Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Brand new Etihad A340-600 damaged in Toulouse; several wounded

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Brand new Etihad A340-600 damaged in Toulouse; several wounded

Old 31st Dec 2007, 15:10
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Northern Europe
Age: 45
Posts: 152
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
...and with that image and text in mind, why use chocks at all....? If what the image says is true, and the aircraft moves forward to touch the chocks, friction will be lost and the aircraft will accellerate even further...?

Just asking...
The Bartender is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2007, 15:21
  #342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 59
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Chocks

I suppose it comes down to what chocks are supposed to do, stop an aircraft if the parking brake has failed or is not fully operative.
Probably not designed to halt an aircraft with N engines pushing amount X newtons of thrust.
go-si is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2007, 15:59
  #343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If what the image says is true, and the aircraft moves forward to touch the chocks, friction will be lost
Nowhere near as much - because the tyre is already distorted against the brakes before it reaches the chock - and so will not try to ride up the chock.
forget is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2007, 18:09
  #344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: near EDDF
Posts: 775
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@ forget
I guess you are working on B737.
Originally Posted by AMM B737
Prevent Airplane Movement During Engine Operation At High Power
...
- You must set the parking brake.
...
- Make sure the ANTISKID switch, on the center instrument panel P2, is in the OFF position.
...
- Put the wheel chocks 6 to 12 inches (15 to 30 cm) in front and aft of the nose gear tires and all the main gear tires.
...
A320 Fam. AMM do not mention any space between wheel and chocks:
Originally Posted by AMM A320
...
If high power is necessary (above 1.20 EPR) aircraft must be immobilized by wheel chocks and brake pedals. Do the following procedure:
...
- On the LANDING GEAR CTL & IND PNL 402VU select "A/SKID NOSE WHEEL" switch in ON position.
- Fully depress brake pedals and hold.
- Release parking brake handle
...
Normally the parking brake is able to hold the A/C at its position with 1 engine at high power setting. (even by the A320 Fam.)
I prefer the space between wheel and chocks not in conjunction with friction. As i mention above the parking brake is all i need and when she fails during high power you feel a bump when the wheels touch the chocks. It is like a wake up call to retard the throttle(s).
IFixPlanes is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2008, 01:00
  #345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here, there, and everywhere
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 8 Posts
It is wise not to do a high power run toward solid objects, however some planes have a limitation that if the wind is over a certain speed, the aircraft is to be into or within a certain number of degrees of the wind direction. Running all four at the same time, especially if at a light weight is something to avoid if possible. Perhaps symmetrical engines only. Was there a specific reason to do all four at once? One person should be looking outside at all times to see if there is any forward movement. And of course, consideration of ground conditions such as slippery surfaces among other things.
punkalouver is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2008, 18:15
  #346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bernd
From what information given in the snippet you posted did you get the position of the aircraft as seen in your picture? Pointing the aircraft at a structure is not the same as putting it directly in front of it. It only means that if it moves directly forward (although for an unspecified distance) it will hit that structure.
It all comes from this and this !

Position in precedent post is the one at the initial nose impact

and below is the position 55 meters before impact :



Considering the pad setting, initial engine test position, from where all started, was pretty close, I would say MAX an additional 20 meters back in direct line or not.

Official information published on November 20th by Airbus and BEA (and lately forwarded by unidentified senior insider from Toulouse) does NOT quite tell the same story than those pictures which surfaced 10 days later !?

As I said earlier everything is known already, why so many obvious discrepancies ?

What else is purposely retained that could prevent to exclusively blame the guys seated in front ?
CONF iture is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2008, 20:16
  #347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What else is purposely retained that could prevent to exclusively blame the guys seated in front ?
I'm not interested in "BLAME".

But as an engineer, I still simply cannot get my mind around running up all four engines against the parking brakes to the earlier quoted thrust, and then NOT slamming all throttles shut the very instant the aircraft started to move, rather than ELEVEN seconds later.

OK, I'm a dinosaur, because I still know Concorde at T/O power plus reheat could NOT be held against the brakes. But I would have hoped some of our experience would have filtered down the ages.....
ChristiaanJ is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2008, 02:03
  #348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, I also cannot understand the lack of SA

+1

glad rag
glad rag is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2008, 16:25
  #349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: W of 30W
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In one of the late BA038 thread
Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
As for those critical of the AAIB it is amazing arrogance for some of you to think you know better about how they should be handling it
Such a statement would be harder to pronounce regarding the French BEA
CONF iture is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2008, 19:13
  #350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: southwest
Age: 78
Posts: 287
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Christiaan

Re: "I would have hoped some of our experience would have filtered down the ages....."

No chance, Sir, there's no mechanism for that, and no-one wants to learn from the old farts.
Dysag is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 01:15
  #351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Herts, UK
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I prefer the space between wheel and chocks not in conjunction with friction. As i mention above the parking brake is all i need and when she fails during high power you feel a bump when the wheels touch the chocks. It is like a wake up call to retard the throttle(s).
I think this is the correct reasoning for chock positioning fwd of the wheels.

I note the procedure don't specify a 'lookout' dedciated to warning of unexpected movement at all times...

4 engines at once saves time (but that's cynical).. once again, no lives lost thankfully

As for old farts being listened to... they should always be an integral part of operating procedures! - you don't get old by being particularly stupid
HarryMann is offline  
Old 27th Jan 2008, 17:23
  #352 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 67
Posts: 10,169
Received 62 Likes on 50 Posts
Dysag
No chance, Sir, there's no mechanism for that, and no-one wants to learn from the old farts.
How beautifully put.

I have been in telecommunications for 25+ years and my friends and I find that our experience is often considered irrelevant as it is from so long ago. As in IT, as in aircraft, the fundamentals do not change. And one of those fundamentals is that we do not listen to men that are old enough to be our fathers.

When I was 20 something, I'm sure that I knew it all.
PAXboy is offline  
Old 28th Jan 2008, 12:24
  #353 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A senior German chap in Toulouse once said to me "I wish I was 17 again! I knew absolutely everything then - but now I feel I know so little"

I know what he means!
saman is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2008, 13:00
  #354 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Milton Keynes-on-sea
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
christiaanJ

As an older fart and engineer used to running four far less powerful engines than either the Olympus or the CFM56 on ground runs, to retract the throttles from full power was an instinctive action if the aircraft moved, wall or no wall in front of the aircraft!

As to experience and youth, I suppose it can depend on who taught you in the first place. As an RAF Apprentice, there were hords of old boys in brown dust coats that droned on and on for hours followed, once on a squadron, or in this case, a manufacurers working party, more old farts in overalls. It certainly stopped me being cocky until I should have known better!

Today, the youth are not interested in listening whether you in a suit or overalls.
falcon12 is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2008, 13:37
  #355 (permalink)  
Paxing All Over The World
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hertfordshire, UK.
Age: 67
Posts: 10,169
Received 62 Likes on 50 Posts
Continuing thread drift but not altogether away from the seat of the topic ...

Whilst working in the financial district of London in the late 1980s, I noticed the process of pensioning off the 'old farts' and promoting those in their 20s. It was done to save money and the idea that the new boys would have new ideas. What actually happened was that the companies lost the people who remembered what happened the last time it all went wrong.

Those times when the old geezer (RAF or commerce or politics) would scratch his head and say something like, "The last time that happened, we found that the <ITEM> had failed and there is no warning light on it because it is supposed not to fail and just be replaced every 10,000 hours." Thus the problem was fixed and the new boy learnt a lesson.

In the mid 1990s, I heard a most interesting discussion about this from the head of Personnel (probably called Human Resources ) of a major UK finance group say on BBC R4, "We realised that, in letting go so many senior people, we had lost our 'corporate memory' of what happened before and we were having to learn lessons all over again."

QED.
PAXboy is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2008, 13:48
  #356 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
If you get rid of the 'old farts' the re-invention of the wheel becomes an original idea!
goudie is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2008, 14:15
  #357 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,850
Received 328 Likes on 115 Posts
Those 'old farts' in brown overalls were worth their weight in gold!

As a pilot under training, one day when I turned on the battery master in my Jet Provost, the AC inverter didn't respond. Cycling the battery didn't help and the young lad outside hadn't a clue..... So he sensibly went and fetched help.

Out came an elderly chap in a brown coat. He opened up the nose, reached inside and gave something an almighty clout with his fist. I felt the aircraft actually move.

"Try it now!"... Click, whiiiiizzz - and the inverter started up as normal. After I got back from an hour scaring myself over the Bardney sugar beet factory, I spoke to the line chief. It seems the old boy had remembered that trick - he said he hadn't seen it for a few years though; in fact it must have been about 12 years since he'd last seen that particular snag when some even older fart in a brown coat had taught him the trick.

Old age and treachery will always outfox youthful enthusiasm!
BEagle is online now  
Old 17th Feb 2008, 18:38
  #358 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 951
Received 18 Likes on 12 Posts
ChristiaanJ
But I would have hoped some of our experience would have filtered down the ages.....
You and me both. But as others have pointed out, there are people of fewer years who know it all, so who needs experience?

What Airbus have managed to suppress successfully so far is that a note was found sellotaped to the remains of the nose of that aircraft. It was short and simple. It said;


Gotcha.

I'm still around.

Yours till hell freezes,

Murphy.

Last edited by old,not bold; 17th Feb 2008 at 18:42. Reason: pedantry - few vs less
old,not bold is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2008, 19:50
  #359 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by old, not bold
What Airbus have managed to suppress successfully so far is that a note was found sellotaped to the remains of the nose of that aircraft. It was short and simple. It said:
Gotcha.
I'm still around.
Yours till hell freezes,
Murphy.
Thanks....
I've met Murphy a few times....
ChristiaanJ is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2008, 13:51
  #360 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Blighty (Nth. Downs)
Age: 77
Posts: 2,107
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Lessons (not always) handed down

Quote from ChristiaanJ:
But I would have hoped some of our experience would have filtered down the ages.....

Something about those ignoring the lessons of history being condemned to watch it repeating itself?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=313707&page=4

27 years ago, an empty rear-engined passenger jet was doing high-speed taxiing trials, following a nosewheel-steering malfunction. The aircraft had not been prepared (or configured) for flight, but there was (one) pilot on the tiller. You can guess the rest...

We must be just about due for the next one?
Chris Scott is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.