Iberia Aborted Landing in Bilbao
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I agree with Despegue. I love PPrune and it is a great place to discuss all matters aviation. However, I am becoming tired of posts by people who evidentally have very little experience / knowledge but try to pass themselves off as the opposite. By all means ask sensible questions but please leave the discussion to the more learned.......
As for those who pass judgement based on some photos....... please just stop!
VOR to 12 at BIO gusting close to limits. Looks to me like he planted it on the centreline pretty close to the numbers, wings level (double puff of tyre smoke) - not too bad under the conditions I'd say. Perhaps the reason there are no spoilers is that the levers were in TOGA at touchdown as the Go around had been initiated?
Anyone who has not landed at BIO in a gusty conditions is in no position to comment. I had an "interesting" arrival back into the UK one day last year when it was gusting 60+knots (only 30° off mind you
) and if I got back to find my efforts being disected on PPrune by a bunch of ....... whatevers, I'd be pretty pi$$ed off. You weren't there so give the guy a break.
I don't particularly relish going to work when I read the METARS and TAFS and I see gusting 30+..... but I, and numerous other Professional pilots, just get on with it because that is what we are - Professional. By the way, that's what the first P in PPrune also stands for.
The server is on its knees anyway so can we please cut down on the unnecessary cr@p. Thanks.
A4
As for those who pass judgement based on some photos....... please just stop!
VOR to 12 at BIO gusting close to limits. Looks to me like he planted it on the centreline pretty close to the numbers, wings level (double puff of tyre smoke) - not too bad under the conditions I'd say. Perhaps the reason there are no spoilers is that the levers were in TOGA at touchdown as the Go around had been initiated?
Anyone who has not landed at BIO in a gusty conditions is in no position to comment. I had an "interesting" arrival back into the UK one day last year when it was gusting 60+knots (only 30° off mind you
) and if I got back to find my efforts being disected on PPrune by a bunch of ....... whatevers, I'd be pretty pi$$ed off. You weren't there so give the guy a break. I don't particularly relish going to work when I read the METARS and TAFS and I see gusting 30+..... but I, and numerous other Professional pilots, just get on with it because that is what we are - Professional. By the way, that's what the first P in PPrune also stands for.
The server is on its knees anyway so can we please cut down on the unnecessary cr@p. Thanks.
A4
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Yes, the trend of blaming pilots without having a clue what happened by some Sofa-flightcrews specialising in FS2000.
On the other hand, it is you who presume about other people's experience without a clue. Your profile shows you're just a 737 copilot. You still have a long way to go.
N4641P:
Rejected Landing is a correct expression, and it is used in Airbus (and Boeing) manuals and other documents. It is a go around initiated at or below DH and the main gear contacting the runway surface is a possibility.
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Sorry pal, Cpt. B737 and I don't have to relax, I am relaxed, just not willing to put up anymore with the Inquisition that frequents Pprune.
Don't take it personally. Fact is however that more and more people that participate here have no experience in handling commercial aircraft.
Don't take it personally. Fact is however that more and more people that participate here have no experience in handling commercial aircraft.
I fully agree with despegue. Threads like these show how little there is left of the first P in PPRuNe. Sad, but true. Between all the nonsense there are still enough insightful posts by people like A4 that make visiting this site worthwhile, but the signal to noise ratio seems to be worsening by the minute. 
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Yes, the trend of blaming pilots without having a clue what happened by some Sofa-flightcrews specialising in FS2000.
(I fully agree with you though...)Back on topic, it was probably just a go around, and the crew had it right on the centerline. Quite good for those conditions, and great pictures.
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Ref de-crab:
De-crabbing in A32S A/C is performed when flare is initiated. It is sufficient that a trend towards de-crabbing has been started. Into wind aileron is to be avoided, as it commands roll rate.
De-crabbing in A32S A/C is performed when flare is initiated. It is sufficient that a trend towards de-crabbing has been started. Into wind aileron is to be avoided, as it commands roll rate.
Commentary (light hearted)
The pattern I see is the great airmanship demonstrated by both Airbus and Boeing et al pilots the world over, day after day and with increasing workloads too - especially the regional flyers.
The weather figures are not polite for any pilot to land. The photos are dramatic and I draw the expert opinion that the driver wanted to express a little old school Hong Kong style to the photographer. More pilots should express landings in this manner and give us armchair experts more to bicker about
With this internet thing and all the happy snappers about we will see more and more incidents like this that we would otherwise be blissfully unaware of. It gives me more appreciation of what pilots have to contend with every day.
The weather figures are not polite for any pilot to land. The photos are dramatic and I draw the expert opinion that the driver wanted to express a little old school Hong Kong style to the photographer. More pilots should express landings in this manner and give us armchair experts more to bicker about
With this internet thing and all the happy snappers about we will see more and more incidents like this that we would otherwise be blissfully unaware of. It gives me more appreciation of what pilots have to contend with every day.
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I too say NO to the inquisition! Especially based on a few pictures... and by people who have never experienced any type of gust, apart from a virtual gust. That's just crazy!!
FBW Airbus are not the most comfortable aircraft to fly in gusty conditions. The A321 is probably the most "honest" aircraft to land in the family when the wind is calm... And a bit of a "troublemaker in gusty conditions".
I was watching a few videos from Madiera the other day and how beautifully the pilots get the "birds" down under gusty and variable winds. Enjoy and stop the inquisition!
http://www.flightlevel350.com/aviati...eo.php?id=9143
FBW Airbus are not the most comfortable aircraft to fly in gusty conditions. The A321 is probably the most "honest" aircraft to land in the family when the wind is calm... And a bit of a "troublemaker in gusty conditions".
I was watching a few videos from Madiera the other day and how beautifully the pilots get the "birds" down under gusty and variable winds. Enjoy and stop the inquisition!
http://www.flightlevel350.com/aviati...eo.php?id=9143
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As for not knowing the basics, do you really think they would be flying if they didn't.."
Yes, is the answer.
It has been well established that introduction of automatics etc., in modern a/c, that basic flying skills have erroded to an alarming extent. To me those pictures have proved it.
I started (still learning) 39 years ago so I have a fair idea from observation if a pilot is handling a situation correctly not. Please don't try and baffle me with science.
All I can really add is this. Thank God for nosewheel a/c
It is pathetic that somebody that has no idea whatsoever of what he is writting about it is allowed to wtritte here. Please, somebody stop these wannabes for waisting our time and patience.
Yes, is the answer.
It has been well established that introduction of automatics etc., in modern a/c, that basic flying skills have erroded to an alarming extent. To me those pictures have proved it.
I started (still learning) 39 years ago so I have a fair idea from observation if a pilot is handling a situation correctly not. Please don't try and baffle me with science.
All I can really add is this. Thank God for nosewheel a/c
It is pathetic that somebody that has no idea whatsoever of what he is writting about it is allowed to wtritte here. Please, somebody stop these wannabes for waisting our time and patience.
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Really pi$$ed off
anyone referring to a G/A as an 'aborted landing' obviously does not have any clue what he is talking about
Best Regards
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Freq SLF,
I've just had a quick review of the posts and I don't think anybody has targetted you specifically with any vitriolic comments - I'd actually like to thank you for starting the thread!
There are a few "hot heads" on here who like to shout how good they are - but the majority of us (I think) are reasonably placid and post accordingly. I have to confess though I do get a little tired of some comments by people who evidentally have no idea what they are on about. As I said earlier, by all means ask sensible questions but please do not pass judgement if you are not in a position to do so (that's not aimed specifically at you SLF! )
You say we are "just doing our job" and "the rest of the world doesn't understand" -well both comments are true. Yes we are doing our job and the "average Joe" does not understand what it's like to land at somewhere like BIO in the conditions depicted in the pics with 150+ passengers behind you and a several million dollars worth of company equipment in your hands. As demonstrated by the Iberia landing in a split second it can all go very pear shaped with potentially VERY serious consequences. And that's the crux. There are not too many jobs in the world that, if you make a mistake, can have such devastating consequences in a heartbeat......... which is why we get a little vexed by some of the comments that get posted on here. I wouldn't dream of passing comment on a heart surgeons technique, so why would a PPL criticise a (close to limits) crosswind landing of 60 tonne swept wing airliner?
Once again, thanks for initiating the thread.
Regards
A4
I've just had a quick review of the posts and I don't think anybody has targetted you specifically with any vitriolic comments - I'd actually like to thank you for starting the thread!
There are a few "hot heads" on here who like to shout how good they are - but the majority of us (I think) are reasonably placid and post accordingly. I have to confess though I do get a little tired of some comments by people who evidentally have no idea what they are on about. As I said earlier, by all means ask sensible questions but please do not pass judgement if you are not in a position to do so (that's not aimed specifically at you SLF!
)You say we are "just doing our job" and "the rest of the world doesn't understand" -well both comments are true. Yes we are doing our job and the "average Joe" does not understand what it's like to land at somewhere like BIO in the conditions depicted in the pics with 150+ passengers behind you and a several million dollars worth of company equipment in your hands. As demonstrated by the Iberia landing in a split second it can all go very pear shaped with potentially VERY serious consequences. And that's the crux. There are not too many jobs in the world that, if you make a mistake, can have such devastating consequences in a heartbeat......... which is why we get a little vexed by some of the comments that get posted on here. I wouldn't dream of passing comment on a heart surgeons technique, so why would a PPL criticise a (close to limits) crosswind landing of 60 tonne swept wing airliner?
Once again, thanks for initiating the thread.
Regards
A4
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the "average Joe" does not understand what it's like to land at somewhere like BIO in the conditions depicted in the pics with 150+ passengers behind you and a several million dollars worth of company equipment in your hands. As demonstrated by the Iberia landing in a split second it can all go very pear shaped with potentially VERY serious consequences. And that's the crux. There are not too many jobs in the world that, if you make a mistake, can have such devastating consequences in a heartbeat.........
Thanks for your words.
As a SLF which is flying more than 200 sectors per year, I really do appreciate the pilots professionalism. I can say I had more than a few times which I am glad that the "drivers" very great professionals.
The crux you pointed is indeed what's makes the difference.
Regards
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There's no point in getting upset about the comments of others on this forum.
We have airline pilots, bush pilots, fighter pilots, private pilots, student pilots, Microsoft Flight Simulator pilots, pretend pilots, good pilots, bad pilots and some absolute numpties.
All you need to do is have a look at the 777 thread, the Turkish crash thread, the accident in Phuket, or any "aborted landing" thread that goes up on R&N.
Read through the comments. Some are informative, some are just laughable.
There will always be armchair experts - and I think that they outweigh the professionals on this forum at this stage.
But I think I'm right in saying that with advertising hits and views being detrimental to the running of Pprune, that we just have to grin and bear the idiocy.
We have airline pilots, bush pilots, fighter pilots, private pilots, student pilots, Microsoft Flight Simulator pilots, pretend pilots, good pilots, bad pilots and some absolute numpties.
All you need to do is have a look at the 777 thread, the Turkish crash thread, the accident in Phuket, or any "aborted landing" thread that goes up on R&N.
Read through the comments. Some are informative, some are just laughable.
There will always be armchair experts - and I think that they outweigh the professionals on this forum at this stage.
But I think I'm right in saying that with advertising hits and views being detrimental to the running of Pprune, that we just have to grin and bear the idiocy.
Turbulence and crosswind techniques in FBW Airbuses
As a retired ex-A320 driver (1988 - 2001), I've just come upon this interesting thread. Unfortunately, the link to the full set of pics is no longer applicable (?). So I'm stuck with the well-chosen three on Post#8.
Certainly looks like a late and sensible go-around, in what we can see (post#25) was roughly an on-limits crosswind (Posts#13 and #17); hence the lack of de-crab prior to touchdown, as has been said.
Having been there many times, I agree with the posts re. turbulence and wind shear at BIO, particularly the rotor effects on approach to R/W 12.
The wing-drop immediately after the brief touchdown may have been partly caused by the reaction as the tyres momentarily gripped the runway, yawing the aeroplane to the left. It may seem obvious, but this sudden roll would have required side-stick to correct, even on a FBW Airbus.
It is true that, with the AP disengaged, neutral side-stick on the A320 family normally gives zero roll-rate. Deflecting the stick to left or right commands a rate of roll (proportional to the deflection). In the event of a sudden side gust or yaw, however, the A/C rolls rather like any other. Once it has been rolled, say, 15 degrees to the left, it will stay there unless the pilot uses side-stick to pick the wing up (effectively by calling for a roll-rate to the right).
The difference from a traditional A/C is: once you have achieved the desired bank angle (zero, in this case), you remove pressure from the side-stick, whereupon the FBW will stop the A/C rolling (probably using a momentary bit of left aileron).
Although the pictures are of a go-around, there has been some discussion on crosswind landing technique, and how this relates to the FBW Airbuses. Can I offer my two-pennies' worth?
Re. Post#37, in my day Flap 3 (which was also the G/A setting) was also recommended for landings in gusty conditions on the A320. Trouble was, we rarely had a chance to try it out for 'manual' landings on a nice day, to get used to the higher pitch and lower thrust setting. [With the excellent GS-MINI system normally averting the need for increased thrust as the IAS tumbled, the thrust over the threshold could be quite low.] There was also some handling difference in the control laws (I can't remember what), maybe because Flap 3 is one of the approved take-off settings.
I notice ray cosmic's Boeing quote (Post#38), permitting landing without de-crab. Don't remember this on the A320, and it feels dreadful when done unintentionally. [Am I right in saying that the main gear on the B737 has some ability to castor? After they have turned on to a straight taxiway, they often seem to be crabbing along.]
For the landing, side-slip (crossed-controls) technique has been demonstrated to work well, but is not an approved method. The most obvious reason is that, in a limiting crosswind, pod-scrape on the A320 is possible, particularly at higher pitch angles.
The recommended technique in my day was to de-crab before touchdown, avoiding use of aileron unless and until the aeroplane rolled. In my experience, however, the A/C invariably rolled as a result of the de-crab. Accordingly, I always pre-empted this by using a moderate amount of into-wind roll-demand in opposition to the rudder. At completion of de-crab, rudder and stick were centralised.
This technique often led to the up-wind gear touching down first, followed immediately by the down-wind gear, whether or not the roll demand was removed. With both wheels firmly on the ground, it was my practice to reintroduce into-wind aileron until about 80 knots.
By the way, on crosswind take-offs it helped to anticipate the all-too-commonly-seen wing drop, during rotation, in a similar fashion.
All this seemed to work well, but the obligation to teach only SOPs prevented me from recommending it to my co-pilots...
So, what are you FBW-Airbus pilots doing in 2008?
Certainly looks like a late and sensible go-around, in what we can see (post#25) was roughly an on-limits crosswind (Posts#13 and #17); hence the lack of de-crab prior to touchdown, as has been said.
Having been there many times, I agree with the posts re. turbulence and wind shear at BIO, particularly the rotor effects on approach to R/W 12.
The wing-drop immediately after the brief touchdown may have been partly caused by the reaction as the tyres momentarily gripped the runway, yawing the aeroplane to the left. It may seem obvious, but this sudden roll would have required side-stick to correct, even on a FBW Airbus.
It is true that, with the AP disengaged, neutral side-stick on the A320 family normally gives zero roll-rate. Deflecting the stick to left or right commands a rate of roll (proportional to the deflection). In the event of a sudden side gust or yaw, however, the A/C rolls rather like any other. Once it has been rolled, say, 15 degrees to the left, it will stay there unless the pilot uses side-stick to pick the wing up (effectively by calling for a roll-rate to the right).
The difference from a traditional A/C is: once you have achieved the desired bank angle (zero, in this case), you remove pressure from the side-stick, whereupon the FBW will stop the A/C rolling (probably using a momentary bit of left aileron).
__________
Although the pictures are of a go-around, there has been some discussion on crosswind landing technique, and how this relates to the FBW Airbuses. Can I offer my two-pennies' worth?
Re. Post#37, in my day Flap 3 (which was also the G/A setting) was also recommended for landings in gusty conditions on the A320. Trouble was, we rarely had a chance to try it out for 'manual' landings on a nice day, to get used to the higher pitch and lower thrust setting. [With the excellent GS-MINI system normally averting the need for increased thrust as the IAS tumbled, the thrust over the threshold could be quite low.] There was also some handling difference in the control laws (I can't remember what), maybe because Flap 3 is one of the approved take-off settings.
I notice ray cosmic's Boeing quote (Post#38), permitting landing without de-crab. Don't remember this on the A320, and it feels dreadful when done unintentionally. [Am I right in saying that the main gear on the B737 has some ability to castor? After they have turned on to a straight taxiway, they often seem to be crabbing along.]
For the landing, side-slip (crossed-controls) technique has been demonstrated to work well, but is not an approved method. The most obvious reason is that, in a limiting crosswind, pod-scrape on the A320 is possible, particularly at higher pitch angles.
The recommended technique in my day was to de-crab before touchdown, avoiding use of aileron unless and until the aeroplane rolled. In my experience, however, the A/C invariably rolled as a result of the de-crab. Accordingly, I always pre-empted this by using a moderate amount of into-wind roll-demand in opposition to the rudder. At completion of de-crab, rudder and stick were centralised.
This technique often led to the up-wind gear touching down first, followed immediately by the down-wind gear, whether or not the roll demand was removed. With both wheels firmly on the ground, it was my practice to reintroduce into-wind aileron until about 80 knots.
By the way, on crosswind take-offs it helped to anticipate the all-too-commonly-seen wing drop, during rotation, in a similar fashion.
All this seemed to work well, but the obligation to teach only SOPs prevented me from recommending it to my co-pilots...
So, what are you FBW-Airbus pilots doing in 2008?
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I am sure they did their best and I am not even going to start with the subject. It is so easy to sit in your office and second guess things that happened earlier...
But, just as a point to the following statement:
"Bilbao is a CAT C airport, thus requiring additional training/familiarisation for the flightcrew."
Maybe it is CAT C, maybe it is not.
If it is not specially stated in a state AIP to require special training to meet certain criterias, CAT C airport determination is up to the operator.
Safe landings!
But, just as a point to the following statement:
"Bilbao is a CAT C airport, thus requiring additional training/familiarisation for the flightcrew."
Maybe it is CAT C, maybe it is not.
If it is not specially stated in a state AIP to require special training to meet certain criterias, CAT C airport determination is up to the operator.
Safe landings!
Chris Scott,
Thanks for your clear and elucidative post. If you google Iberia Bilbao or a similar combination you'll probably come across the full sequence of photos, but they'll just fill in the sequential gaps.
As cameras, still and video, come cheaper, uploading to the internet comes easier and interesting employment becomes scarcer, an increasing proportion of all landings and departues will be posted to the internet somewhere. It's probably a good thing for more more people to see that it ain't so easy every time. but, of course, only the cockups and near-disasters will be uploaded. To be expected.
FrequentSFL, take Farrell's and A4's comments seriously. By posting, you may have set off a shooting war between iconoclasts and other idiots, but nobody's shooting at you. That sort of to-and-fro, even when vested in ignorance, is good because it makes us all think.
Keep thinking!
Thanks for your clear and elucidative post. If you google Iberia Bilbao or a similar combination you'll probably come across the full sequence of photos, but they'll just fill in the sequential gaps.
As cameras, still and video, come cheaper, uploading to the internet comes easier and interesting employment becomes scarcer, an increasing proportion of all landings and departues will be posted to the internet somewhere. It's probably a good thing for more more people to see that it ain't so easy every time. but, of course, only the cockups and near-disasters will be uploaded. To be expected.
FrequentSFL, take Farrell's and A4's comments seriously. By posting, you may have set off a shooting war between iconoclasts and other idiots, but nobody's shooting at you. That sort of to-and-fro, even when vested in ignorance, is good because it makes us all think.
Keep thinking!
Talking of numpties there is a video on You Tube of a missed approach at Dublin in high winds.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YkPgalYvGB8
One of the comments made me laugh out loud, I quote:
"i would have brought her down first time no probs ive done it loads of times on my micro flight sim and only crashed twice out of six landings on same runway."
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YkPgalYvGB8
One of the comments made me laugh out loud, I quote:
"i would have brought her down first time no probs ive done it loads of times on my micro flight sim and only crashed twice out of six landings on same runway."