DELTA furloughs
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DELTA furloughs
Just turned on CNN here in Florida to see that DELTA are laying off 1700 pilots. Came into Miami on an Air France flight that was full but generally everything here is doom and gloom. Most of the hotels in MIA are empty. Security in general has improved. God bless America!
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Big question now for Delta is:
What will be the furlough implementation rate? How many per month?
Among the US majors, Delta apparently has the most cash - something like $2.5 billion. Let's hope things get better and those Delta pilots who DO get furloughed are not out for long...
You know it's not a good thing when the world's most profitable airline starts to lay off pilots...
Let's hope that Delta's management is not using the crisis as an excuse to circumvent labor agreements and prune costs (probably the case...). Good luck to all involved!
What will be the furlough implementation rate? How many per month?
Among the US majors, Delta apparently has the most cash - something like $2.5 billion. Let's hope things get better and those Delta pilots who DO get furloughed are not out for long...
You know it's not a good thing when the world's most profitable airline starts to lay off pilots...
Let's hope that Delta's management is not using the crisis as an excuse to circumvent labor agreements and prune costs (probably the case...). Good luck to all involved!
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Wakey, wakey guys
I do not wish disaster on any US airline, but the pilots are about to bring it on their own heads. The recent salary deal for pilots at Delta is laughable in the light of likely losses the company will incur. United may go bust soon and others may follow. If you do not start sorting out your salaries - ie lowering them massively - then you will have no airline to fly for. I know this will upset many of you ALPA boys (I am a BALPA member by the way), but if you continue in the fantasy world many of you are living in, then it will be game over. Don't say you weren't warned!
I do not wish disaster on any US airline, but the pilots are about to bring it on their own heads. The recent salary deal for pilots at Delta is laughable in the light of likely losses the company will incur. United may go bust soon and others may follow. If you do not start sorting out your salaries - ie lowering them massively - then you will have no airline to fly for. I know this will upset many of you ALPA boys (I am a BALPA member by the way), but if you continue in the fantasy world many of you are living in, then it will be game over. Don't say you weren't warned!
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absolute horse **** NSF; schedules will be axed if they are unprofitable-the hard won pay deals would not make any difference to any but the most borderline case, few enough to count on the fingers of one hand Im sure.
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Comair pilots tell me that their own corner of the Delta game will be the big winners. Delta is already assigning many of the "borderline" routes to them because they can make money flying them with RJ's where Delta's big jets and big salaries chalk up a huge loss.
Where do you think Delta's big cash stash come from in the first place? It sure wasn't from the past few years of mainline flying; it was that 110 RJ's being flown by the guys on food stamps!
Where do you think Delta's big cash stash come from in the first place? It sure wasn't from the past few years of mainline flying; it was that 110 RJ's being flown by the guys on food stamps!
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Beautifully, and accurately stated, Norman.
Well done, that man.
For those of you STILL in doubt about what the current climate REALLY means, have a look at my post at 'Terms of Endearment' under SR vs. LX
Time to wake up and sniff the Kenyan Blue Mountain, chaps.
GET ON WITH IT!
Well done, that man.
For those of you STILL in doubt about what the current climate REALLY means, have a look at my post at 'Terms of Endearment' under SR vs. LX
Time to wake up and sniff the Kenyan Blue Mountain, chaps.
GET ON WITH IT!
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to all you that are sitting fat dumb and happy on your flightdecks thinking redundancy won't happen to you. well wake up and smell the coffee.
sick
what the fcuk is the point in forcing pay issues when say, in a few months you might not have a salary at all. your salaries ain't bad at present - nor are your allowances, so why not just ride out the storm for a while (maybe 12mths) and give your company time to stabilize its finances. just remember its better to have a flying job that doesn't pay the most, than it is to not have a flying job and pay far less.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: BOEINGBOY1 ]
sick
what the fcuk is the point in forcing pay issues when say, in a few months you might not have a salary at all. your salaries ain't bad at present - nor are your allowances, so why not just ride out the storm for a while (maybe 12mths) and give your company time to stabilize its finances. just remember its better to have a flying job that doesn't pay the most, than it is to not have a flying job and pay far less.
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: BOEINGBOY1 ]
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They do have a "no furlough" clause but given
the current economic atmosphere there's no way in hell the union could win this.
If all you see and hear on TV is about the "new war on terror" and the 9/11 atrocities including the fact that 9/11 is to blame for a lot of airline financial misery, then it's an uphill battle at best.
It doesn't hurt to try though.
the current economic atmosphere there's no way in hell the union could win this.
If all you see and hear on TV is about the "new war on terror" and the 9/11 atrocities including the fact that 9/11 is to blame for a lot of airline financial misery, then it's an uphill battle at best.
It doesn't hurt to try though.
My sympathies to any and all furloughed pilots, especially those with children or others having serious medical conditions.
Besides increased flying for Comair, will ASA or Skywest etc increase their lists of cities and/or frequencies? If a substantial portion of this takes place, will Delta's Pilot Contract language limit how much flying is "spun off", thereby preventing longer furloughs for Delta pilots?
It would be tragic to have flying permanently switched to codeshare partners, which could prevent some pilots from being recalled to work.
Besides increased flying for Comair, will ASA or Skywest etc increase their lists of cities and/or frequencies? If a substantial portion of this takes place, will Delta's Pilot Contract language limit how much flying is "spun off", thereby preventing longer furloughs for Delta pilots?
It would be tragic to have flying permanently switched to codeshare partners, which could prevent some pilots from being recalled to work.
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This is a post on another message board from a well known delta pilot who is commenting on the issue (he hasn't been furloughed)
Well, this is my opinion here...
First, DALPA is in the process of suing the company for attempting to break our contract. Any pilot on the seniority list as of July 1, 2001 CANNOT BE FURLOUGHED.
Primarily, there is a large union push among the employee groups at Delta. Delta's trying to make an example out of us to show the other employees the "value" of a union by furloughing, or threatening to furlough, a ****load of pilots.
I can't tell you how pissed I am, not to mention embarassed that they'd use September 11th to serve as an excuse.
I'll try and post the news release from my union a little later on tonight or tomorrow about what's going to take place legally.
I have a lot of friends that are within the furlough target and it hurts me greatly that the company I so proudly raved about would do something like this.
First, DALPA is in the process of suing the company for attempting to break our contract. Any pilot on the seniority list as of July 1, 2001 CANNOT BE FURLOUGHED.
Primarily, there is a large union push among the employee groups at Delta. Delta's trying to make an example out of us to show the other employees the "value" of a union by furloughing, or threatening to furlough, a ****load of pilots.
I can't tell you how pissed I am, not to mention embarassed that they'd use September 11th to serve as an excuse.
I'll try and post the news release from my union a little later on tonight or tomorrow about what's going to take place legally.
I have a lot of friends that are within the furlough target and it hurts me greatly that the company I so proudly raved about would do something like this.
Out of 7 crews, 4 have been removed from the active list, what did we do about it, nothing we accaepted it. The way the world is , is it worth fighting the companies no why not just wait and see if they recover, I am hopeful to get my job back in the future and no we don't get paid loads of money, I am on the same as I was when I flew for another company 3 years ago and they were not the highest payers then. Taking action at this time in the industry is sheer madness.
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The DALPA deal added half a billion dollars of cost to the bottom line at Delta, per year.
That's more money that Delta made, cumulatively, in the past decade.
Anyone who reckons that this isn't going to have a negative effect on Delta - or indeed any company - frankly shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an aircraft.
That's more money that Delta made, cumulatively, in the past decade.
Anyone who reckons that this isn't going to have a negative effect on Delta - or indeed any company - frankly shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an aircraft.
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If it is that much guv then Im quite surprised, though there are an awful lot of pilots there, (I dont work there-know someone who does). But generally I am against agreeing to pay cuts during hard times because they rarely improve the survivability of the airline significantly and as Cathay pilots found, it's very difficult to win the original deal back when the good times roll. There are other, better ways to reduce pilot costs which essentially preserve the pay agreement.
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Sick - that figure came from Delta themselves.
Personally, I'm a firm believer in profit sharing coupled with reasonable base salaries. That way, when the good times roll round (as they always do) everyone benefits; and when times are hard then the company isn't overburdened with high costs. One advantage of this is that the need for layoffs of staff would be minimised.
It works at Southwest - why not elsewhere? And for those that say that management will fudge the figures, then use the same criteria as that for management bonuses!
Personally, I'm a firm believer in profit sharing coupled with reasonable base salaries. That way, when the good times roll round (as they always do) everyone benefits; and when times are hard then the company isn't overburdened with high costs. One advantage of this is that the need for layoffs of staff would be minimised.
It works at Southwest - why not elsewhere? And for those that say that management will fudge the figures, then use the same criteria as that for management bonuses!
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Hi!
My first message here. Just had to register when I saw this thread! I'm a DL Million Miler - one of your (pilot's) real bosses, the ones that pay your salary. I fully agree on NSF; it's an outrage that the pilots even dream about pay raises and even contracts during the times like this. I run an own small business and I think I know what I'm talking about.
Shame on you! The next time we will meet, I'll take a different look at you, the holy pilot. You will recognize me, I'm the one whom doesn't fall on my knees to praise you.
Let Delta - and my miles - live!!!
My first message here. Just had to register when I saw this thread! I'm a DL Million Miler - one of your (pilot's) real bosses, the ones that pay your salary. I fully agree on NSF; it's an outrage that the pilots even dream about pay raises and even contracts during the times like this. I run an own small business and I think I know what I'm talking about.
Shame on you! The next time we will meet, I'll take a different look at you, the holy pilot. You will recognize me, I'm the one whom doesn't fall on my knees to praise you.
Let Delta - and my miles - live!!!
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FFPax wrote:
Regardless of what you think, you don't know what you're talking about. Delta pilots ARE NOT talking about pay raises. We HAVE a contract. The raises in our recent contract only brought us up to historical parity with inflation. Our CEO Leo Mullin has been frequently quoted saying just that. The vast majority of other professions's salaries are increasing by far faster than that of pilots. Pilots' salaries are only breaking even in inflation-adjusted dollars. If you think that's unfair...deal with it!
Delta's operating profit in 1995 was $700M. It was $1.3 BILLION in 1996, $1.6 BILLION in 1997, $1.76 BILLION in 1998, $1.9 BILLION in 1999, and $1.9 BILLION in 2000. An increase of labor costs of $100M/year over 5 years is nothing. At the end of the September 2001 quarter, Delta had $2.8 BILLION in cash, and $8.9 BILLION in unencombered aircraft assets. They still expect to have $2.3 BILLION in cash at the end of the year. November bookings are down only 5%, December down 4%. Leo says traffic will be at pre-9/11 levels by Q2 2002. Goldman Sachs is predicting a full-year profit for Delta in 2002.
Yet with the announced furloughs, retirements and military callups, our pilot force will be reduced by approximately 25%. It doesn't add up. It's a BS bluff, and we're not falling for it. We have filed a grievance due to the violation of our contract, and we will win.
All you guys so spun up about about pilot salaries, mind your own damn business, and get a life!
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: MikeM727 ]
it's an outrage that the pilots even dream about pay raises and even contracts during the times like this. I run an own small business and I think I know what I'm talking about.
Delta's operating profit in 1995 was $700M. It was $1.3 BILLION in 1996, $1.6 BILLION in 1997, $1.76 BILLION in 1998, $1.9 BILLION in 1999, and $1.9 BILLION in 2000. An increase of labor costs of $100M/year over 5 years is nothing. At the end of the September 2001 quarter, Delta had $2.8 BILLION in cash, and $8.9 BILLION in unencombered aircraft assets. They still expect to have $2.3 BILLION in cash at the end of the year. November bookings are down only 5%, December down 4%. Leo says traffic will be at pre-9/11 levels by Q2 2002. Goldman Sachs is predicting a full-year profit for Delta in 2002.
Yet with the announced furloughs, retirements and military callups, our pilot force will be reduced by approximately 25%. It doesn't add up. It's a BS bluff, and we're not falling for it. We have filed a grievance due to the violation of our contract, and we will win.
All you guys so spun up about about pilot salaries, mind your own damn business, and get a life!
[ 03 November 2001: Message edited by: MikeM727 ]
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MikeM:
Hmm, good posting mate.
You said it....
Hope it will pan out like the forecast's ya quoted.
(AA is painting a pretty grim picture these days: Yet we have some 2.3 Billion in short term investment and quite a few mill in cash.
As the contract is up for negotiations, the picture will remain bleak for a while..)
Hmm, good posting mate.
You said it....
Hope it will pan out like the forecast's ya quoted.
(AA is painting a pretty grim picture these days: Yet we have some 2.3 Billion in short term investment and quite a few mill in cash.
As the contract is up for negotiations, the picture will remain bleak for a while..)
