Air Europa 738 at Katowice?

[Wojtus]

News from rmf.fm:

"Piloci hiszpańskiego Boeinga, który podczas lądowania zniszczył światła naprowadzające na lotnisku w Pyrzowicach byli trzeźwi. Takie są wstępne ustalenia komisji badającej przyczyny niedzielnego wypadku. Piloci w rozmowach z komisją wskazywali na rozbieżne wskazania przyrządów wspomagających proces lądowania. Analiza zapisów z czarnych skrzynek pomoże w wyjaśnieniu okoliczności wypadku."
(http://www.rmf.fm/fakty/?id=126174&temat=76)

Pilots of spanish Boeing which damaged approach lights on landing at Pyrzowice were sober. These are preliminary conclusions of the investigating board. During the talks with the board pilots pointed inconsistent indications of landing-supporting instruments. Blackbox analysis will contribute to explain the circumstances.

[Lazy skip]

Expressflight,
Try to google "Approach ban"
Ls

[B737Captain]

Hello. I work for Air Europa. Low visibility app are performed in dual channel (both autipilots) and it's recommended to perform an autoland. In CAT II&IIIA autoland in mandatory in our company. I know very well the crew of that flight. There were two Captains and a F/O flying that day. Both Captains are very good professionals with more than 20 years flying commercial airplanes. One of them is a TRE/TRI who has flown in the Spanish Airforce as flight instructor on the F5 fleet. The other one has flown a lot of aircrafts type, from DC3 to B767. They know what they are flying and I have no explanation of what had happened in Katowice that night. Air Europa has a very high security standards and all crewmembers are very well instructed on simulators about all emergency situations that can be found in manuals.
Please be patient. As soon as I have news of what happened I'll let all of you know but ,please, don't blame the crew since you have all the information about the accident. They are good pilots,good persons and excelent professionals.

PD: One thing is for sure. They were no drunk at all!

[captplaystation]

Jagohu, apologies for my patronising tone. I can only say in my defence, that like many on here I am frustrated when the same question is asked , when a wholly accurate and comprehensive explanation has already been proferred. I am sorry, like many of us in aviation, you have known individuals involved in something like this, and I respect your desire to know how this could happen. B737 Captain has already clarified the experience levels of crew involved , and the AEA SOP's, so it becomes a little harder to understand. For sure the FDR and CVR will yield some clues, as, without some serious malfunction within A/C or ILS there would have been an awful lot of noise going on in the cockpit that seems to have been ineffective in persuading the crew to correct the trajectory. Perhaps the length of the duty,(and those preceeding it) finishing in the middle of the night may have some bearing here. As always, sod's law dictates that the approach to minima will "always" be the last one at the end of a long day/night.

[Ptkay]

Both Captains are very good professionals with more than 20 years flying commercial airplanes. One of them is a TRE/TRI who has flown in the Spanish Airforce as flight instructor on the F5 fleet.

Doesn't it remind you about the Lufthansa accident in WAW ??

"I am the Capitan, TRE/TRI in the right seat, go-around is not an option..."

...without some serious malfunction within A/C or ILS...

As long as this possibility cannot be excluded, any further speculations
are completely fruitless.

[Bearcat]

irrespective of how brilliant the crew are, the bottom line is the approach lights tore the arse out the 737 and Wizz lands.

[captplaystation]

Two Capt's together (depending on the personalities involved ) is not always the optimum configuration from a CRM point of view ( IMHO), and of course just makes any whoopsy even more inexcusable to the investigators, who conveniently ignore that one guy is not in his "normal" role. . .even if he is a LTC / TRI / TRE. Most days I have spent in this config have been very pleasant, but the odd one has reminded me why I am SOOOO glad I fly in the LHS.

[eu01]

The preliminatory results of the investigation: both Capt's were sober. Relief anyway.
Source: rmf.fm

[B737Captain]

"Two Capt's together (depending on the personalities involved ) is not always the optimum configuration from a CRM point of view "


Well, as you may know, there's only ONE Captain in every flight... So, one of them was acting like Pilot in Command at this time and the other was just sitting at the jump seat...with the F/O assisting the Pilot Flying during the app. The CRM is not a fact in this case.

[B737Captain]

"irrespective of how brilliant the crew are, the bottom line is the approach lights tore the arse out the 737 and Wizz lands."


That's true but as I said before, please don't blame the Crew before the investigation is over... I know it's easier to kill the messenger but wait untill you have more details of the accident!!!!!!!

[Ptkay]

The CRM is not a fact in this case.

Good to know.
We hope, that due to your contacts you will be able to tell us
soon what it actually was...

Latest reports say, the damage to the a/c might be bigger than expected,
it is possible that the left engine digested some of the debris.

In Katowice there are no facilities to do major repairs,
so it might be a real headache for the owner.

[U 2]

Capt playstation, and others

I would strongly advice against an autoland when ground equipment
is cat I only

The ground equipment can simply not provide guidance below 200 feet

[Wojtus]

Radio part of ILS equipment for Cat I beams the same signal as Cat III ones. The main differences are airfield LVP procedures, higher requirements for ground lighting/markings and of course tougher standards to be met during flight-test of ILS. So you can't say Cat I ILS does not provide guidance below 200ft. It does, however crew should not trust this guidance and monitor Cat I autolanding carefully by visual means.

However I'm not sure if DME part is required to make an autoland. EPKT has Cat I ILS without DME, only markers.

Some additional statement from the news (source: onet.pl):
"According to pilots testimonials, during the the final part of landing contradictions of instruments readings have appeared, but there was no time to solve the doubts".

[E. MORSE]

Have to agree with U2

I would strongly advice against an autoland on Cat I ground equipment

[hetfield]

@Wojtus

ILS/DME is not required for autoland.

[threemiles]

"According to pilots testimonials, during the the final part of landing contradictions of instruments readings have appeared, but there was no time to solve the doubts".

That's why it is CAT I only and not certified for anything better.

[Lucky Angel]

With all the respect to the pilots i think this was a typical scenario of the tendency to dive for the lights once you have them in sight. I've seen it before and believe me if you don't place it in your mind not to do that beforehand then its very tempting to go below the G/S in poor visibility. I remind you that in 500m vis or thereabouts, the 1st thing you see is the approach lights so going towards them is your natural instinct. I think they realised but slightly late.
But then again thats my opinion and i could be wrong.

[Ptkay]

In the same link, that Wojtus posted,
the Prosecutors Office confirms, that all the pilots were sober.
Also information, that the damages exceed several millions $$,
and that both the carrier and the airport may be rising claims.
Question is, against whom ???
Against each other ???

[Ptkay]

A7696/07 - Rwy 27 Precision Approach Category I Lightning System U/s. 28 Oct
05:30 2007
Until 30 Oct 23:59 2007 Estimated. Created: 28 Oct 06:01 2007a7702/07 - Rwy
27 Simplified Approach Lighting System Cross Installed.
Simplified Approach Lighting System Axis Length 420m And Bar
300m From Thr 27. 28 Oct 16:10 2007 Until 30 Nov 23:59 2007 Estimated.
Created:
28 Oct 16:11 2007
A7704/07 - Rwy 27 Flashing Lights Avbl Along Simplified Approach
Lighting System Axis. Flashing Lights System Length 420m. 28 Oct 16:40 2007
Until 30 Nov 23:59 2007 Estimated. Created: 28 Oct 16:41 2007

[Mach trim]

Accident investigators

It amazes me people and the press jumping to conclusions and speculating
until the facts are in.

I ask some of you, do you think you are better than an accident investigator ?

Could it happen to you ?

Please let's just have facts only.