12 Hour Layovers
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12 Hour Layovers
I'm looking to get an idea of how safe guys think it is to do day or indeed night flight of say 7 to 10 hours followed by a 12 hour layover then fly back, then work again the next day.
Is it common practice outside of the middle east?
Having done a few, Its hard to be focused on the return leg, and therefore for me means its dangerous, thought??
Is it common practice outside of the middle east?
Having done a few, Its hard to be focused on the return leg, and therefore for me means its dangerous, thought??
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I sympatise and agree, EYZ.
However, I could no doubt list dozens of arguably dangerous flight time limitations.
Problem is, since when have the aviation authorities based flight time limitations upon safety projections, realism or proven facts?
Philosophy seems to be, if the pilots aren't crashing because they're too tired, why should the authorities feel inclined to spoil a cushy 9-to-5, Monday to Friday office life, or disturb the slumber period leading up to a fat pension, having to work out realistic limitations? And lets face it, any such attempts have all too often been modified out of all recognition due to pressure from the airlines.
Apart from which, when accidents do occur, good old "pilot error" is always useful for covering up the real facts.
Still, it's good to talk. Waste of effort, but good.
However, I could no doubt list dozens of arguably dangerous flight time limitations.
Problem is, since when have the aviation authorities based flight time limitations upon safety projections, realism or proven facts?
Philosophy seems to be, if the pilots aren't crashing because they're too tired, why should the authorities feel inclined to spoil a cushy 9-to-5, Monday to Friday office life, or disturb the slumber period leading up to a fat pension, having to work out realistic limitations? And lets face it, any such attempts have all too often been modified out of all recognition due to pressure from the airlines.
Apart from which, when accidents do occur, good old "pilot error" is always useful for covering up the real facts.
Still, it's good to talk. Waste of effort, but good.
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For about 3 years I flew a schedule that consisted of little other than LAX-ICN (12+ hours), 12 hours layover, ICN-LAX (11+ hours). That is a VERY taxing schedule, and you don't do more than 2 in a row without extended (more than the required 48 hours) time off.
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I prefer the 12 hour rest to a 24 hour rest, we do both dpending on the trip sequence.. It is hard to get in a correct sleep pattern with 24 off and then another long day ahead.
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EYZ
In terms of when you get back home a 12 hr rest period can be better to recover from? I guess your talking East/West tranistions as well.
3 Greens - yes it is known that 18-30hrs rest periods are the worse, until social agreements get in the way. i.e. we want to work back to back Long haul so we can have more days off rather min days off. Funny how it all goes out the window when you mention social!
In terms of when you get back home a 12 hr rest period can be better to recover from? I guess your talking East/West tranistions as well.
3 Greens - yes it is known that 18-30hrs rest periods are the worse, until social agreements get in the way. i.e. we want to work back to back Long haul so we can have more days off rather min days off. Funny how it all goes out the window when you mention social!
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I did this for a few years back in the 90s... I'd say it very much depends on the individual... I remember some of my FOs were fine with it..they could sleep happily through the day to maybe late afternoon.. I couldn't and would be lucky to get 3 hrs sleep... in fact when away from base we had 11 hr layovers which after paperwork, transport to the hotel...checking in etc etc... we'd get maybe 7 hrs to relax before starting over again on another 4 or 5 ( 6 ) sector night... by the end of the week I'd be a stumbling zombie.. arrriving back into London at 05:00 chewing on my knuckles to stay awake either flying or monitoring a turbulent ILS to mins... no way was that a safe operation... which is why I quit... I just wasn't cut out for that.
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Ok this is a regular one for us - tiring enough taking care of the cabin:
UK to Carribean Island number one (Dep 1100), then onwards to Caribbean Island number two, then Light Aircraft (positioning/deadheading) to Caribbean Island number three, plus transport to hotel, plus post flight paperwork/de-briefing. Total time so far around 14-15hrs on duty.
This followed by 18hrs off (including 4-5hr westbound) time change before operating an 11hr overnight duty Caribbean back to UK.
On one very rare occassion over the years I have done UK-USA (Day) then 13hrs off and then USA-UK (night), that as far as I can remember was far easier, as are the European layovers of 12-18hrs operating short haul.
So 12hrs off during the day must definately be a struggle and pushing the boundaries of safety and endurance.
UK to Carribean Island number one (Dep 1100), then onwards to Caribbean Island number two, then Light Aircraft (positioning/deadheading) to Caribbean Island number three, plus transport to hotel, plus post flight paperwork/de-briefing. Total time so far around 14-15hrs on duty.
This followed by 18hrs off (including 4-5hr westbound) time change before operating an 11hr overnight duty Caribbean back to UK.
On one very rare occassion over the years I have done UK-USA (Day) then 13hrs off and then USA-UK (night), that as far as I can remember was far easier, as are the European layovers of 12-18hrs operating short haul.
So 12hrs off during the day must definately be a struggle and pushing the boundaries of safety and endurance.
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Referring back to the original post, a 7-10 hour day duty with a 12 hour rest period and a similar duty back sounds perfectly reasonable to me but it becomes a different consideration if its done at night. Way back in time we used to do a "W" pattern across the Atlantic with only min rest and that seemed to work OK for the four sectors involved; duty days that were not particularly long and a rest period short enough to discourage too much social activity. I usually managed to wake up, get up and go flying, which is pretty much ideal.
The three sector (including Azores fuel stop) Caribbean night flight followed by min day rest with cleaners who could not understand "do not disturb" followed by a three sector night return was very different though. Both scenarios legal.
I can't help feeling that certain segments, or maybe just individuals, get a bit carried away with the rest issue and tend to ignore the fact that we actually have a job to do as well. Although it would make an interesting experiment if beancounters and their associates were made to work under similar conditions for a while and had their performance monitored. There might be bit more understanding of the issues, particularly if you could throw in people lying to you and being generally incompetent right at the beginning of the work period in order to simulate the pre-departure phase.
The three sector (including Azores fuel stop) Caribbean night flight followed by min day rest with cleaners who could not understand "do not disturb" followed by a three sector night return was very different though. Both scenarios legal.
I can't help feeling that certain segments, or maybe just individuals, get a bit carried away with the rest issue and tend to ignore the fact that we actually have a job to do as well. Although it would make an interesting experiment if beancounters and their associates were made to work under similar conditions for a while and had their performance monitored. There might be bit more understanding of the issues, particularly if you could throw in people lying to you and being generally incompetent right at the beginning of the work period in order to simulate the pre-departure phase.
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In the LowCost industry we do 12-14 hour layovers all the time, it's more or less the company motto. 
I know the comparison between LoCo and long haul is not completely correct, however there are a lot of factors that will sort of level the playing field a bit;
*) Although long haul means jet lag, with only 12 hours on the ground at destination it means that your body clock can (more or less) stay on the time of departure.
*) Short haul (LoCo) generally means 4 stressful sectors/day with short turn around times, 4 take offs/landings during which we fly 7-8 hours, roughly the same block hours as in long haul, whereby long haul means flying just one relatively relaxing sector.
*) Nightstops (long haul) means getting dropped off and picked up from hotels, a lot less stress than having to negotiate traffic yourself every day, however the advantage is that with short haul you generally sleep in your own bed.
Like I said before, it's a bit like comparing apples with oranges, however there are a lot of factors that cancel each other out.
It's sad to see that the low cost mentality is now moving into the long haul market. Automation and training will prevent most accidents so no regulator will bother to introduce legislation, however the price we all pay in terms of health and fatigue is enormous.
I know the comparison between LoCo and long haul is not completely correct, however there are a lot of factors that will sort of level the playing field a bit;
*) Although long haul means jet lag, with only 12 hours on the ground at destination it means that your body clock can (more or less) stay on the time of departure.
*) Short haul (LoCo) generally means 4 stressful sectors/day with short turn around times, 4 take offs/landings during which we fly 7-8 hours, roughly the same block hours as in long haul, whereby long haul means flying just one relatively relaxing sector.
*) Nightstops (long haul) means getting dropped off and picked up from hotels, a lot less stress than having to negotiate traffic yourself every day, however the advantage is that with short haul you generally sleep in your own bed.
Like I said before, it's a bit like comparing apples with oranges, however there are a lot of factors that cancel each other out.
It's sad to see that the low cost mentality is now moving into the long haul market. Automation and training will prevent most accidents so no regulator will bother to introduce legislation, however the price we all pay in terms of health and fatigue is enormous.
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Lond duty times plus jet lag
Every post here raises a valid issue and the common theme appears to be that as long as the duty is legal it is fine .
However accepted research shows that after 10 hours at work the error rate increases and this can be equated to the error rate that occurs after taking Alcohol.
Alcohol is illegal but longer duty times are not!
As long as personnel accept these schedules management are quite happy.
However accepted research shows that after 10 hours at work the error rate increases and this can be equated to the error rate that occurs after taking Alcohol.
Alcohol is illegal but longer duty times are not!
As long as personnel accept these schedules management are quite happy.
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Doug,
In lo-co we do a full days work followed by a night off followed by another days work etc... so we're tired after an honest day's work. In long haul we'd do a 7 hour night flight into a different time zone, have 12 hours 'rest' followed by another 7 hour flight back home (also at night). Result - no sleep for three days! And after a day at home the company would happily launch us into a 14 hour night flight to europe (don't mention the 9 day around-the-world zombie specials or the red-eye JFK-europe!). So for me, it's the comfortable high stress multi-sector lo-co all in the same time zone, anytime!!!
easy
You can't compare the two until you've done both
In lo-co we do a full days work followed by a night off followed by another days work etc... so we're tired after an honest day's work. In long haul we'd do a 7 hour night flight into a different time zone, have 12 hours 'rest' followed by another 7 hour flight back home (also at night). Result - no sleep for three days! And after a day at home the company would happily launch us into a 14 hour night flight to europe (don't mention the 9 day around-the-world zombie specials or the red-eye JFK-europe!). So for me, it's the comfortable high stress multi-sector lo-co all in the same time zone, anytime!!!
easy
You can't compare the two until you've done both
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Morning everybody
Trying to recover from a week( i think
) of back to back flights with min rest in between..and being old and naturally lazy..i second ACBUS1's post word by word
Trying to recover from a week( i think
) of back to back flights with min rest in between..and being old and naturally lazy..i second ACBUS1's post word by word
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Good info from all thanks to explain how mine works here is a real example.
Abu dhabi-LHR night flight 10 hour duty,
24 hours off
LHR-AUH day flight arriving midnight 10 hour duty,
12 hours off
AUH- Paris (CDG) night flight 9 hour duty
12 hours off
CDG-AUH night flight 9 hour duty
12 hours off
AUH- Khartoum (KRT)- AUH night flight 10 hour duty
by the time you finish this, I would challenge anyone to say thaey are fit for an emergency or a CAT III approach!!
Abu dhabi-LHR night flight 10 hour duty,
24 hours off
LHR-AUH day flight arriving midnight 10 hour duty,
12 hours off
AUH- Paris (CDG) night flight 9 hour duty
12 hours off
CDG-AUH night flight 9 hour duty
12 hours off
AUH- Khartoum (KRT)- AUH night flight 10 hour duty
by the time you finish this, I would challenge anyone to say thaey are fit for an emergency or a CAT III approach!!
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Hey EYZ,
To chip my bit in, i would rather do 10-12 hours in hotels then fly home, purely because as someone else said, i find it easier to recover from. I fly for an airline in asia and we always spend between 18 and 30 hours in hotels over large time zone changes and it is pretty tiring. As for an emergency, well you'll probably find that the mind focuses pretty quickly if one arises, and as for the old cat3, well lets face it, the hardest bit about that is the taxiing.
To chip my bit in, i would rather do 10-12 hours in hotels then fly home, purely because as someone else said, i find it easier to recover from. I fly for an airline in asia and we always spend between 18 and 30 hours in hotels over large time zone changes and it is pretty tiring. As for an emergency, well you'll probably find that the mind focuses pretty quickly if one arises, and as for the old cat3, well lets face it, the hardest bit about that is the taxiing.
Last edited by dustyprops; 12th Dec 2007 at 11:19.
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What's the rules??
Does the EY OMA not state you must have 10 hours rest
in a hotel. We should as pilots insist on this, we can do as they wish or we can stand up for safe practices.
in a hotel. We should as pilots insist on this, we can do as they wish or we can stand up for safe practices.
Is this rule only for EY or is it ment to be accross the board for all airlines???
Only reason I ask is because sometimes when I get min rest flight (12hrs) the distance from the airport to the hotel is 1hrs sometimes more with traffic. By the time you start to relax in the hotel room, get something to eat, get SOME sleep during daylight hours, call time 1 hour before pick up and the 1 hour or more travel time. Sometimes I think this CAN NOT be leagal.
This can not be safe for an airline to have a aircraft full or tired cabin crew and equally tired.Is there someone out there that can shed some light on this matter and tell me name of the governing body that oversee's this.
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rest
I aggree with the person who notes that its a waste of time talking but its good to talk.
Problem is that us pilots talk too much but do too little when it comes to our rest or FDP, that are only based on the cost cuting policies of the airlines and nothing else.
And note this: Our company rosters us for up to the limit FDP, starting at 5min to the hour, whereas the same duty would have been illegal if started on the hour!!!!!
Problem is that us pilots talk too much but do too little when it comes to our rest or FDP, that are only based on the cost cuting policies of the airlines and nothing else.
And note this: Our company rosters us for up to the limit FDP, starting at 5min to the hour, whereas the same duty would have been illegal if started on the hour!!!!!
Last edited by alexantrea; 16th Dec 2007 at 12:17.
"Night flight alertness and awakeness levels were found to compare to a BAC (Blood Alcohol Content) of 0,5‰."
