Great Captain
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For my part, if the Captain sees it fit to talk from the cabin then absolutely fine. I have never heard of passengers complaining when this happens but I quite often get negative feedback when I have hid behind my door doing PA's. Now, I assess every situation on it's merits.
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I have to agree with Mr Tis, half the time I can't hear what's being said over the PA from the flight deck anyway. It's marginally better if you're plugged in with headphones on flights that have this facility, but I think it's either a case that the feed from the cabin microphones is better set up, or the pilots tend to speak more softly (I know I do the same a lot of the time) than the cabin crew.
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Few Cloudy,
Thanks. We agree.
When SLF, I do appreciate seeing the captain showing his face during a delay or similar problem, if for no other reasons than:
- he's not at panic stations up front,
- he is civilised enough to realise he's got a hundred + guests at the back, while he's the m/c. So talking to them a moment face to face is simply being polite and competent (even if half your guests don't understand what you're saying, ... either because of language, or PA sound quality -over to CC then.).
Thanks. We agree.
When SLF, I do appreciate seeing the captain showing his face during a delay or similar problem, if for no other reasons than:
- he's not at panic stations up front,
- he is civilised enough to realise he's got a hundred + guests at the back, while he's the m/c. So talking to them a moment face to face is simply being polite and competent (even if half your guests don't understand what you're saying, ... either because of language, or PA sound quality -over to CC then.).
Rotate on this!
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"It is interesting to see how different obviously the perception of the job seems to be form the passengers side of view (nice to see him) and his colleagues (going to vomit, get a life, weird). Very revealing isn't it...?"
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"It is interesting to see how different obviously the perception of the job seems to be form the passengers side of view (nice to see him) and his colleagues (going to vomit, get a life, weird). Very revealing isn't it...?"
It is only a FEW of his colleagues who are making such posts here. The attitude of such people contributes to the decline in status of the professional pilot and it allows others who may have an axe to grind to portray us as mere drivers.
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As a Captain your in a leadership role and at certain times your crew and passengers look to you, how you choose to behave at that point is significant.
In my experience crew have always appreciated me taking the time to talk directly to the passengers. They already get a-lot of grief and do a remarkable job with great patience and humour most of the time so if I can help them out by coming out of my HQ and facing the passengers then I am happy to do so. Many crew look at a Captains refusal to do so as moral cowardice which in some cases it undoubtably is.
When I'm a passenger the single most frustrating thing about any delay/problem is not knowing what on earth is going on. When I do know its easier to deal with. Why is it that so many operators treat people like imbeciles and deny them info or tell half truths and then wonder why they are frustrated and angry. Treat people with respect and honesty and you will get that respect mirrored back. Yes you can provide this info effectively from the flight deck via PA, and on a wide body or split class cabin there is no other practical way, but on some occasions on narrowbodies the human touch is nice and in my experience is appreciated by most of the passengers.
Prior to joining the airlines I was a pax on an EZY to GVA that diverted due to fog. On the ground at the div the Capt took the time to explain what was happening and passed through the cabin chatting to people, he also got some of the kids old and young on the flightdeck. Did people think he was a good Captain ? No they thought he was a great Captain. Its the vote of the passengers that counts here, they pay their money to fly with us and by default pay my salary so if I can keep them happy and coming back then I'd be a fool not to do it.
As for some of the comments implying people who do this are somehow massaging a needy ego or looking for a shag. Well if you are professional pilots, in this respect at least, you are a disgrace to yourselves and your profession.
In my experience crew have always appreciated me taking the time to talk directly to the passengers. They already get a-lot of grief and do a remarkable job with great patience and humour most of the time so if I can help them out by coming out of my HQ and facing the passengers then I am happy to do so. Many crew look at a Captains refusal to do so as moral cowardice which in some cases it undoubtably is.
When I'm a passenger the single most frustrating thing about any delay/problem is not knowing what on earth is going on. When I do know its easier to deal with. Why is it that so many operators treat people like imbeciles and deny them info or tell half truths and then wonder why they are frustrated and angry. Treat people with respect and honesty and you will get that respect mirrored back. Yes you can provide this info effectively from the flight deck via PA, and on a wide body or split class cabin there is no other practical way, but on some occasions on narrowbodies the human touch is nice and in my experience is appreciated by most of the passengers.
Prior to joining the airlines I was a pax on an EZY to GVA that diverted due to fog. On the ground at the div the Capt took the time to explain what was happening and passed through the cabin chatting to people, he also got some of the kids old and young on the flightdeck. Did people think he was a good Captain ? No they thought he was a great Captain. Its the vote of the passengers that counts here, they pay their money to fly with us and by default pay my salary so if I can keep them happy and coming back then I'd be a fool not to do it.
As for some of the comments implying people who do this are somehow massaging a needy ego or looking for a shag. Well if you are professional pilots, in this respect at least, you are a disgrace to yourselves and your profession.
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Well said, Ashling. I didn't have time to elaborate on my previous post but what you've just popped on here would have been the gist of it.
In my time I've (a) used the cabin PA (b) wandered through the cabin to draw the flak (c) gone up to the departure lounge with the whole crew to speak to disgruntled, delayed passengers and (d) invited people to the flight deck (I still do on the ground). It is the right and proper thing to do for our customers when the occasion demands it.
What that BA captain did was not extraordinary. It should be the norm.
In my time I've (a) used the cabin PA (b) wandered through the cabin to draw the flak (c) gone up to the departure lounge with the whole crew to speak to disgruntled, delayed passengers and (d) invited people to the flight deck (I still do on the ground). It is the right and proper thing to do for our customers when the occasion demands it.
What that BA captain did was not extraordinary. It should be the norm.
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Off Stand
Sorry, hope you do not think I was having a pop at you, I think we may indeed have crossed. The point I was trying to make, any member of the Crew is equally qualified to address the travelling public with the truth. The Grey haired, 4 ring gentleman may have a calming influence, but his (or sorry, her) job is to manage the aircraft, the cabin belonging to the Cabin Crew, by deligation/default. If the numpty in 4C wants to hear it from the Captain, fine. (Touching wood honestly) Should it all go Pete Tong big style and you invite 4C to leave by the nearest slide, will he look to the FD for confirmation, or go with your shove.
The problem is the perception of the bums on seats, worsened by the airlines themself. I know you back end guys and girls are highly trained and tested pros who do know what is going on. As the airlines sell service, service and more service, your primary role of safety appears diluted with your additional tasks.
Keep up the good work, fore and aft of the door, as you all see fit. Works as I see it.
Never saw the Master leave the Bridge, my pax never thought he could, in port or under steam..........................................
The problem is the perception of the bums on seats, worsened by the airlines themself. I know you back end guys and girls are highly trained and tested pros who do know what is going on. As the airlines sell service, service and more service, your primary role of safety appears diluted with your additional tasks.
Keep up the good work, fore and aft of the door, as you all see fit. Works as I see it.
Never saw the Master leave the Bridge, my pax never thought he could, in port or under steam..........................................
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boredcounter
The Pilots are in charge of the flight deck and the Crew are in charge of the cabin????!!!
99% of the time our Cabin Managers / Crew do a stunning job and handle difficult situations all the time. However, the Captain is "in charge" of the whole aircraft. Lock, stock and barrell!
If Skippers do not have the tallent/balls to lead from the front, then head back to the RHS!
The Pilots are in charge of the flight deck and the Crew are in charge of the cabin????!!!
99% of the time our Cabin Managers / Crew do a stunning job and handle difficult situations all the time. However, the Captain is "in charge" of the whole aircraft. Lock, stock and barrell!
If Skippers do not have the tallent/balls to lead from the front, then head back to the RHS!
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If Skippers do not have the talent/balls to lead from the front, then head back to the RHS!
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Bit of thread creep here but I was flying from Osaka to LHR as SLF on Japanese Airlines and after pushback all the groung crew lined up in a regimented, military style line and waved in a syncronised way as the a/c taxied by, gave me a chuckle.
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I rest my case!
seem's all the guy's who do theese front of the cabin pa's are now becoming desperate to tell us just how good their leadership and people skills are, how very interesting.
just for the record i have wandered round the cabin speaking to the punters after the few 'incidents' i've had. i've even been up to the gate to quell a riot during the gate gourmet fiasco (without my hat or jacket i may add,
) and i've even went and re-assured a very nervous pax after an eng surge on t/o. amazing crm or leadership? don't think so just a bit of common sense and in all cases actions prompted by the problems being faced by other members of my team who accepted the offer of help. we all know that every situation has various solutions. my point is, and i think flaps and a few others agree, that there are some who at any given chance will leap to the front galley, hat medals and gloves on and act like total tools whilst convinced they are showing the rest of us how it should be done! like i've said already it's all the guys/girls who tell me how good their crm is that tend to be the hardest work and the least effective. b4 you know it you'll be doing pa's in the ga instead of the gear!
this kenneth branagh thing is impossible on my jet, would look at bit silly doing it on the upper deck stairs! i would think 95% of long haul csd's would consider it a major crm failing if the pilots started engaging the pax in the cabins with face to face pa's unless they had requested the help. are we suggesting that our people skills are so wondeful that the cc require our intervention to keep the pax calm?
isn't the point of the comunication element of crm traning to ensure that information can be passed thru the crew structure effectivley enough to allow all members of the crew to perform at an optimum? in suggesting that the capt should be making some of his pa's from the cabin are we suggesting that our cc colleagues are incapable of dealing with our customers needs without our direct physical intervention? if they request it then in a short haul enviroment i would almost always comply with a request to aid the cc if they felt they required it. isn't any other intervention a display of poor crm and dare i say it narcacism? i always thought that leadership was about giving those under our care the backing, support and encouragement to do their job better whilst letting them get on with the task that they had been given, in this case dealing with the pax!
an old sqn ldr once said to me as i was running to a has, "don't run son, it worries the troops'. having seen a fear of flying course at first hand i seem to remeber that one of the triggers for nervous flyers is anything out of the their percieved ordinary. i would suggest that the capt in the front galley with a mic is probably not what they were expecting! your great idea to calm them may be the thing that puts them over the edge, ever thought of that?
or maybee it's a little jet thing?
Last edited by the heavy heavy; 18th Jul 2007 at 00:15. Reason: to add some more spelling errors and poor gramar
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Well, it's an interesting thread. Being another old fart, I'm in agreement with JW411 (Post 36). Sadly, in my view, things are very different now.
All the variations of the two ways of looking at it - face the music or hide - seem to have been covered. But I would make one (irrelevant) point. Of all the countless trips made, only one is outstanding in my memory - well, there is another one but that involved Big Airways in the days when they served that godawful Arc de Triomphe so-called wine and is not printable here - and that was when I was dead heading back to Dusseldorf.
We were down to altitude when the "shortly landing in Dusseldorf" bit came over the Tannoy. "Our associate hotels are the blah, blah, blah" and then she came to the tricky bit. " . . . holding a wine festival featuring the local Ingenheimer Kloster Liebfraunenbeg halb brocken, no trocken, splutter, splutter, giggle . . " bang, click. She then tried again but, due to a fit of the giggles, did even less well than the first time. Much mirth and merriment among PAX.
A little while later, click "Captain speaking. Cabin staff; doors to manual please - if you can find them . . ". Even more mirth and merriment among SLF and you can't have too much of either when a passenger in that horrid one-eleven.
I remember this because it was a simple display of humanity absent from all the other flights now long forgotten.
PS How nice of all you Ppruners to remember my birthday! Ta ever so.
All the variations of the two ways of looking at it - face the music or hide - seem to have been covered. But I would make one (irrelevant) point. Of all the countless trips made, only one is outstanding in my memory - well, there is another one but that involved Big Airways in the days when they served that godawful Arc de Triomphe so-called wine and is not printable here - and that was when I was dead heading back to Dusseldorf.
We were down to altitude when the "shortly landing in Dusseldorf" bit came over the Tannoy. "Our associate hotels are the blah, blah, blah" and then she came to the tricky bit. " . . . holding a wine festival featuring the local Ingenheimer Kloster Liebfraunenbeg halb brocken, no trocken, splutter, splutter, giggle . . " bang, click. She then tried again but, due to a fit of the giggles, did even less well than the first time. Much mirth and merriment among PAX.
A little while later, click "Captain speaking. Cabin staff; doors to manual please - if you can find them . . ". Even more mirth and merriment among SLF and you can't have too much of either when a passenger in that horrid one-eleven.
I remember this because it was a simple display of humanity absent from all the other flights now long forgotten.
PS How nice of all you Ppruners to remember my birthday! Ta ever so.
Last edited by Gipsy Queen; 18th Jul 2007 at 03:55. Reason: Forgot something
ex-Tanker
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Smith in Osaka - Ground crew waving
Actually Smith, this is done at all Japanese airports for all passenger flights and is a very nice tradition (though I am sure there are those here who will find it pointless showmanship...) as compared to the sight of your tugman / chockman scratching his backside and chewing gum.
Back to PA. - you have a captive audience there and it is quite possible to overdo it. You have people going to weddings, going to funerals, visiting friends and going to/coming from difficult business sessions.
Just because you are in a good mood, doesn't mean it will be universally infectious, so the humour which amuses some passengers will annoy others. The passengers have to listen to a lot of standard stuff (often in several languages) and all they want is some honest info from the horses mouth.
Best way is an honest, matter of fact human style. Try to imagine one passenger back there (easier of course if you are looking... and it's true that only works on a smaller ship) and talk to him. That way you stand the best chance to get the point across.
Don't underestimate the value of good cockpit PA though - and ask for reports from the CC on the sound quality.
FC.
Back to PA. - you have a captive audience there and it is quite possible to overdo it. You have people going to weddings, going to funerals, visiting friends and going to/coming from difficult business sessions.
Just because you are in a good mood, doesn't mean it will be universally infectious, so the humour which amuses some passengers will annoy others. The passengers have to listen to a lot of standard stuff (often in several languages) and all they want is some honest info from the horses mouth.
Best way is an honest, matter of fact human style. Try to imagine one passenger back there (easier of course if you are looking... and it's true that only works on a smaller ship) and talk to him. That way you stand the best chance to get the point across.
Don't underestimate the value of good cockpit PA though - and ask for reports from the CC on the sound quality.
FC.
SLFguy,
Don't assume that all those claiming to be major airline captains here are genuine.
As I'm sure you are already aware they could be anything from a kid to the pilot in command of an air taxi.
Which brings me to another point. The captain is not 'in charge' of the flight deck. As pilot in command the captain is in COMMAND of the aircraft and the authority of the cabin chief to be in CHARGE derives from the captain's authority as stated in the Air Navigation Order.
The captain's right to conduct the flight as wished within the law is absolute and, thankfully, nothing published in this or any other forum will alter that.
boredcounter,
Really? You astonish me but I must bow to your experience as a steamship officer.
Don't assume that all those claiming to be major airline captains here are genuine.
As I'm sure you are already aware they could be anything from a kid to the pilot in command of an air taxi.
Which brings me to another point. The captain is not 'in charge' of the flight deck. As pilot in command the captain is in COMMAND of the aircraft and the authority of the cabin chief to be in CHARGE derives from the captain's authority as stated in the Air Navigation Order.
The captain's right to conduct the flight as wished within the law is absolute and, thankfully, nothing published in this or any other forum will alter that.
boredcounter,
Never saw the Master leave the Bridge, my pax never thought he could, in port or under steam
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Having been a frequent member of the SLF contingent over the last 35 years I'm pretty astonished by the attitude of the mob who consider it beneath themselves to make an appearance under specific circumstances to calm/placate us. If there was some crisis occurring in your company, who would you rather explained it to you? Your chairman or a "spokesman". Would you look up to him for having an attitude that his job is to run the company & he feels no need to involve himself with the minions beneath him & the customers?
A Captain making a personal effort to explain an unpleasant situation has 2 effects. Firstly, he carries far more credibility as cc are obviously not perceived as having anything like his technical abilities & so his announcements carry far, far more weight. Who would you rather explain to you why your car isn't working - the mechanic or the receptionist? A tinny voice over the pa is something we're very used to whereas a physical appearance hugely improves the impact of what he is saying. Secondly, surely it has to take a lot of weight off the shoulders of the crew? Under these circumstances I've seen them being pestered incessantly with (sometimes incredibly stupid) questions from passengers who, I can assure you, generally shut up when they are told what's what by the man in charge. I reckon that 99.9% of the time, we don't know who senior cabin crew members are.
I think this is all about a perception of what your job is. I think the majority of passengers do not just see you as just a driver. You are seen as being in charge of the whole aircraft - passengers & crew. I have a couple of friends who are Captains & they both see their job as not just flying the aircraft but managing it too, with all the responsibilities it entails.
Personally, I reckon those of you who are prepared to make an appearance are doing their jobs correctly & showing some initiative - you are greatly appreciated by the majority of us. Perhaps there is an element of cowardice to those who won't show their face - let the cabin crew take the sh*t?.
However, I can do without the ones who feel the need to pass on life stories, Tommy Cooper impersonations etc etc
A Captain making a personal effort to explain an unpleasant situation has 2 effects. Firstly, he carries far more credibility as cc are obviously not perceived as having anything like his technical abilities & so his announcements carry far, far more weight. Who would you rather explain to you why your car isn't working - the mechanic or the receptionist? A tinny voice over the pa is something we're very used to whereas a physical appearance hugely improves the impact of what he is saying. Secondly, surely it has to take a lot of weight off the shoulders of the crew? Under these circumstances I've seen them being pestered incessantly with (sometimes incredibly stupid) questions from passengers who, I can assure you, generally shut up when they are told what's what by the man in charge. I reckon that 99.9% of the time, we don't know who senior cabin crew members are.
I think this is all about a perception of what your job is. I think the majority of passengers do not just see you as just a driver. You are seen as being in charge of the whole aircraft - passengers & crew. I have a couple of friends who are Captains & they both see their job as not just flying the aircraft but managing it too, with all the responsibilities it entails.
Personally, I reckon those of you who are prepared to make an appearance are doing their jobs correctly & showing some initiative - you are greatly appreciated by the majority of us. Perhaps there is an element of cowardice to those who won't show their face - let the cabin crew take the sh*t?.
However, I can do without the ones who feel the need to pass on life stories, Tommy Cooper impersonations etc etc
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At my airline the Captain is almost required to welcome all pax and say goodby at the end of the flight. And I must say it is very nice to still hqave some contact with my pax. Before 9-11 we always flew with the cockpit door open and I really miss the moments of interaction with the SLF. Glad to see that more crews go for the personal touch
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I have found in certain circumstances making a personal appearance, workload notwithstanding at shut-down, or during delays can help placate those who after all help pay our stipend every 2 or 4 weeks...I wouldn't do it personally as a matter of course, and it would very much depend on the precise situation, but it can be a nice touch, provided it doesn't turn into a song and dance act with crass humour.
Secondly, this thread was started by someone who appreciated the effort of the skipper on the service in question - and I don't think the toxic responses of those jaded with their lot are that helpful to be honest. Given the public at large use this site as a reference tome in some instances, how do you think some of the more negative responses are construed by those out in the wide world ?
Secondly, this thread was started by someone who appreciated the effort of the skipper on the service in question - and I don't think the toxic responses of those jaded with their lot are that helpful to be honest. Given the public at large use this site as a reference tome in some instances, how do you think some of the more negative responses are construed by those out in the wide world ?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Clearly "Business Acumen" has not been instated for the ATPL yet if some of these posts are an indicator. Since pilots became the plaything of accountants, it makes sense to understand and play by those rules, one of which is being able to extrapolate the connection between cheerful smiley faces, full load factors, and improved pay and conditions for the crew. If you can understand fluid dynamics, a simple linear relationship should be relatively easy.
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Some do and some dont. Agreed on delays longer than an hour that you know are going to be longer than an hour there is no excuse not to go out and tell the passengers.
Personally in all the situations that i have gone out and faced the pax on the PA it has brought them "on board" with the problem rather than just screaming at the cabin crew. Answering all questions from them face to face totally disarms them they then have not a lot to complain about, if they dont like the answer they can find their bags and "off load".
It says professional on my licence and part of the modern day skill set of a professional is passenger management as well as aircraft and crew management, how we all choose to do that is up to us. Whether we sit behind the flight deck door and tell "porky pies" and the usual "it will all be ready in half an hour" and then again in half an hour "it will just be another half an hour" is surely going to inflame a situation.
When we go and see our Dr (yet another professional ) we expect to be able to ask questions directly to his/her face and we dont appreciate being fobbed off with half truths. Well the travelling public are knowledtgable nowadays so the truth delivered face to face on a long delay i have found goes a long way to raising a few smiles and showing consideration that we as a company understand the inconvenience being caused. Makes them want to come back which keeps me in a job, which means my mortgage gets paid .. which keeps my Mrs from bending my ear. So actually its a selfish act from the flight deck for an easy life at home..
Personally in all the situations that i have gone out and faced the pax on the PA it has brought them "on board" with the problem rather than just screaming at the cabin crew. Answering all questions from them face to face totally disarms them they then have not a lot to complain about, if they dont like the answer they can find their bags and "off load".
It says professional on my licence and part of the modern day skill set of a professional is passenger management as well as aircraft and crew management, how we all choose to do that is up to us. Whether we sit behind the flight deck door and tell "porky pies" and the usual "it will all be ready in half an hour" and then again in half an hour "it will just be another half an hour" is surely going to inflame a situation.
When we go and see our Dr (yet another professional ) we expect to be able to ask questions directly to his/her face and we dont appreciate being fobbed off with half truths. Well the travelling public are knowledtgable nowadays so the truth delivered face to face on a long delay i have found goes a long way to raising a few smiles and showing consideration that we as a company understand the inconvenience being caused. Makes them want to come back which keeps me in a job, which means my mortgage gets paid .. which keeps my Mrs from bending my ear. So actually its a selfish act from the flight deck for an easy life at home..