no jump seat rides???
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Certainly agree about son / daughter / relatives / good friends... being allowed in the flight deck, if only because they're safer locked in there with me than (God forbid) being discovered in the cabin by JohnnyT and his mates. But that said, I'd draw the line at my 'ex-wife'... as that really is one crazy bitch!... "Hell hath no fury...!"
For years it's been my assertion that the 'locked' flight deck door policy is nought but lip service to try and make passengers believe that 'security is in place'.
The locked door only works until that moment when the door is opened to bring us tea / coffee / food / newpapers / Cabin Tech Log / visit by Cabin Crew / etc... Wherein, imho, there's no way a little'ole Cabin Crew person is going to be able stop an assault by powerfully built trained killers.
And, somewhat ironically, if JohnnyT and his mates did manage to storm the flight deck you're gonna have the Devils own job to get the buggers out !
Furthermore, the flight deck door might well be capable of withstanding a certain level of ballistic assault... but the frame / bulkhead that houses it is not... so go figure?!
For years it's been my assertion that the 'locked' flight deck door policy is nought but lip service to try and make passengers believe that 'security is in place'.
The locked door only works until that moment when the door is opened to bring us tea / coffee / food / newpapers / Cabin Tech Log / visit by Cabin Crew / etc... Wherein, imho, there's no way a little'ole Cabin Crew person is going to be able stop an assault by powerfully built trained killers.
And, somewhat ironically, if JohnnyT and his mates did manage to storm the flight deck you're gonna have the Devils own job to get the buggers out !
Furthermore, the flight deck door might well be capable of withstanding a certain level of ballistic assault... but the frame / bulkhead that houses it is not... so go figure?!
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Locked door until tea/coffee/newspaper
Here is a post by someone called deplanedeplane. I do agree with Old King Cole, I sure you are a merry old sole. Lets include exgirlfriends, still to quick my my feet to get caught with the ring (handcuffs) put on my finger. But what an absolute loony tune, walking talking advertisement for Prozac.
I am sure planes can be adjusted to deplanes idea if airlines really wanted to give the pax the warm and fuzzys about security in place.
I am sure planes can be adjusted to deplanes idea if airlines really wanted to give the pax the warm and fuzzys about security in place.
To Ray Cosmic
Quote:
Yeah, Right!
Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!
That is a good point there. But does it need to be the fellow pilot & company employee that does the hammering????? How about any one of the operating crew in flight that do have access to the flightdeck at anytime throughout the entire flight.
To Quote Main_Dog
Quote:
There's not much you can do to protect against the odd crazy or grudge-bearer who has made it through all our selection processes and screens.
Now before you all start bashing me with angry replies, I feel my comments here are warrented. If you want the boys and I should include girls these days up front to be safe. How about locking them in just before the last door to the a/c closes and it remains closed/locked until security at the other end enters the code and lets them out.
I am sure the flight deck can be extended back a little bit to include a bathroom and contain a small chiller that has drinks and food.
You can not get more secure than that. Until that happens all the rules about jump seats and the flight deck are all just BULLSH#T.
My two cents (worth less than crap now because of the falling USD)
DeplaneDeplane.
Quote:
Yeah, Right!
Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!
That is a good point there. But does it need to be the fellow pilot & company employee that does the hammering????? How about any one of the operating crew in flight that do have access to the flightdeck at anytime throughout the entire flight.
To Quote Main_Dog
Quote:
There's not much you can do to protect against the odd crazy or grudge-bearer who has made it through all our selection processes and screens.
Now before you all start bashing me with angry replies, I feel my comments here are warrented. If you want the boys and I should include girls these days up front to be safe. How about locking them in just before the last door to the a/c closes and it remains closed/locked until security at the other end enters the code and lets them out.
I am sure the flight deck can be extended back a little bit to include a bathroom and contain a small chiller that has drinks and food.
You can not get more secure than that. Until that happens all the rules about jump seats and the flight deck are all just BULLSH#T.
My two cents (worth less than crap now because of the falling USD)
DeplaneDeplane.
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Undersiege ,do you write George W Bush's speeches or do you just hold a dictionary upside down and let the words fall out in any random order? There is definately a job for you at the Grauniad.
Controversial, moi?
Own son?,
Own daughter?,
Own dad?,
Own mom? (a 76 year old mom causing a threat?)
Own wife? (maybe)
The rule could exclude at least kin of operating crew on a particular flight.
As a privilage.(sic)
Own daughter?,
Own dad?,
Own mom? (a 76 year old mom causing a threat?)
Own wife? (maybe)
The rule could exclude at least kin of operating crew on a particular flight.
As a privilage.(sic)
Given that the last terrorist outrage in the UK was carried out by otherwise fine upstanding members of the community it does, in my mind, throw a different light on the subject, much as I disllike the current rules.
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And about this locked door policy. I completely agree with Wedge. It should be reviewed. I can't stand the noice of cabin crew calling me when they have something to tell me.
No Worries mate, next time there is a hijacker we wont cabin crew to call you, or is that something you want to know about.
Keep that door shut, keep all distractions out. You are required to be at the controls unless you want the bathroom or a quick strecth of the legs. You really think a jumpseater is going to stay there the whole flight!!!! They will be in and out of the flight deck so often because they are bored and don't have to stay there. This is where the security of the flight deck fails.
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eep that door shut, keep all distractions out. You are required to be at the controls
What do you mean keep all the distractions out, you are required to be at the controls? When cabin crew enter the flight deck you are not at the controls? You are at the controls and is not a distraction when the buzzer goes on and you have to fiddle with the switces to cancel it and then fiddle again with the switches to answer the call from the cabin crew just to be asked what you want to drink. And that is on a DVR5F SID out of LHR??????????????
Last edited by alexantrea; 15th Dec 2007 at 12:20.
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You really think a jumpseater is going to stay there the whole flight!!!!
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blimey
And for longhaul, a simple mod to provide a pre-door barrier wouldn't be too difficult.
KEEP THE DOOR SHUT AND EVERYONE BUT CREW OUT.
: ugh:
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Is anyone able to point me in the direction of any specific rules (FAA in US or otherwise) which dictate who is allowed on the Flight Crew.
One of our team members mentioned that there was a law in the US about passengers not being allowed in the jump seat at any time. I was wondering is this correct, and is it applicable to US carriers only.
Cheers
One of our team members mentioned that there was a law in the US about passengers not being allowed in the jump seat at any time. I was wondering is this correct, and is it applicable to US carriers only.
Cheers
The US reg is:
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS
Subpart T—Flight Operations
Browse Previous | Browse Next
§ 121.547 Admission to flight deck.
(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is—
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except—
(1) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;
(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;
(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;
(5) An employee of the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority; and
(6) A technical representative of the manufacturer of the aircraft or its components whose duties are directly related to the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by the Administrator and by a responsible supervisor of the operations department of the part 119 certificate holder, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority.
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS
Subpart T—Flight Operations
Browse Previous | Browse Next
§ 121.547 Admission to flight deck.
(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is—
(1) A crewmember;
(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;
(3) Any person who—
(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and
(ii) Is an employee of—
(A) The United States, or
(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or
(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.
(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except—
(1) An FAA air carrier inspector, a DOD commercial air carrier evaluator, or authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;
(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;
(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;
(5) An employee of the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority; and
(6) A technical representative of the manufacturer of the aircraft or its components whose duties are directly related to the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by the Administrator and by a responsible supervisor of the operations department of the part 119 certificate holder, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority.
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As evidenced on this thread, there are still major companies that allow the Captain of the aircraft to decide who sits on the cockpit jumpseats.
And you know why? Because management figures that if they can trust the guy/gal with such an expensive piece of equipment and the lives of a couple of hundred people day in day out, they can trust him/her to make a valid judgement about who can visit the cockpit.
Crazy concept what?
FLY SMART & DON'T TAKE ANY RISKS?
It doesn't say in your profile, but if you have anything to do with civil aviation at all, you should know that your statement is a load of crock. Risks are taken on each and every flight. That door gets opened on each and every flight.
Pilots get fed & watered, FAs visit for a chat and a cuppa.
That's still the reality of civil aviation.
Only El Al put their money where their mouth is. So unless that's your place of work, you are fooling nobody but yourself with those capital letters.
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Juud
Because management figures that if they can trust the guy/gal with such an expensive piece of equipment and the lives of a couple of hundred people day in day out, they can trust him/her to make a valid judgement about who can visit the cockpit.
Tell that to the Fedex crew that got hammered, literally, by the jumpseater, who was also a fellow pilot and company employee. They survived, but if my memory is correct, none of that 3 man crew regained their medicals due to the injuries they received!
It doesn't say in your profile, but if you have anything to do with civil aviation at all
But there are still more precautions we can take to make it safer.
Step 1. And I will not budge on this. No jumpseats in flight deck, that includes company crew and crew of another airline.
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undersiege - The FedEx guys were whacked by a bloke that was obviously an A1 nutter (no pun intended)... and therein, when I'm part of the operating crew, who's to say that I mightn't be depressed / suicidal / have my family being held hostage / etc?... and thence decide / coerced to do the same thing, i.e. hit the FO on the head with the axe and dive the plane into, say, the House of Parliament, Buckingham Palace, etc?
And the same example could also be equally be applied to the Cabin Crew.. remembering that they're often in / out of the flight deck.
Therein it could well be argued that having somebody on the jump seat might prohibit a murderous intent by a crew member... or are you going to suggest that crew are always free from such vices?
And in case you haven't noticed the flight deck door is not kept shut... it's opened on a regular basis... wherein, when the door is opened, what most airlines do is put a food / drinks service trolley 'in the way' in an attempt to make it harder for JohnnyT and his mates to get past... yeah right ?!
And the same example could also be equally be applied to the Cabin Crew.. remembering that they're often in / out of the flight deck.
Therein it could well be argued that having somebody on the jump seat might prohibit a murderous intent by a crew member... or are you going to suggest that crew are always free from such vices?
And in case you haven't noticed the flight deck door is not kept shut... it's opened on a regular basis... wherein, when the door is opened, what most airlines do is put a food / drinks service trolley 'in the way' in an attempt to make it harder for JohnnyT and his mates to get past... yeah right ?!
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To UNDERSIEGE
Lets keep that
door build with bricks and concrete to finish with it.
Lets put a a toilet and a vending machine with chicolates and coffee in the flight deck, forget all about CRM, for which our companies pay a lot of money ( not that I believe to it much ), and "see you after landing boys and girls"
And by the way.... I am all the time in control of the aeroplane, the crew and the flight, even when a cabin staff member comes into the flight deck or even a fellow pilot who happens to travel with us on the day!
Lets keep that
door build with bricks and concrete to finish with it.Lets put a a toilet and a vending machine with chicolates and coffee in the flight deck, forget all about CRM, for which our companies pay a lot of money ( not that I believe to it much ), and "see you after landing boys and girls"
And by the way.... I am all the time in control of the aeroplane, the crew and the flight, even when a cabin staff member comes into the flight deck or even a fellow pilot who happens to travel with us on the day!
Last edited by alexantrea; 16th Dec 2007 at 12:24.
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''Lets keep that door build with bricks and concrete to finish with it.
Lets put a a toilet and a vending machine with chicolates and coffee in the flight deck, forget all about CRM,''
...and "see you after landing boys and girls"
''And in case you haven't noticed the flight deck door is not kept shut... it's opened on a regular basis...''
THIS CLOSED DOOR POLICY IS LIKE UNDRESSING IN PUBLIC WHILE SHIELDED BY A CLEAR GLASS PARTITION
door build with bricks and concrete to finish with it.Lets put a a toilet and a vending machine with chicolates and coffee in the flight deck, forget all about CRM,''
...and "see you after landing boys and girls"
''And in case you haven't noticed the flight deck door is not kept shut... it's opened on a regular basis...''
THIS CLOSED DOOR POLICY IS LIKE UNDRESSING IN PUBLIC WHILE SHIELDED BY A CLEAR GLASS PARTITION
