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Risky IL-76 Take-off Captured on Video

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Risky IL-76 Take-off Captured on Video

Old 14th Feb 2008, 20:45
  #61 (permalink)  
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Can somebody please explain what is wrong? The pilot took off from the piano keys, so what? I'm sure he/she calculated their V-speeds and based on them performed the takeoff. If they weren't up to standard then they would not be flying to a place like New Zealand...
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Old 14th Feb 2008, 20:47
  #62 (permalink)  
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When approaching performance limiting weights it is important to "fly by the numbers" for safety reasons. It seems the crew did exactly that, line up on the numbers on one end of the runway, apply max chat, rotate on numbers at other end of runway. They are to be congratulated for their professionalism under exacting conditions. Well done, pass me another bottle.
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Old 14th Feb 2008, 20:54
  #63 (permalink)  
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Remember that balanced field length requires to be able to clear the far end at 35 feet in case of critical engine failure. A four engine aircraft is that looses one engine (25% of thrust) is able to do that farther down the runway than a 2 engine that looses 50% of power in case of engine failure.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 07:39
  #64 (permalink)  
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Depends on your definition of the "far end", doesn't it?

In any case, what none of us in our armchairs can know is at what point the aircraft passed V1.

Unless shown otherwise, I would assume that there was sufficient runway plus stopway in front of that aircraft at that point (V1) to bring it to a safe halt with 1 engine inop, instead of heaving it off the ground with them all working. In short, I assume that that it was all properly calculated by the crew or dispatcher.

In the 1980s, DC8 departures from Exeter used to be similarly exciting on 26, but 26 had, at that time, a TODA of 150% of the TORA.

At a risk of thread drift, the problem in these cases is whether or not the stopway really is up to the job. Some are not, if they go beyond the paved surface so as to engineer a longer TORA.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 08:54
  #65 (permalink)  
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Some years ago at Amsterdam.
Tower: "KLM 123. Will you be taking off from the end of Runway 01 Left?"
"No sir. I'll be taking off from the beginning."

Jack Harrison
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 09:39
  #66 (permalink)  
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Ah! The luxury of always using balanced field. When I was a lad we had Vgo and Vstop. If you were lucky the former came before the latter; if the other way round it was called "The area of service risk". In this case you just made sure that the TOR was no more than 90% of TORA. On a calm day at Masirah or Gan the temperature above the black runway was inevitably much more than in the met man's little gizmo with predictable results. When I was a copilot we once used a bit of desert beyond the end of the El Adem runway even though I had done my sums and expressed strong doubts (Pre CRM of course). Thank heaven for large, low pressure tires. When Mk1 Victor Tankers took off from such airfields it seemed as though most of the station personnel would gather at the far end to watch the fun.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 11:28
  #67 (permalink)  
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Some years ago at Amsterdam.
Tower: "KLM 123. Will you be taking off from the end of Runway 01 Left?"
"No sir. I'll be taking off from the beginning."

Jack Harrison
In the end I imagine, he took off from the middle somewhere! Unlike our friend. Oldbutnotbold's point is fair. Maybe he did hold it down after V1. But some of the comments here indicated that using all or most of the runway is not uncommon among certain ad hoc operators. So the jury is still out on the subject.

I think the video neatly indicates the difference between what an individual aeroplane is capable of on a given day if all goes well and what is best practice on a daily basis spread over a worldwide fleet of thousands.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 11:41
  #68 (permalink)  
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Surprising ATC didn't initiate the crash alarm, but I don't know exactly what their rules are.
Somehow I think that the people in the tower knew this was going to happen. They were filming, they were making funny remarks, and at the end one chap remarks that he would have not believed it if he hadn't seen it. They probably see this all the time with this operator, so one day they decided to film it.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 15:21
  #69 (permalink)  
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They were probably filming it because of the unusual nature of the flight...I don`t suppose there would be many Il76 movements at Canberra?

If I were the tower controller, I would have at least had one eye on the crash button (mental checklist; anything between me and it, like a cup of coffee....happened to me once) as soon as it started to look out of the ordinary.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 16:54
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Seems like maybe the russians don't do performance calculations with the same criteria or in the same way that we do. It reminds me of another russian airplane - IL96 methinks??? - doing precisely the same thing as this bugger..... basically getting unsticked on the piano keys.... at Phuket runway 27


Maybe they don't consider the engine out case at all???????
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 17:25
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Just blame it on the copilot! He probably forgot the "ROTATE" callout.
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 22:06
  #72 (permalink)  
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Re the Il-86

Note the comment about it saying "GO" at the end of the runway!
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 23:33
  #73 (permalink)  
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They need to get this feet / meters conversion sorted or one day someone will get hurt
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Old 15th Feb 2008, 23:59
  #74 (permalink)  
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Sounds to me like quite a of you know little of aircraft performance in limiting cases, particularly say, US aircraft certified to SFAR 422B, or early versions of FAR 25.

A QANTAS 707-338C, departing the old Brisbane Eagle Farm, at WAT limits, would only have the squat switches release (you could hear the landing gear lever latch release) as the threshold markers passed your peripheral vision out the side cockpit windows.

Likewise a B747-238 with a water injection take-off at Cairns, tailwind component on 33, or the old Athens on a hot night ---- where QF paid to have a couple of trees cut down --- they were below the gradient envelope --- but just in case. In the Cairns case, viewed from the Bushie's Bar, it was quite a sight, lots of red dust blown up beyond the end of 33 --- 15 being out of the question due obstacles.

No early generation jet, east of west, had the performance margins of current certification.

Tootle pip!!

PS: And don't forget "overspeed" Vr for improved second segment climb, then common, not often now needed, even in hot and high conditions.
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 11:08
  #75 (permalink)  
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Led sled just beat me to it. Nobody here ever used "Improved climb" performance?? By the looks of that high ground ahead they might have been doing a standard company procedure. V1 is called as usual for the rwy length, but it then seems like forever before reaching Vr. It's quite normal to see the rwy end coming up fast!
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 11:54
  #76 (permalink)  
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Is it not the case that the TORR for the all engine case is not that significantly different from the OEI on a 4 holer rather than a twin. And before anybody jumps down my throat, unless you work for the manufacturer you dont get to see the data

Could that difference be exagerrated by a take off technique different to that in testing. Slow rotate?

Clearway anyone?
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 11:54
  #77 (permalink)  
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Improved climb performance is fine. And legal as well.
But you will still need to meet the requirement of a 35 foot clearance height over the threshold with one engine out. And therefore an even higher clearance over the threshold with all engines running! In no way should an airplane cross the threshold at such a low height.

The takeoff of the 747 in bournemouth may look "low", but actually it does cross the threshold at a greater height than 35 ft. It's just that the 747 is so big that it fools the observer in thinking it is too low.

The phuket takeoff photo is just crazy. and so is this one in canberra.
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 11:56
  #78 (permalink)  
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I thought that the "35 feet height at the far end" relates to the end of the TODA, not the TORA. A 'balanced field length' is simply the definition of when the TORA and TODA correspond at a particular airfield is it not?

In this case as the TODA is far greater than the TORA, rotation very near the end of TORA is not particularly surprising.
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 12:03
  #79 (permalink)  
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Quite a few years I think

From the look of the buildings in the background where the GA area is relatively sparsely built up, and the two Chinooks in the foreground I think the footage must date from quite a few years ago, perhaps during the 1990's?

Haven't seen Chinooks around Canberra for quite a few years, even for display purposes.
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Old 16th Feb 2008, 12:17
  #80 (permalink)  
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Some of the present day departures from Alice Springs can be interesting, especially in mid-summer. 2,438 metres long, 40 degrees Centigrade plus, 1,789' elevation, little or nil wind or worse fluctuating between ends.

I have watched quite a few 737, 717 and other assorted aircraft fast approaching the departure end before rotating.

On one ocassion I was taxying in listening to a 737 asking about whether the temp had decreased. They needed another two degrees reduction otherwise it was bag chucking time.
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