Virgin Co-Pilot arrested, allegedly over alcohol limit. No case to answer.
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Why couldn't the police have done the testing - onboard there and then, Then If he was under the limit, There would have being no delay, No cause for concern, And most of all no embarrasment of everyone deplaning at the F/O expense??
I have never understood why the police cannot give a full result at the roadside, Or in this situation on an Aircraft.
Without arresting someone, Taking them to the station and then doing the same test again, Can't they do all this away from the station??
There is not much travelling time before they get to the station anyway.
I have never understood this - Mind you I have never understood the police!!
There a law to themselves!!
I have never understood why the police cannot give a full result at the roadside, Or in this situation on an Aircraft.
Without arresting someone, Taking them to the station and then doing the same test again, Can't they do all this away from the station??
There is not much travelling time before they get to the station anyway.
I have never understood this - Mind you I have never understood the police!!
There a law to themselves!!
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The roadside breathalyser is not sufficiently accurate. If you fail the roadside test you are taken to the police station where you are tested on a much more accurate machine, and it is that machine which the police use to determine if you are over the limit. Perhaps they could do it all at the roadside but it would mean driving a van around with the calibrated machine in the back. Hardly practical or a good use of taxpayers money.
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Why couldn't the police have done the testing - onboard there and then, Then If he was under the limit, There would have being no delay, No cause for concern, And most of all no embarrasment of everyone deplaning at the F/O expense??
After the unfortunate event in April, when a teetotal Virgin pilot was wrongly accused yet 'failed' a breath test due to acetones in his breath from an over-enthusiastic adoption of the Atkins diet, I imagine and hope that the testing carried out now will be fully verified before any statements are made about the pilot's blood/alcohol level. That will take a little time.
As for reporting of pilots, it may be distasteful and demeaning but it will happen, and there is little rational or moral argument you can make against it. If safety is indeed paramount, then it must be subject to scrutiny - even from non-experts. If only there was a visual/smell test for fatigue!
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If you fail the roadside test you are taken to the police station where you are tested on a much more accurate machine, and it is that machine which the police use to determine if you are over the limit.
The law has just been changed to allow use of the next generation of roadside machines that will be accurate enough to use as evidence without the palaver of going to the police station. These machines are expensive though and they are likely to come into use slowly. The other problem is that drivers who blow between 40 and 50 ucg/100ml are entitled to blood or urine testing, so that will mean a trip to the nick too.
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Are we seeing some sort of a trend here? In this week alone 3 cases of alledged drinking & flying show up at Pprune. Is this the new weapon of aircrew massive distruction?! "Hey, I don't like this Capt... I think he smells of alchool, don't you think? Gimme the cellphone... that'll teach him".
GD&L
GD&L
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Those of you who have been in the situation of living out of suitcases and coping with all the lifestyle consequences that go hand in hand with that, will appreciate that alcohol does play a significant role in the lives of some of our colleagues. These people need help and support and not hounded by people who obviously have no idea of how tiring and disruptive such a lifestyle can be! Even Lewis Hamilton said how his lifestyle was suffering due to 'living out of a suitcase' and not seeing friends and family often!
We all have a few drinks down route in the bar once we land but turning up from home and being accused of being under the influence is potentially pointing to a problem, which needs help! I hope this F/O does get the help and support that he needs if he is found to have reported whilst under the influence.
I fly short haul and spend most of my life away in hotels and I fly with people who do find that they need a drink every day after they fly. Having your bodyclock shot to pieces when you do longhaul will no doubt compound the problem further!
We all have a few drinks down route in the bar once we land but turning up from home and being accused of being under the influence is potentially pointing to a problem, which needs help! I hope this F/O does get the help and support that he needs if he is found to have reported whilst under the influence.
I fly short haul and spend most of my life away in hotels and I fly with people who do find that they need a drink every day after they fly. Having your bodyclock shot to pieces when you do longhaul will no doubt compound the problem further!
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Originally Posted by Mister Geezer
I hope this F/O does get the help and support that he needs if he is found to have reported whilst under the influence.
I think that your post is just as damaging as the screaming, hysterical headline of the Daily Mail with their record of ignorance and lies. Until this pilot has actually been charged with anything and then found to be guilty of those charges then you should refrain from mawkish commentary.
May I remind you that the last time this happened, the pilot was found to have no alcohol in his system and the only reason there had been a false positive was because of excessive Ketones in his system due to a strict adherance to the Atkins diet. At the time, the torrent of abuse, schadenfreud and hysterical observation was enough to make one want to vomit when all that had happened, as in this case, was that someone on the ground had made an accusation and the pilot had been arrested based on that accusation and then had to give a blood sample. It takes about a week to 10 days for the results to get back to the police and for them to either formally charge the suspect or discharge him.
We still don't know who was the person who wrongly accused the other pilot of smelling as though he had alcohol on his breath. It is fairly obvious that the person who made the accusation was probably fairly sure about what they smelt. However, it is also fairly obvious that the person was a complete and total tosser because they applied their suspicion in isolation and without any other consideration or observation.
It is also very possible that the same thing has happened here. Someone has believed that they smelt something that they believe was alcohol from the pilot. An allegation is made and the police are bound to follow their procedures. If, it again turns out that the pilot was not under the influence of any alcohol then it is time that we looked at the way these allegations are handled.
In the meantime, we don't need sanctimonious sympathy or advice on how to look after this pilot. As and when the police either formally charge or discharge the pilot we can all have another rant, one way or the other.
The Cooler King
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Opinions about aircrew being taken from planes and from departure gates under suspicion of being 'over the limit' has been discussed to death on this forum over the years.
The same comments from the same folk - a thread like this is not worthy of comment. The link to the news website where the story is should be pasted in and those of you who feel the need to can read it and ponder on the event in your head.
Comments on it are a waste of bandwidth especially seeing as though most, if not all of you are unconnected to the incident in general apart from either sharing a simlar job title or having a passing interest in planes.
It's a bit like the hundreds of posts from the 'unqualified' about recent air crashes. Same old same old.
The same comments from the same folk - a thread like this is not worthy of comment. The link to the news website where the story is should be pasted in and those of you who feel the need to can read it and ponder on the event in your head.
Comments on it are a waste of bandwidth especially seeing as though most, if not all of you are unconnected to the incident in general apart from either sharing a simlar job title or having a passing interest in planes.
It's a bit like the hundreds of posts from the 'unqualified' about recent air crashes. Same old same old.
Too right Farrell old chasp. But you will never outlaw, exclude or re-educate the vacuous.
Maybe stay longer in the desert. 40 days and forty nights seems hardly long enough
Maybe stay longer in the desert. 40 days and forty nights seems hardly long enough
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> nteresting that some posters assume the FO was 'shopped' by Security and
> not a vengeful cabin crew member ...
This report says "Airport worker"..
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...9520-20024343/
..best ignore the headline or it might effect your blood pressure.
> not a vengeful cabin crew member ...
This report says "Airport worker"..
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstor...9520-20024343/
..best ignore the headline or it might effect your blood pressure.
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A Virgin pilot was arrested in a similar incident in April - but he was found to just have bad breath and cleared.
Reminds me of a cabin crew memo when I worked fo Ryanair telling cabin crew to have a shower before they came to work! As they had had compaints about smelly cc
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I was always wondering why all the threads with alcohol related issues are ones amongst longest ones?
Don't drink and drive is a gesture given to us (or we have had enlightened ourselves prior to that) by the Government,but I really don't know about ; Don't drink and fly, as the Government has It's say on it as well, big time!
About the enlightement of the pilots here???
There will always be a John Wayne somewhere out there even though we all tend to be "straight" most of our time and follow our stereotypes hoping we won't become one.
Well, maybe Richie is too good of a boss?
Don't drink and drive is a gesture given to us (or we have had enlightened ourselves prior to that) by the Government,but I really don't know about ; Don't drink and fly, as the Government has It's say on it as well, big time!
About the enlightement of the pilots here???
There will always be a John Wayne somewhere out there even though we all tend to be "straight" most of our time and follow our stereotypes hoping we won't become one.
Well, maybe Richie is too good of a boss?
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I think it takes about three weeks for the blood test results to return from the lab and I would be suprized if he could be charged without any evidence to support that charge.
So the answer to your question is if charges are to be made this would happen in the next week or so.
So the answer to your question is if charges are to be made this would happen in the next week or so.
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Food (or drink) for thought
Below is a paste from the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 to which we now come under.
93 Prescribed limit
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, or
(b) he carries out an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit.
(2) The prescribed limit of alcohol is (subject to subsection (3))—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(3) In relation to the aviation function specified in section 94(1)(h) the prescribed limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations amending subsection (2) or (3).
(5) Section 94 defines “aviation function” and “ancillary activity” for the purposes of this Part.
94 Aviation functions
(1) For the purposes of this Part the following (and only the following) are aviation functions—
(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,
(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight,
(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,
(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,
(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight,
(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to monitor or record the gaining of experience,
(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student), and
(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.
Note that Cabin Crew have the same limits as pilots.
Try this scenario:
You arrive in the flight deck on earlies with four sectors ahead of you completely sober and having not drunk any alcohol in the preceeding 48 hours (seriously, it can happen).
You spend a few minutes wiping down the Sidestick/control column, thrust levers, flap, speedbrake lever etc etc with a few alcohol based hand wipes the company thoughtfully provide for you in the crewroom.
With the last wipe you clean your hands all over, then a few moments later you casually wipe the back of your hand over your mouth/lips.
Next thing you know there`s a bit of a random check going on on the ramp and a very insistent policeman alongside airport official etc is asking you for a breathalyser sample.
You blow into the machine and find it reads 11 mg/100ml.
Now your being whisked off to the police station in view of pax waiting to board, including therein, a member of the press who gets the whole story from the dispatcher /baggage handler who is only to glad to spread the gossip.
Before you know it your in the paper next day and labelled a drunk, so on and so forth.
Far fetched....
I did all the above, only it was my breathalyser (AL6000) and very accurate (according to the price tag)
Same experiment but with alcohol based hand rub gel came up with a reading of 27mg/100ml. This no doubt would translate the next day to a comprehensive "Pilot 3 Times over the Limit" headline, just above your airlines name. blah blah, pilot drunk, blah blah, lives at risk, blah blah, public outraged, blah blah, share price fallen.....etc etc
Just a thought. (I was bored and waiting for slot)
93 Prescribed limit
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he performs an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit, or
(b) he carries out an activity which is ancillary to an aviation function at a time when the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit.
(2) The prescribed limit of alcohol is (subject to subsection (3))—
(a) in the case of breath, 9 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 20 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 27 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(3) In relation to the aviation function specified in section 94(1)(h) the prescribed limit is—
(a) in the case of breath, 35 microgrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres,
(b) in the case of blood, 80 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres, and
(c) in the case of urine, 107 milligrammes of alcohol in 100 millilitres.
(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations amending subsection (2) or (3).
(5) Section 94 defines “aviation function” and “ancillary activity” for the purposes of this Part.
94 Aviation functions
(1) For the purposes of this Part the following (and only the following) are aviation functions—
(a) acting as a pilot of an aircraft during flight,
(b) acting as flight navigator of an aircraft during flight,
(c) acting as flight engineer of an aircraft during flight,
(d) acting as flight radio-telephony operator of an aircraft during flight,
(e) acting as a member of the cabin crew of an aircraft during flight,
(f) attending the flight deck of an aircraft during flight to give or supervise training, to administer a test, to observe a period of practice or to monitor or record the gaining of experience,
(g) acting as an air traffic controller in pursuance of a licence granted under or by virtue of an enactment (other than a licence granted to a student), and
(h) acting as a licensed aircraft maintenance engineer.
Note that Cabin Crew have the same limits as pilots.
Try this scenario:
You arrive in the flight deck on earlies with four sectors ahead of you completely sober and having not drunk any alcohol in the preceeding 48 hours (seriously, it can happen).
You spend a few minutes wiping down the Sidestick/control column, thrust levers, flap, speedbrake lever etc etc with a few alcohol based hand wipes the company thoughtfully provide for you in the crewroom.
With the last wipe you clean your hands all over, then a few moments later you casually wipe the back of your hand over your mouth/lips.
Next thing you know there`s a bit of a random check going on on the ramp and a very insistent policeman alongside airport official etc is asking you for a breathalyser sample.
You blow into the machine and find it reads 11 mg/100ml.
Now your being whisked off to the police station in view of pax waiting to board, including therein, a member of the press who gets the whole story from the dispatcher /baggage handler who is only to glad to spread the gossip.
Before you know it your in the paper next day and labelled a drunk, so on and so forth.
Far fetched....
I did all the above, only it was my breathalyser (AL6000) and very accurate (according to the price tag)
Same experiment but with alcohol based hand rub gel came up with a reading of 27mg/100ml. This no doubt would translate the next day to a comprehensive "Pilot 3 Times over the Limit" headline, just above your airlines name. blah blah, pilot drunk, blah blah, lives at risk, blah blah, public outraged, blah blah, share price fallen.....etc etc
Just a thought. (I was bored and waiting for slot)
