BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
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What BA is doing with PL is completely within the SCOPE agreement, as they are flying the aeroplanes from mainland Europe. Mainlines t's and c's aren't really under much threat in my opinion. BA have already done this type of thing before, with GO and presently with BA citiflyer....(granted they are taking on very profitable transatlantic routes now).
I fully agree that these pilots should be on the master seniority list, but if BALPA want to strike about it, legally they will have to find something other than the scope agreement to strike about.
I fully agree that these pilots should be on the master seniority list, but if BALPA want to strike about it, legally they will have to find something other than the scope agreement to strike about.
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BALPA represents me and hundreds like me as well as thousands of BA pilots. For some reason BALPA thinks it is better for a new operation with new routes to be flown by pilots who already have huge opportunities, rather than my bunch whose future looks distinctly dodgy.
Of course I respect the rights of BA pilots to try and protect their position. I just don't see why OUR union is indulging in favouritism towards them.
BA money, aircraft, etc maybe, but since when were routes between continental Europe and USA traditional BA routes? This is new work.
Of course I respect the rights of BA pilots to try and protect their position. I just don't see why OUR union is indulging in favouritism towards them.
BA money, aircraft, etc maybe, but since when were routes between continental Europe and USA traditional BA routes? This is new work.
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Mooney - BALPA are well aware of your point, that is why the dispute is about Schedule K of our agreement and not Scope.
Northernboy -
Given that BA proposes that all Lauren promotions will be on merit, not seniority, and DECs will be employed then I don't see it as a particularly good deal for the external recruits as it stands now. Anyone who see's there career as doing 6 transatlantics a month on a 757 is probably desperate already.
You might want to keep in mind that BALPA cannot legally represent Lauren employees in certain countries. If they roll over on this one then they stitch up BALPA members in the UK and cannot do much to help the ones in Europe. This thread is beginning to have echoes of the BAR/BACX debates. BALPA best serves the interests of UK pilots by keeping terms and conditions high and dragging everyone up to the best, not by supporting schemes that drag the T&Cs downwards in the interest of helping a small number of people get a leg up. There is always someone who will do it cheaper and BALPA should be staying well clear of assisting airline management in organising a dash for the bottom.
Northernboy -
If the deal unfairly favours BA mainline over external recruits then there will be no one interested in the job unless they are newly qualified (unlikely with a longhaul operation into JFK) or desperate
BALPA exists to further the interests of all its members, not just those in British Airways
Controversial, moi?
There is much misunderstanding here. Nobody is saying that the jobs are to be protected for BA mainline pilots, nobody is saying that external recruitment cannot happen.
What we are saying is that any pilot recruited from outside BA for OpenLies must be on the BA seniority list i.e. a new recruit from outdside BA will be placed on the BA master seniority list. Some junior BA FOs may well apply for OpenLies but their seat in mainline will have to be filled from somewhere so the jobs in OpenLies will be filled by recruitment either directly into OpenLies or directly into mainline to replace those moving across to OpenLies.
To those saying OpenLies will not affect BA mainline look to the QANTAS/Jetstar sitruation and then come back to this thread.
GO was a completely different kettle of fish as was Cityflyer.
What we are saying is that any pilot recruited from outside BA for OpenLies must be on the BA seniority list i.e. a new recruit from outdside BA will be placed on the BA master seniority list. Some junior BA FOs may well apply for OpenLies but their seat in mainline will have to be filled from somewhere so the jobs in OpenLies will be filled by recruitment either directly into OpenLies or directly into mainline to replace those moving across to OpenLies.
To those saying OpenLies will not affect BA mainline look to the QANTAS/Jetstar sitruation and then come back to this thread.
GO was a completely different kettle of fish as was Cityflyer.
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Handsolo and M.Mouse
I don't think you will find any arguments about joining the master seniority list but it will have to be seen to give equal preference to both existing members and those joining via PL. The DEC recruitment is as I understand it just to get things up and running. Further promotions will be from within. Yes seniority is the most fair way if applied transparantly but other airlines operate without a seniority system, Easyjet being the most well known and they have a large percentage of BALPA members. What would be unfair is to put the PL recruits onto the bottom of the list with seniority frozen for X years and then keep them in the RHS whilst all and sundry from mainline grab the commands.Then after X years, transferring the very bottom of the master list. There is absolutely no point in joining PL under those conditions, the entire operation may as well be crewed entirely from mainline which I doubt that BA would agree to other wise they would not have gone to the trouble of recruiting externally.
To my mind, the best resolution would be for a proportion of commands to be made available to mainline F/O's with all pilots joining the master list from day 1 and then being eligable to transfer over (if they wish to) with seniority dating from their date of joining PL. Whilst operating in PL, the terms and conditions pertaining to that operation would apply. That would give those who wish to stay in PL the opportunity to advance to command whilst allowing those from mainline who fancy a stint the opportunity to do so.
We will have to see what emerges from the negotiations. If Balpa manage to get mainline T/C's for PL then I shall cheer them from the rooftops, I shan't be holding my breath however.
I don't think you will find any arguments about joining the master seniority list but it will have to be seen to give equal preference to both existing members and those joining via PL. The DEC recruitment is as I understand it just to get things up and running. Further promotions will be from within. Yes seniority is the most fair way if applied transparantly but other airlines operate without a seniority system, Easyjet being the most well known and they have a large percentage of BALPA members. What would be unfair is to put the PL recruits onto the bottom of the list with seniority frozen for X years and then keep them in the RHS whilst all and sundry from mainline grab the commands.Then after X years, transferring the very bottom of the master list. There is absolutely no point in joining PL under those conditions, the entire operation may as well be crewed entirely from mainline which I doubt that BA would agree to other wise they would not have gone to the trouble of recruiting externally.
To my mind, the best resolution would be for a proportion of commands to be made available to mainline F/O's with all pilots joining the master list from day 1 and then being eligable to transfer over (if they wish to) with seniority dating from their date of joining PL. Whilst operating in PL, the terms and conditions pertaining to that operation would apply. That would give those who wish to stay in PL the opportunity to advance to command whilst allowing those from mainline who fancy a stint the opportunity to do so.
We will have to see what emerges from the negotiations. If Balpa manage to get mainline T/C's for PL then I shall cheer them from the rooftops, I shan't be holding my breath however.
BALPA represents me and hundreds like me as well as thousands of BA pilots. For some reason BALPA thinks it is better for a new operation with new routes to be flown by pilots who already have huge opportunities, rather than my bunch whose future looks distinctly dodgy.
If I were a Jetstar pilot I might be quite happy with the situation.
The basis of most of the assumptions you are making is that "BA pilots" want to "grab" as much work as possible and keep it for themselves. Fact is, we've got quite enough work on at the moment and to operate the OS flights requires recruitment into OS and/or BA == jobs for EU pilots. The choice is to join OS and that's that or have the possible opportunity to transfer to BA mainline; both choices have the same T&C to start with. Which is preferable to most intelligent people...?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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I don't think you will find any arguments about joining the master seniority list but it will have to be seen to give equal preference to both existing members and those joining via PL.
If PL pilots are on the mainline seniority list they will have equal preference.
MANBLK
You seem to miss the point. Whether or not Lauren is part of the main BA seniority or not it will create jobs that need to be filled. The same number of jobs, filled by commerical pilots. You will have the same chance of getting one of those jobs regardless.
If Lauren is not part of the BA seniority list it will start an erosion of UK terms and conditions that will eventually affect you, regardless of who you work for.
Seems to me you should support the BA guys
You seem to miss the point. Whether or not Lauren is part of the main BA seniority or not it will create jobs that need to be filled. The same number of jobs, filled by commerical pilots. You will have the same chance of getting one of those jobs regardless.
If Lauren is not part of the BA seniority list it will start an erosion of UK terms and conditions that will eventually affect you, regardless of who you work for.
Seems to me you should support the BA guys
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If Lauren pilots are on the BA seniority list, the jobs will inevitably go to the guys who are already on that list because they will have nothing to lose by going there.
I would be amazed if, behind closed doors, the BA CC want to see anyone other than BA pilots flying in Lauren. Why would they?
I see from today's Flight that the BA pilots are worried that the employment of non-BA pilots will involve the recruitment of inexperienced pilots, "putting the BA brand at risk". So to avoid that, let's get a bunch of BA senior first officers who've vegetated in the RHS for far too long and pop them straight into the LHS. Much safer.
I would be amazed if, behind closed doors, the BA CC want to see anyone other than BA pilots flying in Lauren. Why would they?
I see from today's Flight that the BA pilots are worried that the employment of non-BA pilots will involve the recruitment of inexperienced pilots, "putting the BA brand at risk". So to avoid that, let's get a bunch of BA senior first officers who've vegetated in the RHS for far too long and pop them straight into the LHS. Much safer.
And who do you think is going to replace those BA SFO's that move from BA to Lauren. They're not cloned you know, they're DEP's from other airlines, cadets from the ab initio courses or ex forces.
If the Lauren guys are on the BA list it means BA needs more pilots, which means more recruiting, which means movement in other airlines.
My point is whether the Lauren guys are BA or not, the net no. of flying jobs in the UK is the same.
If the Lauren guys are on the BA list it means BA needs more pilots, which means more recruiting, which means movement in other airlines.
My point is whether the Lauren guys are BA or not, the net no. of flying jobs in the UK is the same.
No such thing as a second officer in BA. So Lauren in BA means LoCo capts could if they wanted to join BA and either fly for Lauren or work their way up to Capt in Mainline and all other airlines maintain the status quo, or Lauren not in BA means LoCo capts could Join Lauren probably as f/o's, the Lauren model works and all other airlines suffer a degradation in terms and conditions as a result.
I still think it would be a good idea for you to support the BA guys.
I still think it would be a good idea for you to support the BA guys.
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MANBLK why didnt you say so in the first place instead of circling round the point. It's your own self interest speaking.
(btw I was a low cost captain and moved to a BA first officers position (btw no 2nd officers, it just goes to show how much 'interest' you've had in moving to another airline and its possibilities)
It's not a big deal having 4 bars and getting back to 2. Just mere professional pride and a slight paycut.
It's a BA setup so it's hardly hogging any jobs for anyone else. More aircraft means more jobs means more recruitment. You might be in the RHS for 4/5 years, so what?
The bigger the airline, the more recruitment and cross flow, the more opportunities for all.
Joining the BA master seniority list will be a MASSIVE perk for many.
And not supporting us could very well lead to T&C's in your company to go on the slide...
(btw I was a low cost captain and moved to a BA first officers position (btw no 2nd officers, it just goes to show how much 'interest' you've had in moving to another airline and its possibilities)
It's not a big deal having 4 bars and getting back to 2. Just mere professional pride and a slight paycut.
It's a BA setup so it's hardly hogging any jobs for anyone else. More aircraft means more jobs means more recruitment. You might be in the RHS for 4/5 years, so what?
The bigger the airline, the more recruitment and cross flow, the more opportunities for all.
Joining the BA master seniority list will be a MASSIVE perk for many.
And not supporting us could very well lead to T&C's in your company to go on the slide...
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Locked Door and Shaka Zulu, apologies, RHS not S/O.
Of course it's self-interest. BALPA looks after its own, isn't that self-interest too? Just how many pilots are there out there who would sacrifice their own progress for someone else to benefit? Let's face it, if your company does well and you get promoted, you congratulate yourself on backing the right horse for a change. You don't agonize about the poor pilots elsewhere whose work your company has stolen.
That said, it needs to be a level playing field. BALPA effectively wanting to crew a new venture from within BA is not level, it's a cliff.
Shaka Zulu, my own company's T&C's couldn't slide any further, I can assure you. But if the Company was threatened by a whole bunch of Captains leaving to go to Lauren, the T&C's might actually improve.
Of course it's self-interest. BALPA looks after its own, isn't that self-interest too? Just how many pilots are there out there who would sacrifice their own progress for someone else to benefit? Let's face it, if your company does well and you get promoted, you congratulate yourself on backing the right horse for a change. You don't agonize about the poor pilots elsewhere whose work your company has stolen.
That said, it needs to be a level playing field. BALPA effectively wanting to crew a new venture from within BA is not level, it's a cliff.
Shaka Zulu, my own company's T&C's couldn't slide any further, I can assure you. But if the Company was threatened by a whole bunch of Captains leaving to go to Lauren, the T&C's might actually improve.
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I STILL DONT GET YOU!
If you say that your terms and conditions can't get any worse than they are I have to ask you the question if you have actually checked the difference in pay between a paypoint 1 longhaul f/o in BA or your job?
The total package cut I had was around 600ppm. Okay considering my age and potential.
You'll have to make the figures work.
And it is a level playing field.
You either apply to BA and have the opportunity to fly short/med/long from UK bases or fly for OpenLies out of Europe. The choice is yours if we are all on the same list.
If it expands rapidly then command will be quick for all. If it doesnt then at least you have the possibility to move within the airline to a lifestyle that suits your life better.
I cannot see your problem.
And it's not recruited from within BA for crying out loud. We've already started recruitment again for BA mainline (abt 200 this year) so how can it be crewed from the inside?
WE'RE SHORT!
btw ALL fleets in BA are direct entry positions if they are available. So you might well get to fly the 75/76 for OpenLies if you are succesful during your recruitment for BA.
The only thing that's a cliff is getting through the recruitment process.
Well that's a fact of life that everyone has to deal with.
If you say that your terms and conditions can't get any worse than they are I have to ask you the question if you have actually checked the difference in pay between a paypoint 1 longhaul f/o in BA or your job?
The total package cut I had was around 600ppm. Okay considering my age and potential.
You'll have to make the figures work.
And it is a level playing field.
You either apply to BA and have the opportunity to fly short/med/long from UK bases or fly for OpenLies out of Europe. The choice is yours if we are all on the same list.
If it expands rapidly then command will be quick for all. If it doesnt then at least you have the possibility to move within the airline to a lifestyle that suits your life better.
I cannot see your problem.
And it's not recruited from within BA for crying out loud. We've already started recruitment again for BA mainline (abt 200 this year) so how can it be crewed from the inside?
WE'RE SHORT!
btw ALL fleets in BA are direct entry positions if they are available. So you might well get to fly the 75/76 for OpenLies if you are succesful during your recruitment for BA.
The only thing that's a cliff is getting through the recruitment process.
Well that's a fact of life that everyone has to deal with.
Controversial, moi?
MANBLK, BALPA have not asked for nor expect to achieve mainline Ts & Cs in OpenLies. Given the lower Ts & Cs within the startup venture and, initially at least, limited route structure I doubt very many BA mainline pilots will be interested in either seat. A few may well be for various reasons. Therefore, there will be plenty of positions for those not in BA who care to apply and make the grade. To say BALPA want those positions for BA mainline pilots is as inaccurate as it is a distasteful thought.
Those new employees in OpenLies will have the benefit of being on the BA mainline seniority list. That, long term, offers them protection and influence plus the ability to transfer and also prevents OpenLies being used to drive down all our Ts & Cs.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or just not listening?
Those new employees in OpenLies will have the benefit of being on the BA mainline seniority list. That, long term, offers them protection and influence plus the ability to transfer and also prevents OpenLies being used to drive down all our Ts & Cs.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or just not listening?
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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MANBLK, please re-read the past few posts then repeat after me:
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
Open Skies pilots on the mainline list ARE BA pilots.
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Gentlemen, I'll happily concede that I'm missing a point or two in all this, but please bear in mind that I'm on the outside.
Human Factor, what you have written is obviously 100% comprehensible to you and your colleagues, but is meaningless to me and probably many others. Kindly explain, if possible without portraying me as a complete idiot? I may be one, but treating me as one is unkind.
Human Factor, what you have written is obviously 100% comprehensible to you and your colleagues, but is meaningless to me and probably many others. Kindly explain, if possible without portraying me as a complete idiot? I may be one, but treating me as one is unkind.