BA B777 Incident @ Heathrow (merged)
Fly Conventional Gear
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...but let's be clear about this: The statement (and perhaps the fact), has no relevancy whatsoever to the present discussion.
), I just thought it a little harsh on the person who made the original comment about the flaps because the idea wasn't as stupid as some suggested.
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@contacttower
Not at 100ft high!
As said before the best glide speed changes with flapsetting! With Flaps40 on a cessna you would need to fly slower for best glide in comparison to flaps up.
You would therefore need to lower the nose to increase speed.
You are talking about a situation when you are at 600ft in a cessna.
Now just think this 100ft in my cessna is about 1000ft in a jet.
Not at 100ft high!
As said before the best glide speed changes with flapsetting! With Flaps40 on a cessna you would need to fly slower for best glide in comparison to flaps up.
You would therefore need to lower the nose to increase speed.
You are talking about a situation when you are at 600ft in a cessna.
Now just think this 100ft in my cessna is about 1000ft in a jet.
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27L and 27R
I cannot see very well in those pics, but in real, from the air, 27L looks like the runway which helped to save the 777 together with the pilots skills. In real, it looks as the stretch of clear grass before 27L is slightly longer than the one in front of 27R. I am not the only one stating the same in here.
I could be wrong, I have not got the official measurements, but in real life, and looking from the air, it definitely looks as if the stretch of clear grass in front of 27R is shorter than the equivalent on the L.
It might just be an optical illusion but many here stated the same impression.
In a case like this one the availability of the above green stretch of clear wet grass has been a very important factor.
I could be wrong, I have not got the official measurements, but in real life, and looking from the air, it definitely looks as if the stretch of clear grass in front of 27R is shorter than the equivalent on the L.
It might just be an optical illusion but many here stated the same impression.
In a case like this one the availability of the above green stretch of clear wet grass has been a very important factor.
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I think the most overiding thing is that Captain Burkill and his crew did a SUPERB job in what is surely a nightmare situation.
My simplistic view is if you lose power close to the ground you choose a speed and hold it. I'd be interested in what the crew decided that speed should be. Clearly it would be different to the speed they were approaching at - perhaps close to the stall speed for the configuration (assuming they didn't have enough time or confidence to change eg flaps). My concern is the speed seemed to be choosing itself from the tiny amount of information we've been allowed to hear.
The fact they got over the fence means it was pretty good but there is suggestion it was a heavy landing. This will be an interesting sim exercise I guess. I bet somebody's been doing it a few times somewhere in secret today.
What, in hindsight, do you think was the correct way to handle the landing?
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if when gliding a light aircraft with drag flap you subsquently lift the flap the gliding distance will increase.
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There's nothing of significance in it as far as I can see.
This plane would have been making a fully automatic approach with the handling pilot ready to take over if it went pear shape.
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KaptinZZ
Are you looking for a scrap, or merely a smart ar$e?
Are you looking for a scrap, or merely a smart ar$e?
I was basically agreeing with you but additionally pointing out that the idea that RR's rotating machinery itself failed is simply untenable.
Who takes responsibility for programming the FADEC / EEC ?
Re remark not being stupid - understand and agree in the very broad sense regarding what one might learn at PPL school.
In this context however, it can lead people who don't understand transport category flight into all kinds of wrong areas and bad assumptions.
Just trying to maintain a modicum of informed discussion with some balance. So long as those who don't do this for a living ask more questions than make statements I think there is some tolerance from those who fly transport aircraft and who choose to post on PPRuNe, but this industry has a very low tolerance for pronouncements from ignorance, ego or wannabe bravado learned somewhere but not from within the industry. Some posters are finding that out very quickly and we come to know them equally quickly by the quality and timbre of their subsequent responses. There is far too little listening and thoughtful work going on here and it drives away those who could (and have) made intelligent presentations from their experience and knowledge. I've about had it with the nonsense myself. I sense you've got an approach that suspends pronouncment in favour of curiosity though...
In this context however, it can lead people who don't understand transport category flight into all kinds of wrong areas and bad assumptions.
Just trying to maintain a modicum of informed discussion with some balance. So long as those who don't do this for a living ask more questions than make statements I think there is some tolerance from those who fly transport aircraft and who choose to post on PPRuNe, but this industry has a very low tolerance for pronouncements from ignorance, ego or wannabe bravado learned somewhere but not from within the industry. Some posters are finding that out very quickly and we come to know them equally quickly by the quality and timbre of their subsequent responses. There is far too little listening and thoughtful work going on here and it drives away those who could (and have) made intelligent presentations from their experience and knowledge. I've about had it with the nonsense myself. I sense you've got an approach that suspends pronouncment in favour of curiosity though...
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SESMA
British Airways developed the Special Event Search and Master Analysis (SESMA) in the 1970s. Safety Services uses SESMA to publicize data (which BALPA deidentifies) to recognize safety trends and to foster improvements. BASIS and SESMA are complementary, but distinctly different, safety programs.
Safety Services compiles this information into meaningful and valuable data and analysis and publishes a monthly report in a pamphlet called Flywise. Thus, both management and flight crews are informed about the latest perils in the system and are motivated to keep up the good work and avoid what has happened to others. When watching for trends and ways to improve safety, British Airways has solid data with more than 800 Air Safety reports (ASRs) and SESMA inputs a month to draw from.
Safety Services compiles this information into meaningful and valuable data and analysis and publishes a monthly report in a pamphlet called Flywise. Thus, both management and flight crews are informed about the latest perils in the system and are motivated to keep up the good work and avoid what has happened to others. When watching for trends and ways to improve safety, British Airways has solid data with more than 800 Air Safety reports (ASRs) and SESMA inputs a month to draw from.
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Slink Thanks,
Well as you can see already, just getting a 'feel' for how short the aircraft touched down - looking like 7~800 metres now....
Unless the aircraft config. was totally wrong (airbrakes, thrust reversers) then that distance is a fundamental number that represents a combination of lack of power from the norm, and/or wind & thermal activity from that dialled in.
The AIB won't be coming at this from just one angle of 'what went wrong', let's use gold contacts for that switch from now on and everything will be alright...
They'll want to have all their sums add up from every angle, and one is to know exactly how much thrust was calculated as being missing over what period - whether the Flight Recorder gives that figure or not, as a double check and no doubt other methods as a third check too.
Using the a/c config at various points, wind data, and the 777's Lift/Drag polars and how short the plane came in, that isn't too much to do by hand with a sliderule, let alone plugging it in to a flight performance program and integrating the whole profile (which is what they will do).
PS. Ref. above and dirt in engines... Agree! It would not be easily visible evidence anyway. You would be looking more closely at blade erosion and dirt penetration throughout the whole engine.
Not sure what you're going to prove now you've got the numbers though...
Unless the aircraft config. was totally wrong (airbrakes, thrust reversers) then that distance is a fundamental number that represents a combination of lack of power from the norm, and/or wind & thermal activity from that dialled in.
The AIB won't be coming at this from just one angle of 'what went wrong', let's use gold contacts for that switch from now on and everything will be alright...
They'll want to have all their sums add up from every angle, and one is to know exactly how much thrust was calculated as being missing over what period - whether the Flight Recorder gives that figure or not, as a double check and no doubt other methods as a third check too.
Using the a/c config at various points, wind data, and the 777's Lift/Drag polars and how short the plane came in, that isn't too much to do by hand with a sliderule, let alone plugging it in to a flight performance program and integrating the whole profile (which is what they will do).
PS. Ref. above and dirt in engines... Agree! It would not be easily visible evidence anyway. You would be looking more closely at blade erosion and dirt penetration throughout the whole engine.
Out of Trim;
The smiley is very appropriate.
SESMA is an excellent safety program. British Airways is an early pioneer of using downloaded flight data to analyze safety trends. They began this work in the late 50's and have led in this important safety work since the beginning. Today, the regulator, management and the pilots (BALPA) all have access to the data in a safety culture which in my view is second-to-none. It is done in a non-enforcement environment where the truth about what is happening is more important than who is doing it - in fact "who" has no place in safety work.
There are airlines around with advanced FDM Programs which have yet to engage the final step of actually using the data and taking it seriously but that is another thread entirely. SESMA and BASIS as well as the relationship between the regulator, management and the line pilots are industry standards to which other airlines continue to aspire.
Sorry for the thread drift but it's an important piece of background information I think.
The smiley is very appropriate.
SESMA is an excellent safety program. British Airways is an early pioneer of using downloaded flight data to analyze safety trends. They began this work in the late 50's and have led in this important safety work since the beginning. Today, the regulator, management and the pilots (BALPA) all have access to the data in a safety culture which in my view is second-to-none. It is done in a non-enforcement environment where the truth about what is happening is more important than who is doing it - in fact "who" has no place in safety work.
There are airlines around with advanced FDM Programs which have yet to engage the final step of actually using the data and taking it seriously but that is another thread entirely. SESMA and BASIS as well as the relationship between the regulator, management and the line pilots are industry standards to which other airlines continue to aspire.
Sorry for the thread drift but it's an important piece of background information I think.
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aviate1138
Excerpt from The Mail on Sunday website
Don't bother reading it unless you like this sort of
The F/O who was actually the handling pilot rates only a few paragraphs for a short and modest account. Maybe he aint so greedy and has more dignity.
We can relax now as I see in the Mail that the Captain's wife is negotiating with Max Clifford to sell the Captain's story to the Media.
EXCLUSIVE: Former air hostess wife of hero pilot tells of their high-flying romance
On the Bahrain flight, there was an instant attraction between the young air hostess and the dashing pilot, whose resemblance to Mel Gibson she noted.
"Pete got on the plane and I thought, 'I fancy that, he's a bit of all right,' she says.
On the journey back to the UK I went against everything I would normally do and slipped him a note with my number on it.
I knew he had someone but I just couldn't let this person go."
"Pete got on the plane and I thought, 'I fancy that, he's a bit of all right,' she says.
On the journey back to the UK I went against everything I would normally do and slipped him a note with my number on it.
I knew he had someone but I just couldn't let this person go."
The F/O who was actually the handling pilot rates only a few paragraphs for a short and modest account. Maybe he aint so greedy and has more dignity.
I thank the Man Upstairs, says Heathrow crash hero John Coward
"Normally in emergency situations, your training takes over. But training doesn't help much when your engines have just died and you are still short of the runway. I tried to keep the aircraft straight and when we went down I remember thinking, 'This is going to be a major catastrophe.'
All the crew did their job absolutely brilliantly but I think some thanks has to go to the Man Upstairs for giving us that little lift at the end.
I just focused on holding it up in the air as long as possible, then keeping it straight. When we landed there were several thuds. I expected there to be a major catastrophe but there wasn't.
I can't even remember how I got off the plane but there was a fair degree of panic. Then I sat in a room with lots of people rushing around me.
I was staring into space thinking about what I could do, as the adrenaline was still pumping hard."
The modest farmer's son yesterday arrived back at the house in Valbonne in the South of France where he lives with his French wife Valerie, 43, and their three children, feeling "happy but utterly exhausted".
He said: "I had barely got through the door when our nine-year-old daughter Coralie threw her arms around me and said, 'My daddy the hero.' But I don't consider myself a hero at all."
All the crew did their job absolutely brilliantly but I think some thanks has to go to the Man Upstairs for giving us that little lift at the end.
I just focused on holding it up in the air as long as possible, then keeping it straight. When we landed there were several thuds. I expected there to be a major catastrophe but there wasn't.
I can't even remember how I got off the plane but there was a fair degree of panic. Then I sat in a room with lots of people rushing around me.
I was staring into space thinking about what I could do, as the adrenaline was still pumping hard."
The modest farmer's son yesterday arrived back at the house in Valbonne in the South of France where he lives with his French wife Valerie, 43, and their three children, feeling "happy but utterly exhausted".
He said: "I had barely got through the door when our nine-year-old daughter Coralie threw her arms around me and said, 'My daddy the hero.' But I don't consider myself a hero at all."
Last edited by Bronx; 19th Jan 2008 at 23:53.
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Hehe
As a lurking BA pilot with plenty of 777 time, it's amusing me no end to see all the little kids in the playground fighting over who is the most right. Well, one things for sure...flying a 777 has about as much relation to flying a Cessna as driving a sixteen wheeler truck has to taking the pushbike around the block.
Both fun, both very different.
Hours on flight sim number whatever does not a pilot make either.
Hold your horses, the report will be out soon.
An excellent piece of mitigation from the boys. That's all we know for sure.
One thing this whole episode has reminded me...most people know absolutely nothing about my job-if it's as easy as they say, they'd be doing it
As a lurking BA pilot with plenty of 777 time, it's amusing me no end to see all the little kids in the playground fighting over who is the most right. Well, one things for sure...flying a 777 has about as much relation to flying a Cessna as driving a sixteen wheeler truck has to taking the pushbike around the block.
Both fun, both very different.
Hours on flight sim number whatever does not a pilot make either.
Hold your horses, the report will be out soon.
An excellent piece of mitigation from the boys. That's all we know for sure.
One thing this whole episode has reminded me...most people know absolutely nothing about my job-if it's as easy as they say, they'd be doing it
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Well said Dunbar.
Bring the flap up? That's a cool idea... NOT! There you are sat at the correct speed for the configuration and you then bring the flap in a notch to reduce the drag... you'll then put yourself even closer to the stall!
Let's be clear about this, we've all sat at home in a comfortable armchair with a Gin and Tonic and had all the time in the world to think about this incident... John didn't have that luxury!
Bring the flap up? That's a cool idea... NOT! There you are sat at the correct speed for the configuration and you then bring the flap in a notch to reduce the drag... you'll then put yourself even closer to the stall!
Let's be clear about this, we've all sat at home in a comfortable armchair with a Gin and Tonic and had all the time in the world to think about this incident... John didn't have that luxury!
chippy63;
Our Trent RB211 installation on the A330 uses EPR to set power. EPR is a ratio of pressures between engine internal pressures and outside atmospheric pressure and so is dependant upon a number of varying conditions in both, but an associated N1 reading on approach would around 51 to 55% depending upon weight, flap setting and to a tiny degree, headwind. A very light aircraft (330) on approach, (160,000kg), might see 45 to 50% N1....all very rough figures.
Our Trent RB211 installation on the A330 uses EPR to set power. EPR is a ratio of pressures between engine internal pressures and outside atmospheric pressure and so is dependant upon a number of varying conditions in both, but an associated N1 reading on approach would around 51 to 55% depending upon weight, flap setting and to a tiny degree, headwind. A very light aircraft (330) on approach, (160,000kg), might see 45 to 50% N1....all very rough figures.
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Maybe this is a good time to give some consideration to a section that IS available only to those with a recognized qualification in a relevant part of the aviation world... that would include cabin crew and ground handling not just pilots and engineering staff... having established peoples' bona-fides they would have access to a thread running following an incident such as this... it's been frustrating not having access to Pprune for the past couple of days and also having to sift through some of the lamentable 'contributions' when having finally got access and there's a huge amount to catch up on.....
Maybe also, someone with a lot of time on their hands would like to sift through these pages and start a thread by pasting some of the more side-splitting postings...
Maybe also, someone with a lot of time on their hands would like to sift through these pages and start a thread by pasting some of the more side-splitting postings...