Virgin Co-Pilot arrested, allegedly over alcohol limit. No case to answer.
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Anyone who has a lower alchohol content than the aviation limit would not 'smell' of alchohol or exhibit any 'drunken' tendancies, which means that a malicious accusation sounds fairly likely.
I am not saying this is what happened as I know nothing about any of this, however, this is a way someone could have appeared mildly drunk and smelt of alcohol, yet been completely OK.
Thank goodness the accused was cleared, it must be a great burden off them, however IMHO you can't go looking for revenge against someone who must be assumed to have had the safety of passengers in mind.
Now if the person who made the accusation was genuinely acting maliciously then it is a different matter, but there is no evidence of this.
How can people be happy to presume the accuser acted with malice but berate the press for similar reporting on the pilot? Pot, kettle, black?
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I should like to propose a positive possibility.
This FO was found to be innocent of the accusation and at such a level that the words "smelt of alcohol" could not be true.
If the cabin crew now accused in Manchester also turn out to be innocent of the accusation - then the Police are going to have to think very carefully. Two cases close to each other if they both prove to be innocent will force the carriers to look askance at any casual comment.
Is that hoping against hope? Well, BALPA ought to be able to make that point for you and I don't imagine that BA and VS are very happy about the cost to them of these events. If people are playing games - two events close to each other, could be what is needed to change the game.
This FO was found to be innocent of the accusation and at such a level that the words "smelt of alcohol" could not be true.
If the cabin crew now accused in Manchester also turn out to be innocent of the accusation - then the Police are going to have to think very carefully. Two cases close to each other if they both prove to be innocent will force the carriers to look askance at any casual comment.
Is that hoping against hope? Well, BALPA ought to be able to make that point for you and I don't imagine that BA and VS are very happy about the cost to them of these events. If people are playing games - two events close to each other, could be what is needed to change the game.
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4potflyer sums it up nicely.
It's been well discussed...even here in PPRuNe...that there are various circumstances that can produce an apparent smell of alcohol on the breath when no drinking is involved. Mouthwash, as frequently mentioned, is one of them but there's also the classic case of a particular diet that gave an unfortunate pilot bad, apparently alcoholic, breath.
It's just as wrong to assume the original accusation was malicious as it is to assume the innocent pilot was guilty before seeing the results of the blood test. Unless the full facts are known, this sort of speculation is just as damaging as that rubbish on the AOL board.
Bobbsy
It's been well discussed...even here in PPRuNe...that there are various circumstances that can produce an apparent smell of alcohol on the breath when no drinking is involved. Mouthwash, as frequently mentioned, is one of them but there's also the classic case of a particular diet that gave an unfortunate pilot bad, apparently alcoholic, breath.
It's just as wrong to assume the original accusation was malicious as it is to assume the innocent pilot was guilty before seeing the results of the blood test. Unless the full facts are known, this sort of speculation is just as damaging as that rubbish on the AOL board.
Bobbsy
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It is wrong, and the current situation, where any allegations causing stress and disruption to individuals, companies, crew and passengers can be made maliciously without any comeback has to be looked at. It has happenned already in the UK as discussed previously.
A situation where a disgruntled passenger, security staff or colleague etc can make patently false accusations is no different to hoax bomb threats IMHO. It is fantastic to hear this colleague has been found to have no case to answer due to his innocence, but that does not end the incident or the questions raised as a result. Where does it end? 'Drunk crew' is as sensationlist a headline as it is a false accusation and a sleight on our professional standing. People have and will make these claims based on no professional training and without coming into contact on occasions with crew. If only for 'educating' those who make false claims need to be dealt with.
Regards
A situation where a disgruntled passenger, security staff or colleague etc can make patently false accusations is no different to hoax bomb threats IMHO. It is fantastic to hear this colleague has been found to have no case to answer due to his innocence, but that does not end the incident or the questions raised as a result. Where does it end? 'Drunk crew' is as sensationlist a headline as it is a false accusation and a sleight on our professional standing. People have and will make these claims based on no professional training and without coming into contact on occasions with crew. If only for 'educating' those who make false claims need to be dealt with.
Regards
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I have often wondered what I would do if the plod came to my cockpit before departure telling me they had received a report that I was drunk and wished me to take a breath or blood test. I am probably fooling myself, but I do not believe I would be outside my rights to agree to take the test, but only after I see the complaint in writing, with the name and address of my accuser clearly written on the letter making the allegation against me, with the clear inference that I will be taking the person making the allegation to court for every penny they own if I deliver a clean test.
Surely the police could be instructed to adopt a policy of informing any person attempting to place an anonymous report of this nature that their report will be ignored unless they are willing to give their name and address. If some such sytem is not adopted, we will quite possibly see flights cancelled and delayed by the dozen as those who think aeroplanes are polluting the environment realise they have stumbled on a surefire way of reducing such "polluting" flights.
Surely the police could be instructed to adopt a policy of informing any person attempting to place an anonymous report of this nature that their report will be ignored unless they are willing to give their name and address. If some such sytem is not adopted, we will quite possibly see flights cancelled and delayed by the dozen as those who think aeroplanes are polluting the environment realise they have stumbled on a surefire way of reducing such "polluting" flights.
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It is wrong, and the current situation, where any allegations causing stress and disruption to individuals, companies, crew and passengers can be made maliciously without any comeback has to be looked at. It has happenned already in the UK as discussed previously.
People who have genuine concerns should be able to report them to the police without fear of the consequences. The police officers are the ones who decide what action to take. I personally have reported someone for driving a car while I thought they were drunk.
It is what happens next that concerns me, as I said before there appears to be an issue that police officers responding to this sort of report seem "obliged" to test people using equipment that generates an unacceptably high level of false positives. This results in the mass of tabloid hysteria and the trashing of reputations and probably careers before the blood test turns out to have no alcohol.
I notice that very few media have this story while loads are covering the BA cabin crew one.... which sells more advertising.
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but I do not believe I would be outside my rights to agree to take the test, but only after I see the complaint in writing,
It is ludicrous to suggest that the police can only investigate an alleged (nb) crime if they tell the suspect exactly who has alerted them.
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I did lead with "I am probably fooling myself...", Unwell Raptor. I just cannot help but think that anonymously, and possibly maliciously, reporting aircrew as being drunk has hugely expensive implications, both for the airlines in delayed and cancelled flights, and for the aircrew involved in career threatening legal action.
I cannot help but think the airlines will eventually demand something like what I suggested above if such reports become frequent enough to affect the bottom line more than they are willing to bear. Sadly, I suspect that they will come up with some system in the meantime that will be even more intrusive into our already overregulated lives.
I cannot help but think the airlines will eventually demand something like what I suggested above if such reports become frequent enough to affect the bottom line more than they are willing to bear. Sadly, I suspect that they will come up with some system in the meantime that will be even more intrusive into our already overregulated lives.
Yet another example:
http://www.wisinfo.com/apps/pbcs.dll...D=200771120052
Interesting that the pilot was carrying a gun... Is this normal in the USA?
http://www.wisinfo.com/apps/pbcs.dll...D=200771120052
Interesting that the pilot was carrying a gun... Is this normal in the USA?
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Happily not yet "normal" but quite legal. Legislation was passed four or five years ago legalising armed flight crew on American airlines as a "security" measure.
As you can imagine, this was pretty controversial among aviation professionals.
FYI, there has even been talk of America asking permission for its pilots to be armed when flying to international destinations. See this article from a couple of months ago: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...ots-guns_x.htm
I can't imagine that being popular in many countries.
Bobbsy
As you can imagine, this was pretty controversial among aviation professionals.
FYI, there has even been talk of America asking permission for its pilots to be armed when flying to international destinations. See this article from a couple of months ago: http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/...ots-guns_x.htm
I can't imagine that being popular in many countries.
Bobbsy
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411A(Posting 106).
You are factually WRONG.No VS pilot has EVER been prosecuted re an aviation-related alcohol charge. The case to which I believe you refer(in the USA 4 years ago) was resolved without any mention or suggestion of alcohol,although the sensationalist reporting style at the time of the incident(not the prosecution itself)was very different.
If your posting contributes anything at all(debateable),it is to demonstrate the very damaging effect of innaccurate reporting and the corrosive results of the media being able to say pretty much what they like but NOT being required to reverse their sensationalism when the facts emerge,proving them wrong from the outset.
Now then 411A,point us all in the direction of ANY link or documentation which backs up your words-or offer an apology.
You are factually WRONG.No VS pilot has EVER been prosecuted re an aviation-related alcohol charge. The case to which I believe you refer(in the USA 4 years ago) was resolved without any mention or suggestion of alcohol,although the sensationalist reporting style at the time of the incident(not the prosecution itself)was very different.
If your posting contributes anything at all(debateable),it is to demonstrate the very damaging effect of innaccurate reporting and the corrosive results of the media being able to say pretty much what they like but NOT being required to reverse their sensationalism when the facts emerge,proving them wrong from the outset.
Now then 411A,point us all in the direction of ANY link or documentation which backs up your words-or offer an apology.
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If as you say, PB, the reporting of the USA incident and later prosecution was not related to alcohol, it certainly was not reported in the popular press at the time, nor later.
And, that of course, is part of the basic problem.
I would hardly imagine that the modus operande of the tabloid press nor electronic media is about to change, and I would further suspect that any legislation proposed is not going to change things either.
What to do?
You folks in the UK seem to like BALPA so much, why not start your own media distribution centre, and counter many of these allegedly false accusations?
It would seem to me that many of those same folks who so decry the alleged inaccurate reporting do little to alleviate the unfavorable situation.
IE: where is your media action group?
Seems to me what you folks need is a 'friendly' jurno who is attuned to your way of thinking...sadly, from some of the comments here, jurnos are not to be trusted.
Wonder why that is?
Complaining here on PPRuNe will hardly make a difference.
Now, if you would care to relate in a factual manner the complete details of the USA case, I might consider an apology, provided one is appropriate and in agreement with the facts.
Further, my comments earlier about the latest incident may well have been in error, and for that I would certainly apologise.
And, that of course, is part of the basic problem.
I would hardly imagine that the modus operande of the tabloid press nor electronic media is about to change, and I would further suspect that any legislation proposed is not going to change things either.
What to do?
You folks in the UK seem to like BALPA so much, why not start your own media distribution centre, and counter many of these allegedly false accusations?
It would seem to me that many of those same folks who so decry the alleged inaccurate reporting do little to alleviate the unfavorable situation.
IE: where is your media action group?
Seems to me what you folks need is a 'friendly' jurno who is attuned to your way of thinking...sadly, from some of the comments here, jurnos are not to be trusted.
Wonder why that is?
Complaining here on PPRuNe will hardly make a difference.
Now, if you would care to relate in a factual manner the complete details of the USA case, I might consider an apology, provided one is appropriate and in agreement with the facts.
Further, my comments earlier about the latest incident may well have been in error, and for that I would certainly apologise.
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Tell you what 411A-apology not necessary.
What I would say though,is that what comes out of this is that your perception of VS has clearly been influenced by the manner in which this case was reported-so it is reasonable to suppose that the public would react similarly. The degree of presumption is considerable and this is both damaging and highly regrettable.
With regard to the case in the USA,the crew member was indeed arrested on suspicion of being over the b/a limit.This was reported in a BLAZE of sensational global publicity. After having had his passport witheld and spending around 7 months in the USA ,he pled guilty to a relatively minor charge in which alcohol did not feature AT ALL. Oddly,none of this was reported anywhere. However,as your posting 106 proves the damage had long since been done.
What I would say though,is that what comes out of this is that your perception of VS has clearly been influenced by the manner in which this case was reported-so it is reasonable to suppose that the public would react similarly. The degree of presumption is considerable and this is both damaging and highly regrettable.
With regard to the case in the USA,the crew member was indeed arrested on suspicion of being over the b/a limit.This was reported in a BLAZE of sensational global publicity. After having had his passport witheld and spending around 7 months in the USA ,he pled guilty to a relatively minor charge in which alcohol did not feature AT ALL. Oddly,none of this was reported anywhere. However,as your posting 106 proves the damage had long since been done.
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he pled guilty to a relatively minor charge in which alcohol did not feature AT ALL. Oddly,none of this was reported anywhere.
:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=138270
He copped a misdemeanor plea on the infamous "we didn't know we wuz going flying" claim. He had earlier resigned from VS, I guess that proves his innocence...
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Airbubba.As you've just proven,411A is not alone in his presumptions.
Either you accept the judicial system or you do not. You uphold the sound principal of innocent until proven guilty or you do not. Your (smart) posting makes it quite clear where you stand.
Note,please,that the court was unable to convict on any charge involving alcohol-had it been able to do so,it most certainly would have done.You are clearly not aware of the circumstances surrounding this case or of the defense of the accused. Neither are you aware of the legal,factual or personal aspects, yet you have chosen to pompously and publicly condemn the man. You're just the sort of balanced and fair-minded individual we need to sit on juries,aren't you?
Have you ever considered moving to down-market tabloid journalism? The only compliment I can consider is to say that you're emminently qualified.
Either you accept the judicial system or you do not. You uphold the sound principal of innocent until proven guilty or you do not. Your (smart) posting makes it quite clear where you stand.
Note,please,that the court was unable to convict on any charge involving alcohol-had it been able to do so,it most certainly would have done.You are clearly not aware of the circumstances surrounding this case or of the defense of the accused. Neither are you aware of the legal,factual or personal aspects, yet you have chosen to pompously and publicly condemn the man. You're just the sort of balanced and fair-minded individual we need to sit on juries,aren't you?
Have you ever considered moving to down-market tabloid journalism? The only compliment I can consider is to say that you're emminently qualified.
Last edited by President Bush; 25th Nov 2007 at 18:58.
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Neither are you aware of the legal,factual or personal aspects, yet you have chosen to pompously and publicly condemn the man.
I thought you said all this stuff was secret and not reported anywhere. Yep, you do owe 411A an apology.
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Extreme example but I hope there is or will be proper procedures for dealing with such false allegations. Perhaps Balpa should push to ensure there is adequate steps ?
Failing that, I expect that the media will contine, unabated.
BALPA members, what say you?
Put your money where your (collective) mouth is.
Urgently needed, in my considerered* opinion.
Nothing less will do.
Sorry, them's the facts.
* And, yes, I have been around a very long time is airline flying.
Find a receptive jurno, and consider soliciting his input.
Sadly, many expect that jurnos consider the other side of the story.
Make 'em listen.
To repeat, nothing else will do...reasonably.
The ball is clearly in BALPA's court.
IE: spend the funds necessary to make the reporting factual..
The American ALPA seems to do much better job.
Just an observation, you understand, but perception is everything.
Make it count.
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Punch and Judy
Our parliamentarians have created laws to prevent aviators practicing their skills whilst intoxicated.
I note they have not created a similar law to prevent parliamentarians practicing whilst intoxicated.
It would seem the second consideration should be given a higher priority given the mess these politicians have created during the past 10 years.
I note they have not created a similar law to prevent parliamentarians practicing whilst intoxicated.
It would seem the second consideration should be given a higher priority given the mess these politicians have created during the past 10 years.
