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SAS Q400 gear collaps CPH 27/10

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SAS Q400 gear collaps CPH 27/10

Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:06
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It seems unusual that a single airline would suffer from a similar fault 3 times in the space of a couple of months that apparently hasn't affected the rest of the worldwide fleet
But it has affected the worldwide fleet. Tyrolean, ANA, Flybe and Horizon have all had tech problems with gear, erroneous fire warnings, in-flight engine shut-downs, software etc.
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:10
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F_Hercules
If you have been a pilot in SAS for the last 10 years, why have you been working with some other European airlines lately?
You do know that it's still possible to get some leave of absence... and then try some other stuff, right?
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:26
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I was trying to focus on the MLG issues, but you are correct. The Q400 had a number of issues when it was placed into service, to my knowledge few issues remain with the aircraft. Even ANA's NLG issues were tracked down to a design flaw and an re-assembly error. With not even an initial report on the cause of this incident it seems a little quick to be getting rid of the fleet.
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:29
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Phoenix,

Are you still on leave of absence?
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:30
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I believe Tyrolean had a problem with MLG caused by hairline cracks. Combined with other problems that they were having, actually suspended purchase of further aircraft until all issues had been rectified or addressed satisfactorily.
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:33
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Mercenary Pilot,

Well I wasn't aware of that. I think I'll duck out of this thread and leave it to people with knowledge of the aircraft type
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 21:37
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Mercenary pilot,

Do you have any info regarding "other problems" that Tyrolean are having with Q4?
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 22:11
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Wonder what will happen with their frames.. museums? restaurants? scrap metal? Sell them to Africa/South America?
  • Maybe the Canadian Privy Council Office (the main guy hates National Defence if Macleans is to be believed) will get them for the Canadian Forces, tell 'em "you don't *really* need a ramp do you?" and sneakily sell on the new C-130Js
  • Rip all the stuff out of the CP-140s they aren't upgrading and stuff it into the Qs.
  • BBD could make Q400MR firebombers out of them like the ones the French are using and sell them to Governator Ahnuld.
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 22:44
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F_Hercules,

No.. And I was talking in general. Established carriers still offer the possibility of trying different things.
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Old 28th Oct 2007, 22:58
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Alexmcfire: Why do you think Wideroe also will dump their 100/300? Why should they? 100/300 is a totally different aircraft, other type of landing gear system ++++.... And there is no option for the short runways we are operating from.
[Quote]
Yes, one Senegalese aircraft DASH8-100 I think had gear failure.
I flewn on Kato Air Do228 from Bodö to Röst and this plane is one option, I´m
sure there´s others.
Why? Depends on the publics opinion, luckily none has died in a DASH8 crash since 1994 in Nz.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 00:01
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Swapping a Dash 8-100/300 for a Do 228 to improve safety might not be the best idea. Apart from the 228s lack of pressurization and therefore lack of ability to climb above the worst weather, it is certified to part 23 while the Dash 8s are certified to part 25 standards. Those looking for extra gear safety should maybe look at the single wheels on the Dornier as compared to twin wheels on the Dash.....

Without having flown a Do 228 I assume that the general performance of the Q100/300 is better.

It'l be very interesting to read the accident report on the last Q400 accident.

Given the "series" and the reaction of the press to the last incident SAS probably did not have much of a choice. It can't be easy for them to replace 25 A/C more or less overnight. The "5% of pax" in the press release smells like a decoy. Must be a lot more than 5% of departures.....
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 02:34
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Waveman - as far as I'm aware Flybe is the only 400 operator that recommends flap 35 landings as the standard,

That's incorrect. Horizon uses flap 35 landings under all but CAT IIIA approaches and landings.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 03:30
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Thanks Fokker28.

The raison d'etre behind flap 35s at Flybe is a few scares at GCI in the early days, when the combination of a Vref of 1.3Vs (now 1.23Vs) and flap 15 caused a couple of near overruns.

Uncle maxwell - not an SOP consideration, it's just to avoid the damage that would be caused by a 'powered' prop breaking apart on contact with the runway.

Here's something for discussion - in circumstances such as this, (high wing, high gear types) how many of you would consider retracting the good leg and doing a belly-landing? and possibly on the grass adjacent the runway if sufficient length was available. Doing so would lessen the fire risk that may arise if one day one of the wings contacting the runway were to fracture.

I believe an F27 once did such a landing and was back in service just a few days later.

Just a thought.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 06:42
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LOA

Hi Hercules

In 2003 SAS laid off 360 pilots, and wanted to lay off 150 more. The pilot union offered to get 150 to take voluntary leave of absence, to prevent further layoffs. I was one of those volunteers. I get to keep my pension, insurance and seniority, while another company pays my salary.
I was called back in june last year(to fly FCQ400), I am on LOA again, flying B767, and am due to go back again in jan. 2008( at least that was the plan before this happened.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 07:38
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Wow the level of B.S is just incredible! G.S Willy.."technical standard in SAS is very good, apart from the standard on the Q400"
What a stupid statement!

Of course it's a problem with SAS technical. They have been using junior AMEs on the aircraft since the beginning. No wonder why it kept having problems...why just SAS? Ask Horizon what they think about the Q400? THEY FLY IN COASTAL AREAS MOSTLY!!

Well, from a good source, I have been told that the problems at SAS...the first two where due to a substance on the gear that SAS was using. A corrosive non aviation substance. Let me say again NON AVIATION grade substance that SAS mechanic's where using.

The ANA incident was a maint. issue (a bolt that was not installed right/loose/missing - you tell me)

I don't want to start crap across the pound, but I have noticed that Europeans have been way too critical against N.American aircraft...believe me when I say that ATR is not half the A/C that the Q400 is! Th Q400 is the best 70-80 seat turbo prop in the world & nobody can dispute that!

Conclusion:
management made a good choice to dump the fleet since people are scared ****less! But SAS is to blame!

Maybe if they would of let somebody else take care of the airplanes, all would be fine!
Thank you SAS who have ruined the imagine of a super aircraft!

Hopefully the Danish people are told the truth about what is going on! Not the B.S their politicians are feeding them because of "Elections"
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 07:47
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I don't want to start crap across the pound, but I have noticed that Europeans have been way too critical against N.American aircraft...believe me when I say that ATR is not half the A/C that the Q400 is! Th Q400 is the best 70-80 seat turbo prop in the world & nobody can dispute that!


Why should I believe you? At your age (if profile is correct) I wonder just how much experience you have of either the Q400 or an ATR? I certainly dispute your comment.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 08:04
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Before people start throwing around blame, maybe one should look at facts and an interresting question could be, is/has SAS's Q400's been different than the rest of them?

To my knowledge SAS's Q400's has been flying with the optional high pressure tire for many years, as the only operator in the world, only recently switching to the standard low pressure tire. Is the high pressure tire harder on the gear?
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 08:14
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Many good points ICE and welcome. The common denominator is still SAS, be it maintenance or their specific operating conditions or even just bad luck. They have taken the right action for the airline but it risks unfounded damage to the overall reputation of the Q400.

RAFMAN

I would not elect a gear up landing. Unlike the alloy props of old D8s the carbon fibre prop disintegrates causing lots of damage. Pictures from Dowty of the interior of the first SAS incident tell us that there is a high likelihood of fatality. Large carbon fragments penetrated the cabin and damaged seats. Trying to do a complete power off landing with both engines shut down and feathered does not sound advisable.
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 08:22
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Why should I believe you? At your age (if profile is correct) I wonder just how much experience you have of either the Q400 or an ATR? I certainly dispute your comment.
I don't have experience flying the aircraft. But I have seen the Numbers & the Q400 has by far the best CASM.....not to mention better performance.

You don't need any flight time to answer that question!
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Old 29th Oct 2007, 08:32
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Theiceman, what did your good source tell you about other operators and corrosion on the same parts that were affected on the sas aircraft?

What is wrong with the statement that you classified as B.S?
Isn´t the technical standard in SAS very good, apart from the standard on the Q400?
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