320/737 25-year-old commander and 19-year-old first officer
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Re. Guy Gibson, there was a suggestion recently that he wasn't familiar with fuel selecting on his Mosquito which may well have led to his demise - anyway he was not over popular, though nowhere near to the degree of the hugely over-rated Bader.
More to the point, I was astonished to hear from someone I know that he's just gained airliner command - I've flown with him in light aircraft & he was exemplary, but in mid 20's seems far too young to me...
More to the point, I was astonished to hear from someone I know that he's just gained airliner command - I've flown with him in light aircraft & he was exemplary, but in mid 20's seems far too young to me...
Double Zero,
The fact is during WW2 there were many very young commanders who did jobs way beyond their years. The "picture boys" may not have been all they were cracked up to be but there were a lot that were. Nowadays a couple of seasons in UK charter for talented pilots are all that are needed to be competent Captains. Unfortunately young guys who become decent Captains tend to be subject to jealousy from the older guys who struggled to make it. I can remember "idiotic" comments about a 28 yr old Capt at Virgin who became a TRE at 31 who was excellent at what he did. I do remember having to drink alone with him in a bar after all the cabin crew had gone to a "happening place", but because he had no passport he was chucked out.
p.s. does anyone else remember the stunning goal that Michael Owen scored against the Argies. He was 18! Maybe if you are good enough you are old enough!
The fact is during WW2 there were many very young commanders who did jobs way beyond their years. The "picture boys" may not have been all they were cracked up to be but there were a lot that were. Nowadays a couple of seasons in UK charter for talented pilots are all that are needed to be competent Captains. Unfortunately young guys who become decent Captains tend to be subject to jealousy from the older guys who struggled to make it. I can remember "idiotic" comments about a 28 yr old Capt at Virgin who became a TRE at 31 who was excellent at what he did. I do remember having to drink alone with him in a bar after all the cabin crew had gone to a "happening place", but because he had no passport he was chucked out.
p.s. does anyone else remember the stunning goal that Michael Owen scored against the Argies. He was 18! Maybe if you are good enough you are old enough!
TopSlide6:
My comments were only made in order to provoke a discussion, not provoke or insult anybody. It is my sincere belief that very little of one's delicate ego should be allowed into a c0ckpit or into a Pprune discussion. Read much further down to discover what I left out of the previous post.
Just two/three general questions come to mind. You stated that "Age and experience are not linked", or something like that. But I'm a slow learner.
If a pilot has flown more or less full-time since age 22, how are increases in age an experience not directly linked? But I'm certainly not the smartest type "of guy. It was my mistaken impression that more experience usually benefits "situational awareness. Maybe theory is, to some extent, an adequate substitute-for just some of the IOE hours. We Yanks often don't have nearly as much theoretical grounding as those east of the Atlantic. Some study guides here are a bit of a joke, regarding the 727 "FE written exam" etc.
Where in my previous have I said that older pilots are better, because of their age? Most of my learning has gone from 'my' First Officers-they run the show on the ground and I pace calling of checklists based upon their many duties and better memories of many things (and we have no computers to fly the old airplanes).
At the end of a Pink Floyd song (The Dark Side O.T.M.), the guy says "Good manners don't cost nothing...".
Well, no matter which Trans-atlantic misunderstandings pop up, you English guys have always produced the best rock and roll bands of all time (Mott. Deep P., Led Z...), and many excellent aircraft-and our guys were not required to pilot 2- or 4-engine bombers and transports solo!
My comments were only made in order to provoke a discussion, not provoke or insult anybody. It is my sincere belief that very little of one's delicate ego should be allowed into a c0ckpit or into a Pprune discussion. Read much further down to discover what I left out of the previous post.
Just two/three general questions come to mind. You stated that "Age and experience are not linked", or something like that. But I'm a slow learner.
If a pilot has flown more or less full-time since age 22, how are increases in age an experience not directly linked? But I'm certainly not the smartest type "of guy. It was my mistaken impression that more experience usually benefits "situational awareness. Maybe theory is, to some extent, an adequate substitute-for just some of the IOE hours. We Yanks often don't have nearly as much theoretical grounding as those east of the Atlantic. Some study guides here are a bit of a joke, regarding the 727 "FE written exam" etc.
Where in my previous have I said that older pilots are better, because of their age? Most of my learning has gone from 'my' First Officers-they run the show on the ground and I pace calling of checklists based upon their many duties and better memories of many things (and we have no computers to fly the old airplanes).
At the end of a Pink Floyd song (The Dark Side O.T.M.), the guy says "Good manners don't cost nothing...".
Well, no matter which Trans-atlantic misunderstandings pop up, you English guys have always produced the best rock and roll bands of all time (Mott. Deep P., Led Z...), and many excellent aircraft-and our guys were not required to pilot 2- or 4-engine bombers and transports solo!
Last edited by Ignition Override; 25th Aug 2007 at 06:41.
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As far as I know most countries in the world have a minimum experience requirement for the ATPL, in most if not all cases a TT of 1500 hours. With an ATPL and a type rating you meet the minimum requirements for captain. What is the big deal??? It's no rocket science, you know. Being in charge of the whole show is not that big a deal, just use common sense. I had my first command on a turbo prop at 23, first command on the 737 at 31. Guys in my company had their command on the 737 at 25 or 26. NO PROBLEM!!!!!!
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Virga
You're missing the point, the age is not the issue, it's the experience.
Yes, you can get an ATPL with 1500hrs, so yes, theoretically you can have a command, on anything from a Seneca to a 747. However, it is patently absurd to suggest that while 1500hrs is good enough experience to command a light aircraft it is also good enough to command a commercial jet.
Hence companies impose their own limits in the Ops Manual (which must, don't forget, be approved by the authorities, and can only be changed with the approval of same).
If you think you were good enough for a jet command at 1500hrs, you're either lying or mad.
You're missing the point, the age is not the issue, it's the experience.
Yes, you can get an ATPL with 1500hrs, so yes, theoretically you can have a command, on anything from a Seneca to a 747. However, it is patently absurd to suggest that while 1500hrs is good enough experience to command a light aircraft it is also good enough to command a commercial jet.
Hence companies impose their own limits in the Ops Manual (which must, don't forget, be approved by the authorities, and can only be changed with the approval of same).
If you think you were good enough for a jet command at 1500hrs, you're either lying or mad.
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Market tester. Include on the internet booking form.
Captain 1500 hours: 2 years experience, 1 month as captain:new F/O Price X
Captain 5000hours: 10 years expeience, 2 years as captain: new F/O Price 3X
Weather expectation, marginal. Rwy short, no ILS.
To continue booking select............
Captain 1500 hours: 2 years experience, 1 month as captain:new F/O Price X
Captain 5000hours: 10 years expeience, 2 years as captain: new F/O Price 3X
Weather expectation, marginal. Rwy short, no ILS.
To continue booking select............
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I became a captain on a Dash 8 at age 25 after flying airline turboprops for 2200hours and GA airplanes for another couple of hundred. I am doubtless a better captain now after 10+ years on the left seat but I am convinced that I was a good captain even then.
I have flown with many 200hr copilots ever since and found that a lot more depends on training and proper selection than overall experience. I have flown with very few copilots with more than 3000hrs as ours usually get upgraded by then. Those I met were mostly very good though that doesn't mean those with fewer hours didn't cut the mustard.
More experience is good but I don't think that 10 years of experience can reasonably be mandated for captains.
I have flown with many 200hr copilots ever since and found that a lot more depends on training and proper selection than overall experience. I have flown with very few copilots with more than 3000hrs as ours usually get upgraded by then. Those I met were mostly very good though that doesn't mean those with fewer hours didn't cut the mustard.
More experience is good but I don't think that 10 years of experience can reasonably be mandated for captains.
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There are many factors that effect who should or should not fly as a captain. Age is one of them. However, I believe a severe selection process and then excellent training is right up there near the top also.
I was leading combat missions at age 23 as a lieutenant with captains and majors on my wing. I have also flown flight engineer and copilot at several different airlines before flying captain. The time flown with the older captains was invaluable. Simply watching how they handled things and what they did in a multitude of different instances was pure gold and could not be gotten out of a book.
I am now retired, but when still flying, as I got older I became more cautious. I became more cautious in certain situations not because of my age but because I had learned over time of the pitfalls and gotchas that waited for the more aggressive.
The actual flying of the aircraft has little to do with being a captain. Whether you are vfr or in the weather or one aircraft has a higher workload than the other. Who cares. It is just assumed that you can do it and do it well, except for the newest of pilots.
As far as the airlines are concerned, if there is somewhat a shortage of pilots then there will be young captains and quick upgrades. Nothing more than supply and demand. The seat will be filled. With experienced personnel or inexperienced, but the seat will be filled.
I was leading combat missions at age 23 as a lieutenant with captains and majors on my wing. I have also flown flight engineer and copilot at several different airlines before flying captain. The time flown with the older captains was invaluable. Simply watching how they handled things and what they did in a multitude of different instances was pure gold and could not be gotten out of a book.
I am now retired, but when still flying, as I got older I became more cautious. I became more cautious in certain situations not because of my age but because I had learned over time of the pitfalls and gotchas that waited for the more aggressive.
The actual flying of the aircraft has little to do with being a captain. Whether you are vfr or in the weather or one aircraft has a higher workload than the other. Who cares. It is just assumed that you can do it and do it well, except for the newest of pilots.
As far as the airlines are concerned, if there is somewhat a shortage of pilots then there will be young captains and quick upgrades. Nothing more than supply and demand. The seat will be filled. With experienced personnel or inexperienced, but the seat will be filled.
Last edited by JustAnothrWindScreen; 23rd Aug 2007 at 17:57.
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Visual Calls,
The law says 1500 hrr TT is enough for an ATP. Companies then decide what the minimum requirements are to upgrade. All I'm saying is that you don't have to be Ace McCool himself to be a captain on anything. And I think the guys on the smaller equipment have it more difficult than the guys on the fancy jets, jets go above most of the weather and the turbo props stay in the clouds and ice all day. As captain on the turbo prop I had to work harder than on the 737, much more difficult conditions and smaller margins.
To everyone out there, it's no big deal to become capatain on a jet at the age of 25! As long as you have plenty experience, that's all that really matters.
The law says 1500 hrr TT is enough for an ATP. Companies then decide what the minimum requirements are to upgrade. All I'm saying is that you don't have to be Ace McCool himself to be a captain on anything. And I think the guys on the smaller equipment have it more difficult than the guys on the fancy jets, jets go above most of the weather and the turbo props stay in the clouds and ice all day. As captain on the turbo prop I had to work harder than on the 737, much more difficult conditions and smaller margins.
To everyone out there, it's no big deal to become capatain on a jet at the age of 25! As long as you have plenty experience, that's all that really matters.
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25 year old Captain and 19 year old First Officer?thats funny...dont tell the poor passengers.
Sign of the times I suppose...the aircraft fly themselves.Pilot sits there and tries not to touch anything in case he screws it up(Airbus)..
Modern airline pilot=flies by rote,flowscans by acronyms,memorizes briefings so each one is the same,engages AP at 500'/disengages at 300',values SOP over airmanship,thinks 3000 hours is experienced
...you know the type,you can actually see their brain working 10min to TOD as they try and run through the approach set-up acronyms..all by rote and procedural memory..items actioned at specific points,signs off at 10000 on again at TOD and they'll squirm in their seat if you go outside this little set pattern..their idea of a visual is follow the magenta with VNAV..its all monkey see monkey do..7 years of that doesnt a Captain make.
What was this "kid" doing in the right seat of a jetliner at 18 to begin with?
Experience and age are inextricably linked..no two ways about that and please no comparisons to Guy Gibson..that was wartime and they were carrying bombs not passengers.
Sign of the times I suppose...the aircraft fly themselves.Pilot sits there and tries not to touch anything in case he screws it up(Airbus)..
Modern airline pilot=flies by rote,flowscans by acronyms,memorizes briefings so each one is the same,engages AP at 500'/disengages at 300',values SOP over airmanship,thinks 3000 hours is experienced
...you know the type,you can actually see their brain working 10min to TOD as they try and run through the approach set-up acronyms..all by rote and procedural memory..items actioned at specific points,signs off at 10000 on again at TOD and they'll squirm in their seat if you go outside this little set pattern..their idea of a visual is follow the magenta with VNAV..its all monkey see monkey do..7 years of that doesnt a Captain make.What was this "kid" doing in the right seat of a jetliner at 18 to begin with?
Experience and age are inextricably linked..no two ways about that and please no comparisons to Guy Gibson..that was wartime and they were carrying bombs not passengers.
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"Experience and age are inextricably linked..no two ways about that" -
I have to disagree, a 25 year old Capt who has been flying since the age of 18 is infinitely more experienced than a late start who has been flying for 1 year in the RHS having started at the age of 35. Passenger perception is that the 35 year old is the more experienced but the reality is it's hours and time flying the aircraft not age. Not only this but a pilot who started training at a younger age tends to be quicker to learn then a late start. I agree with what many other have said on this page - its not the age that counts but experience AND ability. Experience doesn't always = ability just as age doesn't always = experience. With my employer you can have all the experience in the world, and on paper be ready for command but it's the command selection that decides if you also have the ability. The disturbing factor is the lack of hours quoted as 1500hrs for a jet Capt where experience is just not in the equation.
I have to disagree, a 25 year old Capt who has been flying since the age of 18 is infinitely more experienced than a late start who has been flying for 1 year in the RHS having started at the age of 35. Passenger perception is that the 35 year old is the more experienced but the reality is it's hours and time flying the aircraft not age. Not only this but a pilot who started training at a younger age tends to be quicker to learn then a late start. I agree with what many other have said on this page - its not the age that counts but experience AND ability. Experience doesn't always = ability just as age doesn't always = experience. With my employer you can have all the experience in the world, and on paper be ready for command but it's the command selection that decides if you also have the ability. The disturbing factor is the lack of hours quoted as 1500hrs for a jet Capt where experience is just not in the equation.
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If you have an experience of 1500 hs no matter what your age is. If your age is 25 years old or 50, 1500 hs means yo have 1500 hs. Period.
You should upgrade if you are qualified and experienced enough.
You should upgrade if you are qualified and experienced enough.
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JustAnothrWindScreen: Of course. I never said you should upgrade at 1500 hs. I said that Hs are Hs no mater your age. If you haver 4000 hs at 25 is the same if you have them at 40.
Experience is measure in Hs, not in Age.
Experience is measure in Hs, not in Age.
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7Q, I basically agree with you. I do believe that age brings a more mature outlook on things and on how you deal with situations and people. I believe that dealing with people, ie the crew, passengers, and dispatch etc etc etc, improves with age. Maybe not for everyone but for most. Everyone is an individual and there are superb young captains and incompetent older captains.
In my opinion you need enough hours to know the job and to have matured. But hours to me have never meant experience. Where and how those hours were accumulated mean all the difference in the world. A military fighter pilot that flys 250 hours in a year vs a young commuter pilot that flys 1000 hours in the same year are not equal. It simply is not the same thing. Please, this is not to start a military/civilian slug fest.
In my opinion you need enough hours to know the job and to have matured. But hours to me have never meant experience. Where and how those hours were accumulated mean all the difference in the world. A military fighter pilot that flys 250 hours in a year vs a young commuter pilot that flys 1000 hours in the same year are not equal. It simply is not the same thing. Please, this is not to start a military/civilian slug fest.
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As i have already said in my first post i say again .. (for those who missed it)
Please do not take everything written in that report on its face value.
There are NO airlines upgrading pilots with 1500 hrs to command jets in INDIA. However prople are moving up quicker compared to the 10 yr in the right seat drill for a very long time.
The report is just misguided..However my opinion remains the same on the age not really being linked to experience bit.
Please do not take everything written in that report on its face value.
There are NO airlines upgrading pilots with 1500 hrs to command jets in INDIA. However prople are moving up quicker compared to the 10 yr in the right seat drill for a very long time.
The report is just misguided..However my opinion remains the same on the age not really being linked to experience bit.
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I know a chap that was a B737 TRI at 26 and TRE at 27. He is now 36 and in charge of Airbus Training at a large airline.
Age is not relevant. Experience, aptitude and attitude is!!!
Age is not relevant. Experience, aptitude and attitude is!!!
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just a food for thoughts - those who are applying war time heroes to commercial flying - one note - they had to fly max 50 sorties and then the war was over for most bomber crews. If they were not dead in the process. Flying A320 20 days per month twice each time in ever-chaning environment at 25...hmmm
When I was flying in the military, first lieutenent was aged 23-24 and he was already flying mig-21. But he was still under silent training from others. Here you have 25 years old cpt and 19 years young copilot... with all due respect, but commanding a commercial jet is not just about flying skills.
When I was flying in the military, first lieutenent was aged 23-24 and he was already flying mig-21. But he was still under silent training from others. Here you have 25 years old cpt and 19 years young copilot... with all due respect, but commanding a commercial jet is not just about flying skills.
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The role of airline Captain is more a state of mind than age. That state of mind comes with training and a readiness to accept the responsibility.
I've flown with much younger pilots and much older pilots, and some of the older should never have been promoted. It's not their ability, or lack of, but a readiness to confront a situation when it occurs, and that's in a person's makeup to a large degree. Technical knowledge is necessary and important but its the approach made by the individual that saves the day.
I recall reading in the accident report that the Captain on the JAL 747 that ploughed into a mountain 21 years ago just abrogated his responsibility completely (something the Japanese are wont to do when the $hit hits the fan), looking out the window when the FO and FE were desperate for some guidance.
Of course, technical knowledge and manipulative skill play a part.
I've flown with Japanese FO's and Captains, and Indian FO's, and I can assure you the worst Indian FO was better than the best Japanese Captain, and the Indian FO's were less than half the Japanese Captains' ages, some late teens/early 20's.
The Indian pilots with whom I've flown have all been very capable. Indians seems to apply themselves to the task, any task, very diligently. They strive to be best when many others rate 'good enough' as adequate.
Yes sir, it's training and attitude more than age, and I think 1500 hours in the RHS is enough provided the FO's been diligent about his tasks and is rated as suitable for upgrade.
You can have a 55 yo Captain with 20,000+ hours but it doesn't follow that he's better than a 25 yo with 5,000 hours even though he probably should be.
The Indian maintenance would be more cause for concern than the ages of the crew up front.
Airline pilots have ever made a big deal of instructors having 10 hours experience 1000 times over, and so it is with airline pilots, but perhaps 1,000 hours 10 times over.
You'll never experience it all even if you're 100 yo and have 50,000 hours experience because you're operating a machine in a dynamic environment.
I've flown with much younger pilots and much older pilots, and some of the older should never have been promoted. It's not their ability, or lack of, but a readiness to confront a situation when it occurs, and that's in a person's makeup to a large degree. Technical knowledge is necessary and important but its the approach made by the individual that saves the day.
I recall reading in the accident report that the Captain on the JAL 747 that ploughed into a mountain 21 years ago just abrogated his responsibility completely (something the Japanese are wont to do when the $hit hits the fan), looking out the window when the FO and FE were desperate for some guidance.
Of course, technical knowledge and manipulative skill play a part.
I've flown with Japanese FO's and Captains, and Indian FO's, and I can assure you the worst Indian FO was better than the best Japanese Captain, and the Indian FO's were less than half the Japanese Captains' ages, some late teens/early 20's.
The Indian pilots with whom I've flown have all been very capable. Indians seems to apply themselves to the task, any task, very diligently. They strive to be best when many others rate 'good enough' as adequate.
Yes sir, it's training and attitude more than age, and I think 1500 hours in the RHS is enough provided the FO's been diligent about his tasks and is rated as suitable for upgrade.
You can have a 55 yo Captain with 20,000+ hours but it doesn't follow that he's better than a 25 yo with 5,000 hours even though he probably should be.
The Indian maintenance would be more cause for concern than the ages of the crew up front.
Airline pilots have ever made a big deal of instructors having 10 hours experience 1000 times over, and so it is with airline pilots, but perhaps 1,000 hours 10 times over.
You'll never experience it all even if you're 100 yo and have 50,000 hours experience because you're operating a machine in a dynamic environment.
Last edited by KaptinZZ; 25th Aug 2007 at 07:07.
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Well during the other week the combined age on my flight deck was 46. I am 25 and my F/O was 21.
I am in my second airline job and I got my command after a year on line when I was 24 with my second airline and I had no previous command experience. That might perhaps raise an eyebrow (especially when I fly a steam driven jet which is nearly as old as I am!) but I have never felt out of my depth and I have had a few things thrown at me in my time in the left seat! I have found it fascinating looking at the personalities and the abilities of the F/Os that I now fly with.
The difference in flying ability between 1500hrs and 2000hrs will taper off significantly when compared to 500hrs and 1000hrs. The difference between 2500hrs and 2000hrs will taper off even more. In other words, if you can't fly the type you are trained on after 1500 hours then will another 1500 make a significant difference? Note the word significant - some change will of course be apparent.
What is key though are the personality and the attitude towards the job. I love flying with F/Os who are assertive and proactive and not reactive to the job! In my limited experience these are the main traits that I believe that make an effective commander. After all an effective commander is an effective manager! Tale tale signs of a 'switched on' F/O are for example having the paperwork (manual load sheets/voyage report) prepped before the first sector or perhaps having the VNAV profile in the FMS before the TOD instead of it being a after thought as is sometimes the case!!! In other words it is the difference between a F/O who gets the job done without prompting and the opposite. Experience to a small extent will make a difference but the personality and attitude are key aspects and these traits are established long before we climb into an aircraft for the first time.
I am in my second airline job and I got my command after a year on line when I was 24 with my second airline and I had no previous command experience. That might perhaps raise an eyebrow (especially when I fly a steam driven jet which is nearly as old as I am!) but I have never felt out of my depth and I have had a few things thrown at me in my time in the left seat! I have found it fascinating looking at the personalities and the abilities of the F/Os that I now fly with.
The difference in flying ability between 1500hrs and 2000hrs will taper off significantly when compared to 500hrs and 1000hrs. The difference between 2500hrs and 2000hrs will taper off even more. In other words, if you can't fly the type you are trained on after 1500 hours then will another 1500 make a significant difference? Note the word significant - some change will of course be apparent.
What is key though are the personality and the attitude towards the job. I love flying with F/Os who are assertive and proactive and not reactive to the job! In my limited experience these are the main traits that I believe that make an effective commander. After all an effective commander is an effective manager! Tale tale signs of a 'switched on' F/O are for example having the paperwork (manual load sheets/voyage report) prepped before the first sector or perhaps having the VNAV profile in the FMS before the TOD instead of it being a after thought as is sometimes the case!!! In other words it is the difference between a F/O who gets the job done without prompting and the opposite. Experience to a small extent will make a difference but the personality and attitude are key aspects and these traits are established long before we climb into an aircraft for the first time.