BBC Tiredness Study
Probably not.
The beancounters won't have it because it would have to be done within the crew duty day. If the crew are doing multiple sectors or come on duty at a disadvantageous time of day their duty period will already be reduced because of that. I can't see the average airline bean counter paying for extra crews to work so some can do these tests.
Can't see the crews going for it either because it will be just one more thing for them to do in an already packed day and another distraction for them in the sectors before with possible flight safety implications. (we have all read reports of crew being distracted because of non task related problems causing accidents or near misses.
The beancounters won't have it because it would have to be done within the crew duty day. If the crew are doing multiple sectors or come on duty at a disadvantageous time of day their duty period will already be reduced because of that. I can't see the average airline bean counter paying for extra crews to work so some can do these tests.
Can't see the crews going for it either because it will be just one more thing for them to do in an already packed day and another distraction for them in the sectors before with possible flight safety implications. (we have all read reports of crew being distracted because of non task related problems causing accidents or near misses.
Thread Starter
As I said, I do appreciate that airlines would not cooperate, but couldn't the tests could be done immediately before going on duty and immediately after signing off? If necessary they could be done in a public area of the airport. That way there should be no distraction from duty.
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Quite the opposite in fact several airlines are taking part inthis sort of study,the orange brigade have been doing in for the last 3 years I was involved for a while. This research was responsible for the change of roster from 5/2/5/4 to5/3/5/4! Airlines are aware of the fatigue issues and are working to find solutions which are economically viable,there in lies the challenge!!
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Just another suggestion.
If you are feeling fatigued or likely to be fatigued on a flight, email or fax your crewing department with a copy to the Chief Pilot informing them that in your view you are fatigued or likely to be so.
You are quite prepared to operate the flight if ordered to do so but will not report for the flight unless instructed but it would be contrary to section ???? of the company ops manual.
Follow this up after the next day with a notification of sickness with the reason for sickness as fatigued.
Keep a copy of the email or fax and if you get any comeback forward it to the CAA FOI.
If you are feeling fatigued or likely to be fatigued on a flight, email or fax your crewing department with a copy to the Chief Pilot informing them that in your view you are fatigued or likely to be so.
You are quite prepared to operate the flight if ordered to do so but will not report for the flight unless instructed but it would be contrary to section ???? of the company ops manual.
Follow this up after the next day with a notification of sickness with the reason for sickness as fatigued.
Keep a copy of the email or fax and if you get any comeback forward it to the CAA FOI.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
a few shorthaul pilots to be given tests for alertness / reaction time / other symptoms
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The problem with the F word is that you have to mix the S word with it and S is for social. If you look at Monarch for example the beef there is 18-30 hours rest periods. So they have a social agreement to operate 2 nights only. This and CAP371 forces the Airline to roster 18-30hr rest periods before / after the 2 nights. Simple answer is 3 or even 4 nights with a hard rule for night 1 being short. Fatigue tests undertaken by UK carrier confirm the rationale
Which answer wins, the S word.
Which answer wins, the S word.
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Buck stops with the Pilot, your trying to get the Company to take the wrap.
On one hand you may call it fatigue, on the other hand you could call it hard work
On one hand you may call it fatigue, on the other hand you could call it hard work
edited for spelling
Last edited by sky9; 28th Jun 2007 at 10:04.
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In regards to my previous post on pilot fatigue and Mr Angrys description of Monarchs Social policy, yesterday I received a 25 hour rest on my roster for next week. When I questioned crewing and fleet office that this was against recommeded policy I was promptly told " We will look into that".
Two hours later my roster was changed to comply with CAA fatigue recommendation: I got a one hour contactable in the middle of the rest period. Thus one period of 12 hours rest, one hour of contactable followed by 12 hours rest again. Fully in line with CAA fatigue recommendation, but no change anyway. Still 25 hours rest period, but on paper it looks sooooo good.
This is the type of practice that CAA should look at and create a "must" in stead of "should" policy. But are the commercial pressures to strong to do this?? Profit first, then on-time performance (Oh and if it does not interfere with other interest, lets throw in some nice statement about safety too)
Will try to survive another summer season again
Two hours later my roster was changed to comply with CAA fatigue recommendation: I got a one hour contactable in the middle of the rest period. Thus one period of 12 hours rest, one hour of contactable followed by 12 hours rest again. Fully in line with CAA fatigue recommendation, but no change anyway. Still 25 hours rest period, but on paper it looks sooooo good.
This is the type of practice that CAA should look at and create a "must" in stead of "should" policy. But are the commercial pressures to strong to do this?? Profit first, then on-time performance (Oh and if it does not interfere with other interest, lets throw in some nice statement about safety too)
Will try to survive another summer season again
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Blue Viking yeah not in the spirit of CAP371 but ...
Here's another example for you;
Operators to USA. Day time out, 24 hours @ destination (can't be helped really due daily schedule) overnight back to UK. Followed by days off for recovery.
Or the S word, no we want to do "back to backs" and have more time off afterwards. 3 x 18-30 rest periods and time zone shifts.
Who wins? The S word. When the S word rules fatigue mysteriously dissappears
Here's another example for you;
Operators to USA. Day time out, 24 hours @ destination (can't be helped really due daily schedule) overnight back to UK. Followed by days off for recovery.
Or the S word, no we want to do "back to backs" and have more time off afterwards. 3 x 18-30 rest periods and time zone shifts.
Who wins? The S word. When the S word rules fatigue mysteriously dissappears
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Was sat in the cruise over the pond on my last sector reading an article in the telegraph about pilot fatigue. Turned to the skipper to ask him if he'd read it, only to find he'd nodded off!!
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Cap 371 is a LIMIT not a TARGET. If you use your engines at TOGA all the time, they burn out faster... The CAA really need to get a hold of this soon, or something nasty is going to happen.
well done to BALPA for taking this on this year
well done to BALPA for taking this on this year
Mr Angry,
Social factors are extremely important to pilots and probably to you as well. As you are probably aware the human body can take a lot of tiredeness, but, with suitable period for recuperation will avoid fatigue. Most pilots would like those periods of recuperation to be taken at times which suit their body clock, which in turn is tuned by some of the zeitgebers to the body's social environment. It's also nice to be around and awake when the wife is (otherwise she won't be for long.)
I suspect from your comments that you know the price of good roster, but not it's value.
Social factors are extremely important to pilots and probably to you as well. As you are probably aware the human body can take a lot of tiredeness, but, with suitable period for recuperation will avoid fatigue. Most pilots would like those periods of recuperation to be taken at times which suit their body clock, which in turn is tuned by some of the zeitgebers to the body's social environment. It's also nice to be around and awake when the wife is (otherwise she won't be for long.)
I suspect from your comments that you know the price of good roster, but not it's value.
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Unless you’ve run a marathon you simply have no empathy !
The symptoms of sleep deprivation are torturous. ( and were used that way during the war )
17 hours a week or a 17 hour duty is not relevant.
Flying an aeroplane when you’ve not closed your eyes for more than 24 hours is a living nightmare.
Experienced it – Comment !
Not experienced it – Listen and believe !
The symptoms of sleep deprivation are torturous. ( and were used that way during the war )
17 hours a week or a 17 hour duty is not relevant.
Flying an aeroplane when you’ve not closed your eyes for more than 24 hours is a living nightmare.
Experienced it – Comment !
Not experienced it – Listen and believe !
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"Cap 371 is a LIMIT not a TARGET. If you use your engines at TOGA all the time, they burn out faster... The CAA really need to get a hold of this soon, or something nasty is going to happen.
well done to BALPA for taking this on this year "
I wonder how long it will be before BALPA cave in on this one due to pressure from the Airlines, CAA and Government?
Just like they did with the Cabin Air Quality problems that are still on going.
well done to BALPA for taking this on this year "
I wonder how long it will be before BALPA cave in on this one due to pressure from the Airlines, CAA and Government?
Just like they did with the Cabin Air Quality problems that are still on going.
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thanks
Just a quick note to sincerely thank everybody who got in touch during the course of our research.
While our findings have now been broadcast, I'm still interested in the issue of fatigue, and other issues regarding aviation safety.
Please feel free to get in touch, in strictest confidence, if you have information on something which should concern the public.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
07769 977665
[email protected]
While our findings have now been broadcast, I'm still interested in the issue of fatigue, and other issues regarding aviation safety.
Please feel free to get in touch, in strictest confidence, if you have information on something which should concern the public.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
07769 977665
[email protected]
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Still think there is an easy way to demonstrate the issue of rosters and their inbuilt protection against severe tiredness: NOT!
Firstly what a load of cobblers about UK FTL's being robust and fool proof. Which planet has he been on?
Solution:
Get the honorable chairman of BATA, & the head of CAA FLT OPs & Medical, and any volunteer Chief Pilot and any volunteer head of rostering plus as many bean counters as possible; get them all to do their normal job, in their offices with radios, toilets, endless coffee & snacks, telephones and chit chat to colleagues, normal humidity and full O2 level, but work to the roster of a LoCo pilot. 5 earlies, 3 off 5 lates, roster changes, delays etc. Work at home on SBY then be called in to work at the office, but then a taxi to an out station office etc. etc. Oh! and not leave their desk for more than 15 minutes in 11 hours.
When they've done that for 2 patterns, to their lovingly robust tiredness free FTL's, ask them again if they understand the issue. There's nowt like going to the coal face to see if it is really dirty.
Firstly what a load of cobblers about UK FTL's being robust and fool proof. Which planet has he been on?
Solution:
Get the honorable chairman of BATA, & the head of CAA FLT OPs & Medical, and any volunteer Chief Pilot and any volunteer head of rostering plus as many bean counters as possible; get them all to do their normal job, in their offices with radios, toilets, endless coffee & snacks, telephones and chit chat to colleagues, normal humidity and full O2 level, but work to the roster of a LoCo pilot. 5 earlies, 3 off 5 lates, roster changes, delays etc. Work at home on SBY then be called in to work at the office, but then a taxi to an out station office etc. etc. Oh! and not leave their desk for more than 15 minutes in 11 hours.
When they've done that for 2 patterns, to their lovingly robust tiredness free FTL's, ask them again if they understand the issue. There's nowt like going to the coal face to see if it is really dirty.
CAA pilots
Someone said: "never done 4 sector days with 20 min turn-arounds- 5 days running!"
CAA employs ex-airline pilots, and airlines employ ex-CAA pilots - even as managers! I know this is a rumour forum, but slagging off colleagues without any thought doesn't help.
Quick turnarounds are also not the only source of fatigue. Day after day of focussing doing longer hauls can also be knackering!
CAA employs ex-airline pilots, and airlines employ ex-CAA pilots - even as managers! I know this is a rumour forum, but slagging off colleagues without any thought doesn't help.
Quick turnarounds are also not the only source of fatigue. Day after day of focussing doing longer hauls can also be knackering!
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Ancient Observer, I have to agree. There are equally fatigueing longhaul rosters. The focus here has been on the shorthaul side, but longhaul, rostered poorly, can be tiring too for other reasons (wx, route, time zones, poor ATC, etc) An equally poisonous mix is long/shorthaul. Getting back from an allnighter from the Far East with a 16 hour break before a night turn can be murder too. Body clock, monsoon weather and many other operational issues can hurt too.
The CAA may have good restrictions, but the airlines need to stop using them as targets. In 21 years of flying various aircraft, I can honestly say that the pace has picked up. I used to wonder about what I would do upon retirement; now I wonder if I will make it that far. Something has to give.
The CAA may have good restrictions, but the airlines need to stop using them as targets. In 21 years of flying various aircraft, I can honestly say that the pace has picked up. I used to wonder about what I would do upon retirement; now I wonder if I will make it that far. Something has to give.