BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Twilight Zone
Age: 57
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Super Stall.
I would have never have imagined that I would be voting for and willing to go on strike. But the BA managers have given me no option but to do just that.
I like many others am just simply tired of the constant attacks on our terms and conditions. Every few months its yet something else that they want from us. We work our bollocks off going the extra mile to keep the show on the road. Many pilots are stood down because they hit the 900hr mark.
And yet you repay our loyalty with yet more classic Harvard outsourcing cr*p like this.
I have my strike fund in place. I don't want to, but I will.
I am disgusted in the management that it has come to this.
I would have never have imagined that I would be voting for and willing to go on strike. But the BA managers have given me no option but to do just that.
I like many others am just simply tired of the constant attacks on our terms and conditions. Every few months its yet something else that they want from us. We work our bollocks off going the extra mile to keep the show on the road. Many pilots are stood down because they hit the 900hr mark.
And yet you repay our loyalty with yet more classic Harvard outsourcing cr*p like this.
I have my strike fund in place. I don't want to, but I will.
I am disgusted in the management that it has come to this.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't want to, but I will.
Thoroughly disgusted with the short-termist bonus-seeking greedy contemptuous management who have no loyalty to or interest in BA beyond lining their own pockets.
We work bloody hard to keep this airline going and this is the thanks we get.
Reap what you've sown.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: desert climate
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can see the BA side to this... the answer is predicting and controlling costs.
If the Openskys pilots are placed on the mainline seniority list and openskys is open to mailine pilots as a bid then training costs will soar.
Lets face it most openskys first officers would be bidding straight into mainline as soon as their (presumed) 5 year freeze is up, these pilots have to be replaced and ratings / training is a big cost. Also with mainline pilots taking commands in openskys they will be there for again say 5 years then bidding back to mainline, this generates costs on both sides to mainline and openskys. By keeping openskys a seperate entity these costs can be predicted and controlled.
I cannot see a mainline pilot giving up his pension rights to go for a command in openskys either.... next Balpa will be demanding that the "mainline" pilots retain their company pension contributions whilst working for openskys.... then open skys will want the same deal etc again costs soar.
I can see the fear of the mainline pilots over the threat of openskys to their t and c. Perhaps a different approach will be needed... an agreement that openskys will never operate into UK airfields? never "W" pattern into the UK etc? and it is kept an entirely seperate entity in europe with no rights either way of pilots transferring to mainline or vice versa.
If the Openskys pilots are placed on the mainline seniority list and openskys is open to mailine pilots as a bid then training costs will soar.
Lets face it most openskys first officers would be bidding straight into mainline as soon as their (presumed) 5 year freeze is up, these pilots have to be replaced and ratings / training is a big cost. Also with mainline pilots taking commands in openskys they will be there for again say 5 years then bidding back to mainline, this generates costs on both sides to mainline and openskys. By keeping openskys a seperate entity these costs can be predicted and controlled.
I cannot see a mainline pilot giving up his pension rights to go for a command in openskys either.... next Balpa will be demanding that the "mainline" pilots retain their company pension contributions whilst working for openskys.... then open skys will want the same deal etc again costs soar.
I can see the fear of the mainline pilots over the threat of openskys to their t and c. Perhaps a different approach will be needed... an agreement that openskys will never operate into UK airfields? never "W" pattern into the UK etc? and it is kept an entirely seperate entity in europe with no rights either way of pilots transferring to mainline or vice versa.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go get 'em boys and girls...and for the rest of us stakeholders around the world, let us not be mere spectators - THIS AFFECTS EACH OF US.
Rattle the cages of your union executives and let's see tangible support from all quarters for these who stand in defiance of corporate greed for, indeed, they stand for us all.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Rattle the cages of your union executives and let's see tangible support from all quarters for these who stand in defiance of corporate greed for, indeed, they stand for us all.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Sir Winston Churchill
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Morton-in-Marsh
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread is full of postings by self-righteous pilots, who give the profession a bad name. BA pilots may be quite professional, as a whole, but many of those posting outrageous statements here don't deserve the accolade of "professional".
I don't work for BA, but I do fly with them sometimes. I am a professional pilot with another organisation. I find BA to be well run once you get into the aircraft: the pilots and the cabin crew seem to be of a different quality than the management.
But having said that, why are 50 or so of the several thousand strong pilots making such a fuss about a small operation, which as someone else has said, is unlikely to succeed. Bear in mind, BA management is crap. So why should a pokey operation with a couple of B757s be threatening to anyone?
Furthermore, Openskies is not BA. It is (I believe) a different airline completely, and not to be based in the UK. As such how can BA pilots legally strike? They work for BA, not Openskies, and whatever you think may happen in the future, you can't or shouldn't strike just because you think something MIGHT happen. That is anarchy.
And that is why I think the small proportion of BA pilots who have shown themselves up to be pretty appalling individuals in this thread should be scorned by their more sensible colleagues. There is an element of hysteria here, and this is not something I feel comforting if I am flying with BA.
Final point is that is it any surprise that pilots are often treated like lepers by airline management?
I don't work for BA, but I do fly with them sometimes. I am a professional pilot with another organisation. I find BA to be well run once you get into the aircraft: the pilots and the cabin crew seem to be of a different quality than the management.
But having said that, why are 50 or so of the several thousand strong pilots making such a fuss about a small operation, which as someone else has said, is unlikely to succeed. Bear in mind, BA management is crap. So why should a pokey operation with a couple of B757s be threatening to anyone?
Furthermore, Openskies is not BA. It is (I believe) a different airline completely, and not to be based in the UK. As such how can BA pilots legally strike? They work for BA, not Openskies, and whatever you think may happen in the future, you can't or shouldn't strike just because you think something MIGHT happen. That is anarchy.
And that is why I think the small proportion of BA pilots who have shown themselves up to be pretty appalling individuals in this thread should be scorned by their more sensible colleagues. There is an element of hysteria here, and this is not something I feel comforting if I am flying with BA.
Final point is that is it any surprise that pilots are often treated like lepers by airline management?
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: EU
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Leadership Team have forced me into a corner, I have a fund in place that gives me comfort in going for their throats!
Better to make a stand now than to accept a decline in conditions across the entire industry. If BA succeed then everyone else will fall in line and do the same.
Better to make a stand now than to accept a decline in conditions across the entire industry. If BA succeed then everyone else will fall in line and do the same.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...you can't or shouldn't strike just because you think something MIGHT happen.
Last edited by Human Factor; 15th Jan 2008 at 21:04.
Controversial, moi?
Riverboat, you are making the same mistake as others in saying that OpenLies is not a threat. Read about QANTAS/Jetstar and then come back and say the same thing. The parallels are striking.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Morton-in-Marsh
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, I haven't been asleep. In fact I have read the whole lot from start to finish, and, to be honest, I am appalled by the nasty postings. By all means stand up for your rights when there is a genuine actual threat, but not just a possible threat. What do you expect to happen to you? Terms and Conditions decimated because you didn't strike now? If T & Cs are rewritten, that is the time to take action. In this day and age it is hard for a company to tread down on its staff. Why not just keep a close eye on things and then consider action when you are directly threatened? This will be just as effective and, in this case, legitimate. Striking now would be stupid: it would be illegal, and the public would not support you. Management, and the much of the rest of BA staff (who have been denigrated) would just shake their heads and say - "pilots!"
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am always amazed at how little fuss there is from the middle class as it is beset on all sides by the greed of corporations, the corruption of their executives and the indifference and/or outright collusion of governments the world over - never mind the oppressive burden of taxation it bears.
Wait for the T's & C's to change and then kick up a fuss? Bollocks...fight early and fight hard, BALPA.
Wait for the T's & C's to change and then kick up a fuss? Bollocks...fight early and fight hard, BALPA.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Riverboat
Why do you think BA do not want a common seniority list? We are not even suggesting what the terms and conditions for Openskies should be. So a BA mainline pilot bidding to work for the new company would not be costing any more than an outside pilot.
The reason BA do not want the common seniority list, is that they want to drive down BA mainline's terms and conditions, by playing one airline off against another. If you cannot see this, then there is not a lot of point in any discussion about it, because it IS FACT.
I hold a significant number of BA shares, and as a shareholder, I am gobsmacked that the leadership team would push (perhaps it's most loyal) workforce to strike action over this. It is clear we cannot afford to lose this battle. BA would like to win, but we simply CANNOT lose. We have given so much to this company since 9/11, and now they are choosing to waste all that effort with these strikes.
Unless they back down, BA are going to wish they had never even thought up the concept of Openskies.
They will not win this battle, it is simply a case of how much cash they are going spew, before that fact dawns on them.
Why do you think BA do not want a common seniority list? We are not even suggesting what the terms and conditions for Openskies should be. So a BA mainline pilot bidding to work for the new company would not be costing any more than an outside pilot.
The reason BA do not want the common seniority list, is that they want to drive down BA mainline's terms and conditions, by playing one airline off against another. If you cannot see this, then there is not a lot of point in any discussion about it, because it IS FACT.
I hold a significant number of BA shares, and as a shareholder, I am gobsmacked that the leadership team would push (perhaps it's most loyal) workforce to strike action over this. It is clear we cannot afford to lose this battle. BA would like to win, but we simply CANNOT lose. We have given so much to this company since 9/11, and now they are choosing to waste all that effort with these strikes.
Unless they back down, BA are going to wish they had never even thought up the concept of Openskies.
They will not win this battle, it is simply a case of how much cash they are going spew, before that fact dawns on them.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Striking now would be stupid...
...it would be illegal...
...and the public would not support you.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
copied and pasted a post by one of my colleagues on the flight ops forum:
Echoeing the comments of my colleagues.
I feel extremely saddened to see it come to this.
You leave me no choice.
Often a backbencher and not quick to jump to a conclusion I've been trying to
get to grips with the issue and thinking of what needs to be done to make it
work for either side.
I cannot see where you want to take this with the current hardline stance.
We've given you every incentive to make OpenSkies a success even if it's an
operation with very tight profit margins initially.
So the only conclusion I can draw is that there must be an ulterior motive
involved. The writing is on the wall : Qantas-Jetstar.
Here I was thinking that maybe we were at the dawn of a very bright start
to the future of British Airways, coming through a patch of very hard decision
making and great sacrifices made by your workforce. Fostering an adult like
relationship between employer and employee.
As indicated by yourselves in the Flight Ops Newsletters, we've led from the
front and led by example. But you seem dead keen to pat us on the back in writing
and stabbing us in the back in doing.
This cannot and will not continue.
Very soon all 3100 pilots will know exactly what there is to lose. And may I remind
you that we will all lose. It could have been a great success for all at the dawn
of T5.
Signed by a truly saddened employee
Echoeing the comments of my colleagues.
I feel extremely saddened to see it come to this.
You leave me no choice.
Often a backbencher and not quick to jump to a conclusion I've been trying to
get to grips with the issue and thinking of what needs to be done to make it
work for either side.
I cannot see where you want to take this with the current hardline stance.
We've given you every incentive to make OpenSkies a success even if it's an
operation with very tight profit margins initially.
So the only conclusion I can draw is that there must be an ulterior motive
involved. The writing is on the wall : Qantas-Jetstar.
Here I was thinking that maybe we were at the dawn of a very bright start
to the future of British Airways, coming through a patch of very hard decision
making and great sacrifices made by your workforce. Fostering an adult like
relationship between employer and employee.
As indicated by yourselves in the Flight Ops Newsletters, we've led from the
front and led by example. But you seem dead keen to pat us on the back in writing
and stabbing us in the back in doing.
This cannot and will not continue.
Very soon all 3100 pilots will know exactly what there is to lose. And may I remind
you that we will all lose. It could have been a great success for all at the dawn
of T5.
Signed by a truly saddened employee
Join Date: May 2004
Location: london
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your cabin crew support you.
Having read threads on three different forums,it is clear you have the support of the BA Cabin Crew.
This will also affect us at some stage and we will no doubt have to fight it also.
You like ourselves are only trying to protect what you have left and what happens next could affect us all.
Strikes have to be the very last resort but BA management seem to have the worlds greatest ability not to listen or act.
One year down the line and our IFS Management have not delivered on their promise and as unreal as it may sound,we are having to ballot again!!.
However our forthcoming dispute I feel may be a small one compared to the 'OpenLies' one you have with them.
I always find you a great bunch to fly with so from one side of the door to the other,may we your cabin crew colleagues wish you well.
WTDWL.
This will also affect us at some stage and we will no doubt have to fight it also.
You like ourselves are only trying to protect what you have left and what happens next could affect us all.
Strikes have to be the very last resort but BA management seem to have the worlds greatest ability not to listen or act.
One year down the line and our IFS Management have not delivered on their promise and as unreal as it may sound,we are having to ballot again!!.
However our forthcoming dispute I feel may be a small one compared to the 'OpenLies' one you have with them.
I always find you a great bunch to fly with so from one side of the door to the other,may we your cabin crew colleagues wish you well.
WTDWL.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Human Factor "you are not expecting public support so going on strike is not an issue!" Tell that to the thousands of passengers you and the other members of BALPA are going to inconvenience by taking strike action which you seem hell bent on doing. Those passengers pay your wages . Life is tough in the airline business as you know so do not weaken the good that you and others have done in the past couple of years to get BA back up on it's feet.
.
I think Riverboat and 757 Flyer have put across some good points and perhaps it would be in keeping with your professionalism as a BA pilot if you accept that we all have opinions and not everybody necessarily agrees with you.
OpenSkies should be a stand alone airline without the baggage (pardon the pun) of BA mainline working practices and management.
I do not know the full history of the Qantas /Jetstar scenario and I have not heard of any threatening noises from Qantas pilots. If I am wrong about this please enlighten me.
.
I think Riverboat and 757 Flyer have put across some good points and perhaps it would be in keeping with your professionalism as a BA pilot if you accept that we all have opinions and not everybody necessarily agrees with you.
OpenSkies should be a stand alone airline without the baggage (pardon the pun) of BA mainline working practices and management.
I do not know the full history of the Qantas /Jetstar scenario and I have not heard of any threatening noises from Qantas pilots. If I am wrong about this please enlighten me.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Life is only tough in the airline business if you're a rank and file employee of the business or one of the poor sots who actually have to use the service on a regular basis.
If you're a private vulture capital fund, a board executive or a corporate officer, the skies are a remarkably more brilliant shade of blue.
That said, we certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience anybody in this little squabble over an acceptable standard of living for ourselves and our families. We may consider doing many things...but inconvenience somebody? Shudder the thought. Back to the drawing board boys...
If you're a private vulture capital fund, a board executive or a corporate officer, the skies are a remarkably more brilliant shade of blue.
That said, we certainly wouldn't want to inconvenience anybody in this little squabble over an acceptable standard of living for ourselves and our families. We may consider doing many things...but inconvenience somebody? Shudder the thought. Back to the drawing board boys...