Risky IL-76 Take-off Captured on Video
Fullwings, If I dig out my old 707 AFM perhaps I can find A few cases where AEO limits TOD instead of OEI as this phenomenon was a common occurrence in older type
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IL76 vs. Nimrod
I've watched this video and the thread with a chuckle and some interest.
As a comparison, many years ago I was in Gibraltar, and one day watched a Nimrod depart for a 10 hour mission. The runway is 6000 ft. long, and he rotated well beyond the 1000 ft to go marker, then climbed away at about the climb angle in the IL76 video.
In the mess the next night, I encountered the pilot and allowed as to how we would likely have gotten wet if he had suffered an engine failure.
He responded "Not at all, old chap. We are using reduced thrust departures to save engine life. Upon failure of an engine, we would simply have firewalled the other three."
I still thought it was a slightly sporty departure, but those Nimrod crews were always aggressive.
As a comparison, many years ago I was in Gibraltar, and one day watched a Nimrod depart for a 10 hour mission. The runway is 6000 ft. long, and he rotated well beyond the 1000 ft to go marker, then climbed away at about the climb angle in the IL76 video.
In the mess the next night, I encountered the pilot and allowed as to how we would likely have gotten wet if he had suffered an engine failure.
He responded "Not at all, old chap. We are using reduced thrust departures to save engine life. Upon failure of an engine, we would simply have firewalled the other three."
I still thought it was a slightly sporty departure, but those Nimrod crews were always aggressive.
With an engine failure on a reduced thrust t/o the whole point is that you don't have to touch the throttles to acheive the necessary climb gradient. Also, if there is a difference between V1 and Vr there wont be any hands on the throttles to push them forward after V1.
Somebody does not know what they are talking about.
Somebody does not know what they are talking about.
With an engine failure on a reduced thrust t/o the whole point is that you don't have to touch the throttles to acheive the necessary climb gradient
difference between V1 and Vr there wont be any hands on the throttles to push them forward after V1.
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Well its a fact that in the plane I fly, which is an Airbus twin, we don't have to push the remaining throttle forward if we loose one after V1. The Flex Take-off thrust on the remaining engine is sufficient make all required gradients.
Capn Bloggs.
With a V1 cut nowhere does it say push the other one to the max! On the contrary the other engine may be already at max rated thrust and firewalling your possibly one remaining good engine is only for use as a last (desparate) measure. Your one good engine should be reduced to MCT (Maximum Continuous Thrust) as soon as possible when aircraft config and performance requirements allow.
Pushing throttles to the max is for Hollywood and life preservation GPWS/Windshear etc. If you have to do it for an engine failure you have porked something up!
With a V1 cut nowhere does it say push the other one to the max! On the contrary the other engine may be already at max rated thrust and firewalling your possibly one remaining good engine is only for use as a last (desparate) measure. Your one good engine should be reduced to MCT (Maximum Continuous Thrust) as soon as possible when aircraft config and performance requirements allow.
Pushing throttles to the max is for Hollywood and life preservation GPWS/Windshear etc. If you have to do it for an engine failure you have porked something up!
short flights long nights
yes...just like Boeing..all Boeings
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Airbrake,
Don't really agree with you that pushing the throttles to max is only done when you porked it up or to be used by Hollywood.
The SOP's my colleagues and I operate to require us to select TOGA after an engine failure on take-off. This is one of the first steps the PNF does when this emergency arises.
The aircraft involved are both the minibus and the bigbus and even without selecting TOGA on the remaining engine we still make the requirements. However it gives you just a bit more performance.
And firewalling the engine is no big deal as (with no failures in the system) the FADEC looks nicely after the engine and prevents any excedance's.
Don't really agree with you that pushing the throttles to max is only done when you porked it up or to be used by Hollywood.
The SOP's my colleagues and I operate to require us to select TOGA after an engine failure on take-off. This is one of the first steps the PNF does when this emergency arises.
The aircraft involved are both the minibus and the bigbus and even without selecting TOGA on the remaining engine we still make the requirements. However it gives you just a bit more performance.
And firewalling the engine is no big deal as (with no failures in the system) the FADEC looks nicely after the engine and prevents any excedance's.
I am not familiar with the Bus but as you say pressing TOGA is belt and braces and not necessary to meet perf A requirements. Particularly as I assume it will do nothing if you are already using full thrust and pressed TOGA at the start of the t/o roll.
FADEC may well protect engine limitations but firewalling an engine is unnecessary and a somewhat agricultural way of going about things!
FADEC may well protect engine limitations but firewalling an engine is unnecessary and a somewhat agricultural way of going about things!
Have read with interest the discussion re. "firewalling the throttles" after an engine failure on a Flex-Thrust take-off.
Starting with the Nimrod out of Gibraltar -
1) Yes, being military they might not have been complying with Performance A rules.
2) You twin-engine guys have to remember that, on 4-engine types, the loss of one engine makes much less difference to the performance after V1. On the B707-320C, V1 was often uncomfortably close to VR (God knows how we would have stopped sometimes), so the lift-off point wouldn't have changed enormously.
3) The RR Spey, being a British engine, does permit the throttles to be "fire-walled" without over-boosting the engine (think of the BAC1-11).
On the general topic of what you should do after an engine failure with Flex Thrust, there is absolutely no doubt that, subject to your company's SOPs, you have a choice of sticking with Flex Thrust; or selecting 'TOGA'; the performance is based on Flex being maintained. In this age of FADEC/EEC, the pilot can generally push the thrust lever fully forward without over-boosting, even on an American engine. I remember a discussion in 1987 on the Franco-American CFM-56 for the A320. Air France (I think) insisted that it should be possible to exceed TOGA in a dire emergency. They wanted the throttles to have an extra gate, beyond TOGA. This would have been "firewalling" in the true sense. The rest of us considered TOGA was sufficient.
[For those of you who haven't been there already, you might take a look at the De-Rated Thrust thread in Tech Log. It also covers Flex Thrust.]
Starting with the Nimrod out of Gibraltar -
1) Yes, being military they might not have been complying with Performance A rules.
2) You twin-engine guys have to remember that, on 4-engine types, the loss of one engine makes much less difference to the performance after V1. On the B707-320C, V1 was often uncomfortably close to VR (God knows how we would have stopped sometimes), so the lift-off point wouldn't have changed enormously.
3) The RR Spey, being a British engine, does permit the throttles to be "fire-walled" without over-boosting the engine (think of the BAC1-11).
On the general topic of what you should do after an engine failure with Flex Thrust, there is absolutely no doubt that, subject to your company's SOPs, you have a choice of sticking with Flex Thrust; or selecting 'TOGA'; the performance is based on Flex being maintained. In this age of FADEC/EEC, the pilot can generally push the thrust lever fully forward without over-boosting, even on an American engine. I remember a discussion in 1987 on the Franco-American CFM-56 for the A320. Air France (I think) insisted that it should be possible to exceed TOGA in a dire emergency. They wanted the throttles to have an extra gate, beyond TOGA. This would have been "firewalling" in the true sense. The rest of us considered TOGA was sufficient.
[For those of you who haven't been there already, you might take a look at the De-Rated Thrust thread in Tech Log. It also covers Flex Thrust.]
I hope everyone considering firewalling the TL's during EFATO events is heeding the Vmc[a,g] limitations at low RTOWs whilst applying derates
During a reduced thrust TO remember that while the assumes temperature method allows for max thrust, as was determined at a particular Vmc
A Vmcg that was scheduled according to a particular derate
..but follow SOPS/AFM guidance and this is very type/Co specific stuff that I wont get in to
I apologize for being slightly off topic
During a reduced thrust TO remember that while the assumes temperature method allows for max thrust, as was determined at a particular Vmc
A Vmcg that was scheduled according to a particular derate
..but follow SOPS/AFM guidance and this is very type/Co specific stuff that I wont get in to
I apologize for being slightly off topic
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Airbrake,
We normally do a reduced thrust take-off (Flex) and during the engine failure (on take-off) the PNF selects TOGA. Giving us all the thrust available.
Nearly all our take-offs are at, or close to, MTOW and every extra bit of thrust you can get is more than welcome.
We normally do a reduced thrust take-off (Flex) and during the engine failure (on take-off) the PNF selects TOGA. Giving us all the thrust available.
Nearly all our take-offs are at, or close to, MTOW and every extra bit of thrust you can get is more than welcome.
Hi Pugilistic Animus,
You are, I think, correct for the De-Rated thrust case, where new VMCG and VMCA would (other posters say) be calculated for the De-Rate.
But the rules for Flex Thrust (the one which uses the so-called "Assumed Temperature" method) are different, and the rated Thrust VMCG and VMCA are retained.
Join us on the "De-Rated power settings question" thread in the Tech Log forum? Not much to do with the IL-76, perhaps...
PS
By the way, I think jb5000 [Feb20/1606z & Feb21/1606z] was right about the 4-engine case RULES sometimesbeing more limiting than the 3-engine case, because of the extra margin required. We sometimes had that situation on the B707-320C.
You are, I think, correct for the De-Rated thrust case, where new VMCG and VMCA would (other posters say) be calculated for the De-Rate.
But the rules for Flex Thrust (the one which uses the so-called "Assumed Temperature" method) are different, and the rated Thrust VMCG and VMCA are retained.
Join us on the "De-Rated power settings question" thread in the Tech Log forum? Not much to do with the IL-76, perhaps...
PS
By the way, I think jb5000 [Feb20/1606z & Feb21/1606z] was right about the 4-engine case RULES sometimesbeing more limiting than the 3-engine case, because of the extra margin required. We sometimes had that situation on the B707-320C.
Last edited by Chris Scott; 23rd Feb 2008 at 18:35. Reason: PS, re. 4-engine rules vs 3-eng rules. Vmca added.
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These OLD NOISY SMOKEY & UNDER-PERFORMING Aircraft NEED TO BE BANNED from Major Airports, at once!!
And this includes more of the remaining Russian Junk of Metal still flying around, waiting for SOMETHING SERIOUS TO HAPPEN!
And this includes more of the remaining Russian Junk of Metal still flying around, waiting for SOMETHING SERIOUS TO HAPPEN!
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Starts with 
2001 and ends with...
2003
DILI (Reuters) - A cargo plane crashed into mountains while
approaching an airfield in East Timor on Friday, killing all six Russian
crew, officials said. They said the Russian Ilyushin-76 aircraft
crashed in the middle of the afternoon in thick fog near Baucau
airfield, about 60 miles east of the capital Dili. "Six people were
killed and all were Russian,"
as an example... I used to just shake my head at the East Timor goings on...
2001 and ends with... 2003DILI (Reuters) - A cargo plane crashed into mountains while
approaching an airfield in East Timor on Friday, killing all six Russian
crew, officials said. They said the Russian Ilyushin-76 aircraft
crashed in the middle of the afternoon in thick fog near Baucau
airfield, about 60 miles east of the capital Dili. "Six people were
killed and all were Russian,"
as an example... I used to just shake my head at the East Timor goings on...
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If the plane doesn't take off at the end of the runway, shouldn't the runway be cracked down to forbid the aircraft to take off? Isn't that a normal design practise for all runway?
As a comparison, many years ago I was in Gibraltar, and one day watched a Nimrod depart for a 10 hour mission. The runway is 6000 ft. long, and he rotated well beyond the 1000 ft to go marker, then climbed away at about the climb angle in the IL76 video.
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Fullwings, If I dig out my old 707 AFM perhaps I can find A few cases where AEO limits TOD instead of OEI as this phenomenon was a common occurrence in older type
This was common on the old straight-pipe intercontinental models....up close and personal with the far end of the runway at heavy weights was also common.
Hi Chris,
I have updated my viewing of the derate/RT thread and saw the point about Vmcg, that thread a very interesting confluence of the 'heavy weights' I have been reading ever since with keen interest
I thought the TODR accounted for the most limiting conditions, with the first segment occurring over clearway and the screen/ fence at the end of the TODA if OEI limits, or with [CAA-rules] all engines the clearway can be overflown for the 15% margins but with AEO screen speeds/heights so the TODR would have to account for what ever is limiting...
I like perf A stuff because the FAR TORA can leave a lot to be desired especially when dealing with RWY contamination,....
Also thanks for the additional performance info concerning airbus types!
PA
411A, thanks
I knew I wasn't crazy [yet]
I have updated my viewing of the derate/RT thread and saw the point about Vmcg, that thread a very interesting confluence of the 'heavy weights' I have been reading ever since with keen interest
I thought the TODR accounted for the most limiting conditions, with the first segment occurring over clearway and the screen/ fence at the end of the TODA if OEI limits, or with [CAA-rules] all engines the clearway can be overflown for the 15% margins but with AEO screen speeds/heights so the TODR would have to account for what ever is limiting...
I like perf A stuff because the FAR TORA can leave a lot to be desired especially when dealing with RWY contamination,....
Also thanks for the additional performance info concerning airbus types!
PA
411A, thanks
I knew I wasn't crazy [yet]