BBC Tiredness Study
I would have to agree with you there Willy Miller, a non pilot reading that article would think "17 hours? Geez".
They should infact mention duty hours as this can paint a completely different picture.
EpsilonVaz
They should infact mention duty hours as this can paint a completely different picture.
EpsilonVaz
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17 hour week
17 hours a week???.....what about that 15hrs 30mins duty to sharmelsheik that i did last week? I am also doing it again this week....and the week after.
So that must mean i get the rest of the week off?? riiiiiiiight!!
What other proffession takes your yearly hour total and devides it by the number of weeks in a year??? inc hols???....do teachers only work 30 hrs a week????...dont think so.
So that must mean i get the rest of the week off?? riiiiiiiight!!
What other proffession takes your yearly hour total and devides it by the number of weeks in a year??? inc hols???....do teachers only work 30 hrs a week????...dont think so.
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Bader made a distinction between tiredness and fatigue, the later resulting in significantly impaired reactions and performance by an individual in his duties. If a normally fit and well crew member is within the FTL and having taken due care to utilize rest periods as intened, reaches a point of 'fatigue', then it is possibly a failure of the company's FTL scheme. That should, in every case, result in an MOR/ASR, and a subsequent investigation as to why.
Although, I can understand why some would be reluctant to file an MOR, failing to stand up and do so may be masking a bigger problem. Fatigue should be reported as an occurrence and any company worth it's AOC would honestly look at the issue, not least of which it is on record with the CAA and the Company's flight safety people.
Further, crewing and ops officers should be trained in Human Factors/CRM and Basic Aviation Physiology and Health Maintenance and the use of phrases like, ' are you refusing this duty' when related to tiredness or fatigue should never be used.
Although, I can understand why some would be reluctant to file an MOR, failing to stand up and do so may be masking a bigger problem. Fatigue should be reported as an occurrence and any company worth it's AOC would honestly look at the issue, not least of which it is on record with the CAA and the Company's flight safety people.
Further, crewing and ops officers should be trained in Human Factors/CRM and Basic Aviation Physiology and Health Maintenance and the use of phrases like, ' are you refusing this duty' when related to tiredness or fatigue should never be used.
Further, crewing and ops officers should be trained in Human Factors/CRM and Basic Aviation Physiology and Health Maintenance and the use of phrases like, ' are you refusing this duty' when related to tiredness or fatigue should never be used.
'I don't care, you are LEGAL for this duty'
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The fault again points back to CAA and ancient duty time regulations. Crewings reply "it is legal" shows that there is no corrolation between rules and rality. I do an Egyps with 14:15 duty coming back at 04:00 in the morning and then 22 hours later start at 02:00 in the morning. How is my body clock supposed to adjust to that, and this is done twice or more per week in the summer season!! Yes, it is legal by CAP 371 standard, but several studies around the world has shown that this is the worst you can do to any person( and this is usually followed by a non-precision approach into UK airfield due to runway work!!). I feel very confident in the CAA when they say that we have the "Best duty regulations in the world". Safe to say behind a desk. When will CAA, BALPA and general public see that this is not safe ? hopefully before someting serious happens. Off to bed for another Egypt tomorrow 
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British Air Transport association -Pointless?
I've just watched the British Air Transport association spokesman (BBC News25/7 in an embarassingly obvious wig) have a go at balpa's fatigue policy. This same organisation made little noise during the crises our industry has faced recently-fuel price rises, calls for VAT on fuel, skymarshals, introduction of then doubling of airline passenger duty, security fiasco. What did this esteemed organisation have to say? Not a word. But mention fatigue and they have a suit right down to TV house to say (not quite in as many words) that pilots are a bunch of moaning idlers.
Does this outfit have any function at all other than pilot-bashing?
Does this outfit have any function at all other than pilot-bashing?
Take a look at the website
http://www.bata.uk.com/Web/Default.aspx
Our objective is:
"To encourage the safe, healthy and economic development of UK civil aviation"[/QUOTE]
Followed by blurb about taxes, DVT and disabled access. No mention about safety.
If you feel sufficiently motivated to write to them after reading the press statement (modelled on O'Leary's view of pilots) you can use this address:
Secretary General: Roger Wiltshire
[email protected]
And no I don't think it's up to much, I wonder why they got airtime?
http://www.bata.uk.com/Web/Default.aspx
Our objective is:
"To encourage the safe, healthy and economic development of UK civil aviation"[/QUOTE]
Followed by blurb about taxes, DVT and disabled access. No mention about safety.
If you feel sufficiently motivated to write to them after reading the press statement (modelled on O'Leary's view of pilots) you can use this address:
Secretary General: Roger Wiltshire
[email protected]
And no I don't think it's up to much, I wonder why they got airtime?
Paxing All Over The World
It is the detail of statement such as BlueVikingFlyer that are the points that have to be presented to the public consistently over the next years. They have to be in bite sized, media friendly sentences. Clear and calm. Over and over again.
In my view, one fine thing that came out of the BBC 1 (TV) 6 o'clock news on 25th June was the CAA saying that everything was wonderful and their FTL scheme the best in the world. This was fine for two reasons:
In my view, one fine thing that came out of the BBC 1 (TV) 6 o'clock news on 25th June was the CAA saying that everything was wonderful and their FTL scheme the best in the world. This was fine for two reasons:
- Most normal humans only accept that there is a problem when the government officially deny it. So, now we know that there is a problem.
- When the media are picking over the [future] FTL related prang - someone can show this piece of video and ask the CAA if they were correct. No, it won't change that prang but it will be a step on the way to preventing the next.
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Just a PPL view...... what always puzzles me is the 900 hours 'one size fits all' legal approach. In terms of sheer workload, it has to be more demanding = tiring flying multiple short hops between many airports in a day than a single point-to-point trans-oceanic flight.
I know there are many other factors at play, but some max restriction on number of actual flights in combination with the 900 hours might be the way to go....... any thoughts?
I know there are many other factors at play, but some max restriction on number of actual flights in combination with the 900 hours might be the way to go....... any thoughts?
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you are dead right -the 900 hours is a blunt instrument. What's more it represents purely flying hours and takes no account of DUTY time. Long periods of time spent training, positioning, on turnround, on pre and post flight duty don't count at all in this total. BATA are well aware of this and know full well their notional 17hr figure is deliberately misleading.
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Whilst highlighting a problem in the industry to the general public, I can't see how the SLF can realistically help out with this one. Sure, it's not difficult to work out which operators are putting their crews in this situation, but would boycotting them really help? They'd feel the pinch and try to squeeze more out of you folk and surely that would make matters worse?
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Fact 1: The CAA accept CAP371 is not robust enough in the environment airlines are forced to operate.
Fact 2: The CAA accepts that CAP 371 allows rostering practices that are fatiguing without there being any method in place to monitor that fatigue.
Fact 3: The CAA believes that CAP 371 limits are now being used as targets and this is not in the spirit of the guidance.
Fact 4: The CAA feel it is no longer acceptable to justify a fatiguing roster by saying "it is legal".
I can state this as fact because a colleague of mine was at a CAA Fatigue Risk Seminar where they stood up and made these statements.
Imagine my surprise when I see a CAA spokesman say that our FTL's are "comprehensive, robust and protective" .
Fact 2: The CAA accepts that CAP 371 allows rostering practices that are fatiguing without there being any method in place to monitor that fatigue.
Fact 3: The CAA believes that CAP 371 limits are now being used as targets and this is not in the spirit of the guidance.
Fact 4: The CAA feel it is no longer acceptable to justify a fatiguing roster by saying "it is legal".
I can state this as fact because a colleague of mine was at a CAA Fatigue Risk Seminar where they stood up and made these statements.
Imagine my surprise when I see a CAA spokesman say that our FTL's are "comprehensive, robust and protective" .
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ShotOne
The 900hrs a year is a soundbite intended to make a pilots life seem easy. Job achieved on that score.
However, there is the 2,000 duty hours a year limit that not a lot of people seem to either know about or refer to. Unfortunately it doesn't have the required impact when you're trying to imply that pilots are under worked and overpaid!
BlueVikingFlyer - your 22 hour rest is mentioned in CAP371 however it is cunningly covered by the words "should be avoided". Oh how different life would be if the word 'should' was replaced with 'must'.
The 900hrs a year is a soundbite intended to make a pilots life seem easy. Job achieved on that score.
However, there is the 2,000 duty hours a year limit that not a lot of people seem to either know about or refer to. Unfortunately it doesn't have the required impact when you're trying to imply that pilots are under worked and overpaid!
BlueVikingFlyer - your 22 hour rest is mentioned in CAP371 however it is cunningly covered by the words "should be avoided". Oh how different life would be if the word 'should' was replaced with 'must'.
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I sat eating a meal last night after 5 early starts and 6 hours of driving to a new base with the shakes. The CAA are looking the other way whilst crews admit to serious errors due to fatigue. Vested interests i sudgest
'Finest FTL in the world' - my response rhymes with the word rollocks. 900 hour is a buzz phrase for the CAA to use at will - fact is ALL of us know that fatigue is a huge issue. As SHOTONE says, its not a question of flying hours per se, its duty hours, earlies into lates into nights, positioning, longhaul/shorthaul mix - the list is endless. Yes, its what we get paid for but sheer 'professionalism' sometimes overrules commonsense and we fly when we should not - anyone who thinks otherwise, Roger Wiltshire and the CAA included is in denial.
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The CAA need to wake up and sort FTL out before there are accidents which inevitably will follow from continuous fatigue, spokes people such as Wiltshire should be gagged and given some paper to push in a quiet corner some where! The airline I work for have terrible rostering practices and are not interested in the welfare of their workforce....same old story...its legal, I think both the CAA and the Airline management should be held accountable if it were shown in an accident that the "pilot error" was due to fatigue due to the outdated system we still operate to in this country, we are supposed to be amongst the world leaders in aviation....more like a laughing stock. Long term health of pilots exposed to such working practices, contiuous fatigue and stress should also be on top of everybodies list, perhaps some litigation would get everyones attention
Wakey wakey CAA time to put some of our fees etc to good use to look after the UK aviation
Wakey wakey CAA time to put some of our fees etc to good use to look after the UK aviation
Thread Starter
Fatigue - a suggestion
As a mere PPL my problem is the opposite one to yours - I'm not getting enough hours!
But I have a suggestion -
Would it be possible for a few shorthaul pilots to be given tests for alertness / reaction time / other symptoms by a suitably qualified medical person, between multiple sectors? I appreciate that airlines would not cooperate in this but with a bit of subterfuge it ought to be possible, certainly after the last sector of a long day.
A peer-reviewed study of results, published in a medical journal would have to be taken seriously.
Just a thought...
But I have a suggestion -
Would it be possible for a few shorthaul pilots to be given tests for alertness / reaction time / other symptoms by a suitably qualified medical person, between multiple sectors? I appreciate that airlines would not cooperate in this but with a bit of subterfuge it ought to be possible, certainly after the last sector of a long day.
A peer-reviewed study of results, published in a medical journal would have to be taken seriously.
Just a thought...