Frustrated (?) pilots and security screening
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Rainboe, I'm pretty much agreeing with you that if you decide to down the plane, you'll find a way.
But I think you've rather missed the point that even while you have nothing else in mind than piloting a nice safe flight, goods smuggled by others onto your person or into your luggage could be dangerous. After all, the one sure thing about a commercial pilot is that he or she will be flying a commercial aircraft soon, so doesn't that make you a target?
I know all of this is very remote, but until a few years ago so were terrorists taking over planes armed with little more than razor blades...
But I think you've rather missed the point that even while you have nothing else in mind than piloting a nice safe flight, goods smuggled by others onto your person or into your luggage could be dangerous. After all, the one sure thing about a commercial pilot is that he or she will be flying a commercial aircraft soon, so doesn't that make you a target?
I know all of this is very remote, but until a few years ago so were terrorists taking over planes armed with little more than razor blades...
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The worst offenders amongst security staff at airports have almost certainly never, ever, been taught how to exercise their authority so they ape what they see on the worst of television and cinema.
Plenty of organisation, including the armed and police forces, go to some lengths to teach the proper way to exercise authority without being a complete arse, not every one passes and I suspect the bad mannered security staff at airports would fall into the 'failed' category.
The bad personalities should have been weeded out, so we are back to inadequate training.
To the OP, an old service adage was, "Obey the order first and complain afterwards" - the logic being that if the order is legal then to refuse to obey simply puts you in a very indefensible position and by carrying out the order you not only have complied with a legal instruction but also have time to think it through and see if a complaint is really worth it.
Plenty of organisation, including the armed and police forces, go to some lengths to teach the proper way to exercise authority without being a complete arse, not every one passes and I suspect the bad mannered security staff at airports would fall into the 'failed' category.
The bad personalities should have been weeded out, so we are back to inadequate training.
To the OP, an old service adage was, "Obey the order first and complain afterwards" - the logic being that if the order is legal then to refuse to obey simply puts you in a very indefensible position and by carrying out the order you not only have complied with a legal instruction but also have time to think it through and see if a complaint is really worth it.
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Just for giggles.. the FO and I, along with the cabin crew, took our shoes and socks off and put them in our luggage, prior to security.
The bags went through and were duly screened whilst we patiently waited for the barking screener.."Shoes!". We all dumbly plodded through whilst the screener's face got redder as he screamed even louder. "Stop! Shoes!".
I explained that none of us were wearing any "Sorry".
He replied "Was I trying to be funny?"
I replied "No...but, here's the really funny part. I get paid almost a quarter of a million dollars a year to do my job, whilst you spend your working hours checking bags and yelling "Shoes". So..actually its you that I find really funny!"
And off we went...to the sound of much gnashing of teeth and laughing and tittering from the passengers and TSA around us.
Sometime you just have to be a ****-head. Sorry.
The bags went through and were duly screened whilst we patiently waited for the barking screener.."Shoes!". We all dumbly plodded through whilst the screener's face got redder as he screamed even louder. "Stop! Shoes!".
I explained that none of us were wearing any "Sorry".
He replied "Was I trying to be funny?"
I replied "No...but, here's the really funny part. I get paid almost a quarter of a million dollars a year to do my job, whilst you spend your working hours checking bags and yelling "Shoes". So..actually its you that I find really funny!"
And off we went...to the sound of much gnashing of teeth and laughing and tittering from the passengers and TSA around us.
Sometime you just have to be a ****-head. Sorry.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Secure? Nope!
You gotta laugh - all the way to the cockpit.
Here come a bunch wearing uniforms - all of them sporting massive ID cards that don't get checked. Nope -much easier and lots more satisfaction for the moron who gets great pleasure in yelling at the commander and his crew to "TAKE OFF YER SHOES!" "I'LL TAKE THOSE NAIL CLIPPERS!"
And they ARE morons.
They are also named Abdul, or Mohamed, or Nabil, or Osama, and that's only at LHR or MEL.
AND if any of you really want to fly into a building and knock off a couple of hundred bums behind - pun intended - taking of your shoes isn't going to stop it.
Maybe one day pilots will have the balls our pilot ancestors had, and stand up for the profession - but not in my lifetime by the look of it.
Here come a bunch wearing uniforms - all of them sporting massive ID cards that don't get checked. Nope -much easier and lots more satisfaction for the moron who gets great pleasure in yelling at the commander and his crew to "TAKE OFF YER SHOES!" "I'LL TAKE THOSE NAIL CLIPPERS!"
And they ARE morons.
They are also named Abdul, or Mohamed, or Nabil, or Osama, and that's only at LHR or MEL.
AND if any of you really want to fly into a building and knock off a couple of hundred bums behind - pun intended - taking of your shoes isn't going to stop it.
Maybe one day pilots will have the balls our pilot ancestors had, and stand up for the profession - but not in my lifetime by the look of it.
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Crew being hassled and asked to remove their shoes, and taking their Johnson&Johnson shampoo away just leaves them...... without shampoo.
Most have probably seen this but it for the most part portrays airport security or at least the TSA spot on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PmqsYvWi0U
Most have probably seen this but it for the most part portrays airport security or at least the TSA spot on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PmqsYvWi0U
Next time I will insist on it being done in private. Perhaps if we all insisted such nonsense takes place in private, and aviation gets snarled up, there might be a rethink!
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Seen the same things many times, JFK is the worst regarding TSA for operating crews.
One has to remember though, before 911 most of these TSA types only knew how to say " Would you like cheese on your whopper"
Then again in MIA or many other places they are half way decent.
One day TSA will learn that you don't bite the hand that feeds you and you will catch more flies with honey..
One solution to the problem may be to have a different screening area for the crew, with the G/D sent in advance and a TSA individual trained in dealing with the crew.
But the most important thing to be changed is their attitudes towards us.
This would solve most of the problems.
Most of us are willing to comply, but with screaming and shouting is totally un called for and should be reported.
One has to remember though, before 911 most of these TSA types only knew how to say " Would you like cheese on your whopper"
Then again in MIA or many other places they are half way decent.
One day TSA will learn that you don't bite the hand that feeds you and you will catch more flies with honey..
One solution to the problem may be to have a different screening area for the crew, with the G/D sent in advance and a TSA individual trained in dealing with the crew.
But the most important thing to be changed is their attitudes towards us.
This would solve most of the problems.
Most of us are willing to comply, but with screaming and shouting is totally un called for and should be reported.
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My favourite (should that be 'favorite'?) moment with JFK TSA was when 'da man' tried to get me to remove my laptop's dust cover before I put it into the tray, as 'laptops had to go through separately'. My incredulous comment "It's a dust cover!" finally got through and he begrudgingy allowed it through.
However, the same guy took my glasses, which I had put beside the laptop in the same tray, into a separate tray, 'because laptops...' you know the rest.
I dislike the rigmarole of taking off my shoes as much as the next guy, but if you want my top pet hate, it's ***ing Brisbane, Australia - not the security screeners, but the 'all men are equal' bull***t they insist on where the incoming crew must line up with the passengers to go through the (much delayed) Customs screening.
I can almost hear the non crew readers of this site scrabbling for their 'reply' buttons to tell me I'm not special, but the pax have been sitting in a seat or sleeping for the last 8+ hours, the crew, especially the cabin crew, have been working and walking the whole time. It's a petty and stupid procedure. Almost every other port in the world, including most other ports in Australia, recognise that crew after a long flight need to get to bed without undue delays and provide a crew only lane, but not *** Brisbane.
However, the same guy took my glasses, which I had put beside the laptop in the same tray, into a separate tray, 'because laptops...' you know the rest.
I dislike the rigmarole of taking off my shoes as much as the next guy, but if you want my top pet hate, it's ***ing Brisbane, Australia - not the security screeners, but the 'all men are equal' bull***t they insist on where the incoming crew must line up with the passengers to go through the (much delayed) Customs screening.
I can almost hear the non crew readers of this site scrabbling for their 'reply' buttons to tell me I'm not special, but the pax have been sitting in a seat or sleeping for the last 8+ hours, the crew, especially the cabin crew, have been working and walking the whole time. It's a petty and stupid procedure. Almost every other port in the world, including most other ports in Australia, recognise that crew after a long flight need to get to bed without undue delays and provide a crew only lane, but not *** Brisbane.
Clarence Oveur:
In the US, look at the surprise when we sometimes remind TSA staff that we have a crash ax in the c0ckpit.
And thank them for something by saying "shokran", then ask them what language it is. Then tell them that it is Arabic. They then go quite blank as you stroll down the concourse.
In the US, look at the surprise when we sometimes remind TSA staff that we have a crash ax in the c0ckpit.
And thank them for something by saying "shokran", then ask them what language it is. Then tell them that it is Arabic. They then go quite blank as you stroll down the concourse.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Brisbane may be bad but the Port of New York Authority at JFK used to have a notice up at the crew channel that said no member of crew would be cleared until the last pax of their aircraft had been cleared. Experienced it a couple of times before our company sorted it out and shortly after that we moved terminals anyway.
Last edited by parabellum; 19th Oct 2007 at 08:06.
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To all of you sitting there dreaming up possible scenarios of how a pilot can be used or forced to bring dangerous items into an airport.
When I first began working as a pilot we had an id-card which we used to open doors to restricted areas. If someone was forcing us to open the door for him, we were supposed to let them in but add 1 to our pin code (i.e. 4647 instead of 4646), that would sound an alarm in the security "office" so that they could take action. Every such door was and is watched by a camera.
Now this procedure can be used today also. If a pilot has been made to bring something dangerous into an airport, he can discretely sound the alarm when he enters the dedicated crew screening point and then be selected for a random screening.
A terrorist would not use a pilot to bring something inside the restricted area that he himself can buy or steal in shops or restaurants on the inside.
A terrorist would not use a pilot to bring a liquid bomb inside the restricted area for him, when he and some fellow terrorists can each bring 100 ml inside and make a bomb once they are through security.
What we need is separate crew screening points where the security personnel thouroughly checks that I really am me and that I have a valid id-card. (Retina scan with the data stored at the airports?!)
Then they screen my bags and myself (X-ray, metal and scent detector) for guns and bombs only, not nail clippers, pocket knives etc that you can buy or get your hands on in shops or restaurants inside the restricted area or indeed onboard the aircraft, even inside the cockpit. (Just take a normal size wine bottle from the flight attendant, use it to hit with or smash it and you have a deadly weapon.)
Itīs no need to check for liquids either, because I can bring my legal 100 ml inside every day I go to work and make whatever size liquid bomb I like, by hiding it in the crew room or other suitable spot inside the restricted area.
This way you would know that the pilot really is the pilot and you would prevent terrorists from forcing a pilot to bring a gun or bomb inside the restricted area. You would also find any bombs hidden in the pilots bags.
That is a good and solid solution that all pilots can live with. It also provides real security instead of the show for the public that is used today.
This procedure should also be used for airport police and others that are not screened today, because they can also be used by terrorists.
If a pilot is a "sleeper", airport security will not stop him. He can take out the other pilot with the fire axe or a broken bottle and then crash the aircraft wherever he likes. "Sleepers" will have to be found by the security branches using completely different methods.
When I first began working as a pilot we had an id-card which we used to open doors to restricted areas. If someone was forcing us to open the door for him, we were supposed to let them in but add 1 to our pin code (i.e. 4647 instead of 4646), that would sound an alarm in the security "office" so that they could take action. Every such door was and is watched by a camera.
Now this procedure can be used today also. If a pilot has been made to bring something dangerous into an airport, he can discretely sound the alarm when he enters the dedicated crew screening point and then be selected for a random screening.
A terrorist would not use a pilot to bring something inside the restricted area that he himself can buy or steal in shops or restaurants on the inside.
A terrorist would not use a pilot to bring a liquid bomb inside the restricted area for him, when he and some fellow terrorists can each bring 100 ml inside and make a bomb once they are through security.
What we need is separate crew screening points where the security personnel thouroughly checks that I really am me and that I have a valid id-card. (Retina scan with the data stored at the airports?!)
Then they screen my bags and myself (X-ray, metal and scent detector) for guns and bombs only, not nail clippers, pocket knives etc that you can buy or get your hands on in shops or restaurants inside the restricted area or indeed onboard the aircraft, even inside the cockpit. (Just take a normal size wine bottle from the flight attendant, use it to hit with or smash it and you have a deadly weapon.)
Itīs no need to check for liquids either, because I can bring my legal 100 ml inside every day I go to work and make whatever size liquid bomb I like, by hiding it in the crew room or other suitable spot inside the restricted area.
This way you would know that the pilot really is the pilot and you would prevent terrorists from forcing a pilot to bring a gun or bomb inside the restricted area. You would also find any bombs hidden in the pilots bags.
That is a good and solid solution that all pilots can live with. It also provides real security instead of the show for the public that is used today.
This procedure should also be used for airport police and others that are not screened today, because they can also be used by terrorists.
If a pilot is a "sleeper", airport security will not stop him. He can take out the other pilot with the fire axe or a broken bottle and then crash the aircraft wherever he likes. "Sleepers" will have to be found by the security branches using completely different methods.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
To create a norm where any identifiable group are exempt from security search is asking for trouble. Having said that it would be nice to see more security staff showing some common sense and discretion.
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I am sure many lives were saved by the banana that was removed from a member of our crew by security because 'it could be mashed up into a liquid'.
Or by the confiscation of a 125 gram tube of toothpaste. Despite a brief foray into the world of primary school science security could not understand that 125g of a dense substance was less than 100ml
Ropey Pilot. Do you or your crew keep these things in your shoes?
Or by the confiscation of a 125 gram tube of toothpaste. Despite a brief foray into the world of primary school science security could not understand that 125g of a dense substance was less than 100ml
Ropey Pilot. Do you or your crew keep these things in your shoes?
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So from reading these threads I think I have come to the conclusion that SOME pilots are on power trips and think they should be treated differently to everyone else. Just because you get paid alot doesn't mean you are more important. The most important people? Have to be doctors and surgeons who save lives daily. Stop your wingeing and just take your shoes off. 
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Kate140983
couldn't agree with you more, so they have to take there shoes off.... SO WHAT!!! same rules for everyone is the only fair way of doing it...
can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has
couldn't agree with you more, so they have to take there shoes off.... SO WHAT!!! same rules for everyone is the only fair way of doing it...
can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has
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Secondly - much as I respect the pilot community, shoeless or not, surely Egyptair 990 teaches us that no-one, even a pilot with airline security clearance, is completely above suspicion?
Buttonpusher
couldn't agree with you more, so they have to take there shoes off.... SO WHAT!!! same rules for everyone is the only fair way of doing it...
can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has
can't believe this thread has lasted as long as it has
BTW removing your shoes as a working flight crewmember is not a requirement, the TSA may "encourage" you to remove your clogs, but you don't have to. (At least that's what my airline has told me)
The most important people? Have to be doctors and surgeons who save lives daily.