BA Pilots to ballot for strike over OpenSkies
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: B Pier
My life's dream to fly a big plane.
In my company,
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
That wouldn't be BA then, or indeed any airline, so it's fair to say your knowledge of the situation is limited at best and most likely non-existant. I always find that those with limited knowledge of a topic should refrain from commenting on said topic.
SSD
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 138
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From: In the countyside
I see the salaries have been put up on another known site today (can't mention the name for fear of advertising). Money dosen't look all that good at all. From a quick glance what most stands out is the salary for an FO who needs 2000hrs and a type rating being £25000. 
Any budding experienced FO's would want a quick dash to the doc to get their head examined to go for that. Captains salary for the type of operation not much better either per say.
It certainly looks like a bold if not cheeky attempt to set a new set of benchmarked conditions for all airlines going forward from an industry leader.
Stick with it guys and good luck with your inevitable strike.
Any budding experienced FO's would want a quick dash to the doc to get their head examined to go for that. Captains salary for the type of operation not much better either per say. It certainly looks like a bold if not cheeky attempt to set a new set of benchmarked conditions for all airlines going forward from an industry leader.
Stick with it guys and good luck with your inevitable strike.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: UK
A strike ballot of all 3,200 British Airways (BA) pilots is to go ahead (29 January) after negotiations to avert a walkout collapsed.
The British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA) says that talks concerning BA’s new OpenSkies operation “are finished,” although the airline insists that: “We are negotiating with BALPA.”
“We have been prepared to accept that a new service will need lower costs to build the business and that BALPA would be able to crew it to meet the BA business case,” said the Union in a statement.
“But we are not prepared to see the pilot body broken up in the way BA plans and are bemused as to why they will not use BA pilots. We hope the BA leadership will think again.”
The original ballot was scheduled for 17 January although this was postponed due to the Boeing 777 incident last week, but a rough timetable, including a legal notice period, could see strike action endorsed some five weeks from today.
Should a strike occur, it would be the first time since 1980, that BA flight deck members have walked out.
That would take any potential action perilously close to BA’s opening of its spectacular new Terminal 5 and plunge the company into chaos at a time when it is looking to put the much-documented Heathrow problems behind it.
BALPA says it fears BA’s aim is to start an outsourcing programme that will change pilot conditions. “BA wants the OpenSkies pilots not trained and experienced as much as those in the mainline,” a BALPA spokesman told ABTN.
“Can a pilot come in from OpenSkies as a Captain? [with BA] The answer is no and he would have to have a training procedure. Most pilots are shareholders and we think the brand will be diluted.”
BA has robustly defended its position and insists that OpenSkies will have no detrimental impact on BA pilots. “We are disappointed that BALPA has confirmed its intention to ballot members for industrial action,” said the airline.
“There is no change to the terms and conditions for BA pilots, which are among the best in the industry.”
But there appears to be a genuine sticking point about whether or not OpenSkies flight crew could in fact work for BA. Calls to the carrier failed to confirm whether this was the case and the airline confined itself to noting: “We have told BALPA that we will offer secondments to BA pilots wishing to work for OpenSkies, with their pensions and seniority protected.
“Open Skies is being launched in a highly competitive market and demands a flexible model to stay ahead of the competition.”
BA will launch OpenSkies in June this year with one 757 operating from either JFK or Newark New York to either Brussels or Paris Charles de Gaulle. A second aircraft will be added later this year, with a total of six 757s sourced from the current BA fleet planned to operate by the end of 2009.
courtesy of ABTnews
Have they released fares yet?
The British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA) says that talks concerning BA’s new OpenSkies operation “are finished,” although the airline insists that: “We are negotiating with BALPA.”
“We have been prepared to accept that a new service will need lower costs to build the business and that BALPA would be able to crew it to meet the BA business case,” said the Union in a statement.
“But we are not prepared to see the pilot body broken up in the way BA plans and are bemused as to why they will not use BA pilots. We hope the BA leadership will think again.”
The original ballot was scheduled for 17 January although this was postponed due to the Boeing 777 incident last week, but a rough timetable, including a legal notice period, could see strike action endorsed some five weeks from today.
Should a strike occur, it would be the first time since 1980, that BA flight deck members have walked out.
That would take any potential action perilously close to BA’s opening of its spectacular new Terminal 5 and plunge the company into chaos at a time when it is looking to put the much-documented Heathrow problems behind it.
BALPA says it fears BA’s aim is to start an outsourcing programme that will change pilot conditions. “BA wants the OpenSkies pilots not trained and experienced as much as those in the mainline,” a BALPA spokesman told ABTN.
“Can a pilot come in from OpenSkies as a Captain? [with BA] The answer is no and he would have to have a training procedure. Most pilots are shareholders and we think the brand will be diluted.”
BA has robustly defended its position and insists that OpenSkies will have no detrimental impact on BA pilots. “We are disappointed that BALPA has confirmed its intention to ballot members for industrial action,” said the airline.
“There is no change to the terms and conditions for BA pilots, which are among the best in the industry.”
But there appears to be a genuine sticking point about whether or not OpenSkies flight crew could in fact work for BA. Calls to the carrier failed to confirm whether this was the case and the airline confined itself to noting: “We have told BALPA that we will offer secondments to BA pilots wishing to work for OpenSkies, with their pensions and seniority protected.
“Open Skies is being launched in a highly competitive market and demands a flexible model to stay ahead of the competition.”
BA will launch OpenSkies in June this year with one 757 operating from either JFK or Newark New York to either Brussels or Paris Charles de Gaulle. A second aircraft will be added later this year, with a total of six 757s sourced from the current BA fleet planned to operate by the end of 2009.
courtesy of ABTnews
Have they released fares yet?
Last edited by opal fruit; 28th January 2008 at 22:09.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: B Pier
That's a tad arrogant and uncalled for,
but that's far from unusual on here from some members of your profession.
Good luck Nigels and Nigella's. Remember, Shamrock unity and resolve beat Willie in 2002 - Speedbird unity and resolve can also prevail.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 12
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From: my world
Visual
Do you really believe EI beat Willie?He turned around a loss making archic organisation(albiet by getting the staff to work harder..which competition dictated ..its the real world now and no more government cheques pouring in caused that,along with the Ryans,ezys etc..a reaction to market/employment changes..)what would you have suggested to bring the cash in?
Then he went to BA, hardly the result of being a beaten CEO?
Nobody likes the current changes,but lets not forget Sabena and what the pilots achieved by digging their heels in.
Do you really believe EI beat Willie?He turned around a loss making archic organisation(albiet by getting the staff to work harder..which competition dictated ..its the real world now and no more government cheques pouring in caused that,along with the Ryans,ezys etc..a reaction to market/employment changes..)what would you have suggested to bring the cash in?
Then he went to BA, hardly the result of being a beaten CEO?
Nobody likes the current changes,but lets not forget Sabena and what the pilots achieved by digging their heels in.
PPRuNe Person
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,273
Likes: 13
From: see roster
Swissair bought Sabena, then went bankrupt. That is why Sabena closed, not because the pilots 'dug their heels in' 
State-owned Sabena was in the red for most of its history. It couldn't survive beyond 9/11.
BA is one of the most profitable airlines in the world. See any difference, Mr Chomnh?
State-owned Sabena was in the red for most of its history. It couldn't survive beyond 9/11.
BA is one of the most profitable airlines in the world. See any difference, Mr Chomnh?
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: Barking
tb10er,
I apologise for any inconvenience you may experience. Whilst we appreciate that you and the other passengers pay our salaries and have a choice about who you fly with, we have reached an impasse with BA which means we have no choice but to either accept their blatantly unfair proposal or go on strike. Clearly, one way or another everyone suffers as a result of the strike but none of us are prepared to give in to BA's bullying and will do whatever we need to do to protect our livelihoods. We hope you will come back to us when this is resolved.
If you want to read more about the reasons behind the dispute, go to www.baplane-bapilot.org
If you have any other ideas of how to get BA to put Open Skies pilots on the Master Seniority List, please post them here as we have exhausted everything other than industrial action.
Dave
I apologise for any inconvenience you may experience. Whilst we appreciate that you and the other passengers pay our salaries and have a choice about who you fly with, we have reached an impasse with BA which means we have no choice but to either accept their blatantly unfair proposal or go on strike. Clearly, one way or another everyone suffers as a result of the strike but none of us are prepared to give in to BA's bullying and will do whatever we need to do to protect our livelihoods. We hope you will come back to us when this is resolved.
If you want to read more about the reasons behind the dispute, go to www.baplane-bapilot.org
If you have any other ideas of how to get BA to put Open Skies pilots on the Master Seniority List, please post them here as we have exhausted everything other than industrial action.
Dave
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 930
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Aviation, seems to be in an era of continuous fighting to maintain terms & conditions of employment. This IMHO is driven by all those on the ground, CEO's included who basically are "wanabes" and wish they were pilots/cabin crew as they percieve that the job is a doddle and a fantatic life style. They do not see why they should pay decent wages to people who are in their opinion doing their hobby as a living. Jelousy is a powfull thing.
We should all look to the shipping industry to see the future of aviation. Once ships were crewed by well paid western seaman. Now they are mostly crewed by far eastern underpaid individuals. The individuals themselves may be equally as competant as those seamen of yesteryear, but their wages are now absolutly awfull for the jobs they are doing.
To use the excuse that the costs must be reduced so the traveling public can have cheaper flights does not hold a lot of water as the % difference in the direct operating costs is not that great. Maybe reducing the excessive number of managers and the CEO's salary, would be of greater benifit to reducing those overheads.
We should all look to the shipping industry to see the future of aviation. Once ships were crewed by well paid western seaman. Now they are mostly crewed by far eastern underpaid individuals. The individuals themselves may be equally as competant as those seamen of yesteryear, but their wages are now absolutly awfull for the jobs they are doing.
To use the excuse that the costs must be reduced so the traveling public can have cheaper flights does not hold a lot of water as the % difference in the direct operating costs is not that great. Maybe reducing the excessive number of managers and the CEO's salary, would be of greater benifit to reducing those overheads.
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 2
From: UK
To use the excuse that the costs must be reduced so the traveling public can have cheaper flights does not hold a lot of water as the % difference in the direct operating costs is not that great.
Maybe reducing the excessive number of managers and the CEO's salary, would be of greater benifit to reducing those overheads.
Your comparison with the Marine Service is a valid one. No-one is owed a living.
SSD
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: T5
tb10er
Please take some time to read about the nub of the issue on www.baplane-bapilot.org
I presume that you aspire to fly 'a big plane' for basically two reasons.
1 Because to fly a big shiny Boeing or Airbus is a career aspiration for many pilots.
Normal and reasonable !
2 That the 'big' airlines pay the better salaries and have better conditions overall.
Why do you think that is the case ?
BA turns over somewhere around £8 BLN a year. We will announce this Friday that we made around £700 MLN profit in the last 9 months. I think we are the most profitable pax airline in the world.
Like you - we had career aspirations to join an airline that would reward us better in the long term. BA and other larger airlines have the revenue and yield to offer better packages. BA is now screwing us over. We have now just been told (with glee by the duty leech) that the pilot managers are driving this money saving conflict - not the leadership team as we had presumed. Classy SS !
Many of us climbed the greasy career ladder that (I would presume?) you are just starting out on. We have gone from !!!!!e flying jobs, to slightly less !!!!!e job, uprooted homes, uprooted families, given up Commands, paid bonds off, etc to end up in BA.
So yes, we receive a better package than many other pilots do - but when the company is trying to screw us over on our pay/pension/rostering (whatever it is this week) - would you prefer that we roll over and accept another Jetstar type situation to occur ? 30 % of QANTAS fleet is now comprised of Jetstar aircraft.
Jetstar pilots receive around 2/3rds of the pay of QANTAS pilots. If you would prefer for us to roll over and let the job that you aspire to having to be decimated in the way Jetstar, Clickair etc have been - you dont understand the problem and are letting the idea that a childhood aspiration of flying a 'big plane' cloud your judgment.
tb10er, please take the time to understand why when so many pilots who go the extra mile - day in - day out (just like you I would guess) - have now had enough of out lying, stealing, morally bankrupt management trying to steal our career aspirations from us - against our SCOPE clause.
We do NOT want to go on strike.
It is quite abhorrent for me to realise that I MUST both tick the box for industrial action and also actually withdraw my labour. It will be the saddest day in my career.
We protect what we have (and lets not forget we are not asking for something new - we are merely asking for our current existing agreements to be honored) for selfish reasons. But if we don't - I can assure you that you will not be aspiring to fly 'big planes' for BA on their aspirational terms and conditions...
Please take some time to read about the nub of the issue on www.baplane-bapilot.org
I presume that you aspire to fly 'a big plane' for basically two reasons.
1 Because to fly a big shiny Boeing or Airbus is a career aspiration for many pilots.
Normal and reasonable !
2 That the 'big' airlines pay the better salaries and have better conditions overall.
Why do you think that is the case ?
BA turns over somewhere around £8 BLN a year. We will announce this Friday that we made around £700 MLN profit in the last 9 months. I think we are the most profitable pax airline in the world.
Like you - we had career aspirations to join an airline that would reward us better in the long term. BA and other larger airlines have the revenue and yield to offer better packages. BA is now screwing us over. We have now just been told (with glee by the duty leech) that the pilot managers are driving this money saving conflict - not the leadership team as we had presumed. Classy SS !
Many of us climbed the greasy career ladder that (I would presume?) you are just starting out on. We have gone from !!!!!e flying jobs, to slightly less !!!!!e job, uprooted homes, uprooted families, given up Commands, paid bonds off, etc to end up in BA.
So yes, we receive a better package than many other pilots do - but when the company is trying to screw us over on our pay/pension/rostering (whatever it is this week) - would you prefer that we roll over and accept another Jetstar type situation to occur ? 30 % of QANTAS fleet is now comprised of Jetstar aircraft.
Jetstar pilots receive around 2/3rds of the pay of QANTAS pilots. If you would prefer for us to roll over and let the job that you aspire to having to be decimated in the way Jetstar, Clickair etc have been - you dont understand the problem and are letting the idea that a childhood aspiration of flying a 'big plane' cloud your judgment.
tb10er, please take the time to understand why when so many pilots who go the extra mile - day in - day out (just like you I would guess) - have now had enough of out lying, stealing, morally bankrupt management trying to steal our career aspirations from us - against our SCOPE clause.
We do NOT want to go on strike.
It is quite abhorrent for me to realise that I MUST both tick the box for industrial action and also actually withdraw my labour. It will be the saddest day in my career.
We protect what we have (and lets not forget we are not asking for something new - we are merely asking for our current existing agreements to be honored) for selfish reasons. But if we don't - I can assure you that you will not be aspiring to fly 'big planes' for BA on their aspirational terms and conditions...
Last edited by Open Lies; 29th January 2008 at 10:46.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 394
Likes: 1
From: UK
<<It is quite abhorrent for me to realise that I MUST both tick the box for industrial action and also actually withdraw my labour. It will be the saddest day in my career.>>
Sometimes, one has to stand up for oneself.
Sometimes, one has to stand up for oneself.
Mach 3
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 624
Likes: 1
From: Stratosphere
The lunacy of this industry never fails to amaze me.
When it costs less to fly to Tenerife than take a bus to Paddington, there is a non-sequiter somewhere in the business model...
Notwthstanding our own industry is responsible for this status quo, I can assure you it wasn't professional pilots who dreamt this up.
So why the hell should we pay for it?
I don't object to the idea that what I should pay for a passage, whatever the form of transport, should bear some resemblance to the cost of such passage.
Unfortunately, it would appear, many do.
This is the bottom line.
When it costs less to fly to Tenerife than take a bus to Paddington, there is a non-sequiter somewhere in the business model...
Notwthstanding our own industry is responsible for this status quo, I can assure you it wasn't professional pilots who dreamt this up.
So why the hell should we pay for it?
I don't object to the idea that what I should pay for a passage, whatever the form of transport, should bear some resemblance to the cost of such passage.
Unfortunately, it would appear, many do.
This is the bottom line.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: Thames Valley
The comparison with the marine service is not a valid one,
as there is simply not enough intrest in the merchant marine officers jobs anymore, you will not be able to find many of them around anymore.(hence the signing up on the ships from officers from Eastern Europe or further away)
As opposed to the pilots jobs, for whom plenty people are availble , with or without experience.
as there is simply not enough intrest in the merchant marine officers jobs anymore, you will not be able to find many of them around anymore.(hence the signing up on the ships from officers from Eastern Europe or further away)
As opposed to the pilots jobs, for whom plenty people are availble , with or without experience.