COUNTDOWN at CATHAY.
Guest
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Sounds as though these CX pilots are getting desperate and have delayed their "action" for a few days. Suspect that the company has more clout than they thought.
Better to keep your jobs guys than to be out on the street, especially for the very vocal effos. Not many jobs for malcontents these days.
Some guys just have to learn the hard way.
Better to keep your jobs guys than to be out on the street, especially for the very vocal effos. Not many jobs for malcontents these days.
Some guys just have to learn the hard way.
Guest
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411A, your last post really DOES prove that you are completely unknowledgable about almost ALL aspects of aviation, and the CX dispute in particular, however you continue to post either to (a) clock up more posting numbers against your handle, or, (b) to enjoy being abused because of the irrationale you exhibit each time you hit the submit key. Honestly, read Herb's previous comments, and take them to heart!
The Cathay pilots have delayed the start of their action so as not to inconvenience the travelling public over a holiday period - what's the point of taking action that appears to be aimed at the general public, and upsetting them from day #1 - besides that a couple of days NOW are neither here nor there in the overall scenario of what looks like being a l o n g drawn out battle.
Secondly, the job situation is extremely healthy for pilots at present. One of my work colleagues has had two job offers in the past 14 days - one a 767 job based in Japan, and the other as a B747 skipper based in L.A. - and he is not rated on either aircraft! But that isn't the point.
Why stay in a job with an abusive, aggressive employer - the aggro factor is going to affect your life even when you are not working, always wondering what the pr!ck is going to try to take away from you at his whim and fancy. It's patently obvious that this current management at CX is nothing less than a bully, who doesn't care how much of the company's financial resources he squanders to satisfy his ego. This time however - if he persists - HE may well cause the demise of Cathay and ALL its employees.
After all, what do you call an airline that doesn't have pilots?
The Cathay pilots have delayed the start of their action so as not to inconvenience the travelling public over a holiday period - what's the point of taking action that appears to be aimed at the general public, and upsetting them from day #1 - besides that a couple of days NOW are neither here nor there in the overall scenario of what looks like being a l o n g drawn out battle.
Secondly, the job situation is extremely healthy for pilots at present. One of my work colleagues has had two job offers in the past 14 days - one a 767 job based in Japan, and the other as a B747 skipper based in L.A. - and he is not rated on either aircraft! But that isn't the point.
Why stay in a job with an abusive, aggressive employer - the aggro factor is going to affect your life even when you are not working, always wondering what the pr!ck is going to try to take away from you at his whim and fancy. It's patently obvious that this current management at CX is nothing less than a bully, who doesn't care how much of the company's financial resources he squanders to satisfy his ego. This time however - if he persists - HE may well cause the demise of Cathay and ALL its employees.
After all, what do you call an airline that doesn't have pilots?
Guest
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Kaptin M---
And what do we call pilots without an airline? Well, where I come from, it's called "out of work" as in out of work, Australian style, circa 1989.
Suspect that CX management has all the face cards. Just because all the CX pilots think, wish, hope, it will all "be better" ain't going to make it happen.
And what do we call pilots without an airline? Well, where I come from, it's called "out of work" as in out of work, Australian style, circa 1989.
Suspect that CX management has all the face cards. Just because all the CX pilots think, wish, hope, it will all "be better" ain't going to make it happen.
Guest
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CX Pilots
No pain no gain, No risk no fun. We can not have feet on both sides, Go for all out war!
Good luck. The North american pilots have nonstandard RT but very high standard Union, thats why they always get what they aim for.
Once again good luck
No pain no gain, No risk no fun. We can not have feet on both sides, Go for all out war!
Good luck. The North american pilots have nonstandard RT but very high standard Union, thats why they always get what they aim for.
Once again good luck
Guest
Posts: n/a
I understand that this is none of my business as i am an outsider, however i must urge you guys to stick to your previous commitment to remain quiet on this issue. 411a-hole is clearly a manager of the new style (similar to yours) and knows the right buttons to push to elicit a response from you boys. This has the potential to expose any cracks (no matter how small) that might be appearing in your united front. It goes without saying that this is a very emotional issue, however most responses will only serve to strengthen the position of the company, not yours. From where i sit, the fact that you are prepared to be drawn into an argument with 411a-hole indicates you may not be focused enough on the big picture. Sure venting your spleen will bring some short term relief in these tense times, however it is unlikely it will help your cause at all, and most likely will be detrimental because, as you all well know, your management is reading this. If you cannot maintain commitment to keeping quiet on this forum, it can only be assumed by your adversaries that you will eventually break ranks on the main issue as well. DONT LET THAT HAPPEN. Don't for a minute convince yourself that one post won't make a difference, because somewhere, someone else is waivering, and when they see you guys talking, they will join in, then another and another and the rot has set in and 411a-hole has beaten you. DONT LET THAT HAPPEN. Get your heads below the trenches lads, this is a serious matter, leave the talk to your nominated spokesperson. Good luck and stay strong, your issues are significant and worth fighting for.
I too will retreat and steel my resolve against the inevitable snipes from the most universally dislike pruner in the world. Bring it on 411a-hole!
By the way, has it occurred to anyone else that this idiot (411a) spends so much time pruning that he either has no job or no life or likey both?
[This message has been edited by druckmefunk (edited 01 July 2001).]
I too will retreat and steel my resolve against the inevitable snipes from the most universally dislike pruner in the world. Bring it on 411a-hole!
By the way, has it occurred to anyone else that this idiot (411a) spends so much time pruning that he either has no job or no life or likey both?
[This message has been edited by druckmefunk (edited 01 July 2001).]
Guest
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Best wishes and strong support to all Cathay Pilots on strike from those of us here in the UK. CX are the most devious and sinister employer, as are their managment consultants who have helped create this situation.
We know that where you go, we at Big Airways may yet have to follow.(Hi Rod!).
Best of luck to you all.
Back to the management typing pool 411a!!
We know that where you go, we at Big Airways may yet have to follow.(Hi Rod!).
Best of luck to you all.
Back to the management typing pool 411a!!
Guest
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411A - you are a sh!t stirrer, but have hit the nail on the head. There will be no strike at Cathay Pacific and very little industrial action.(with the exception of the normal [and legal] sick parade)
Classic Dick has correctly summed up the situation and that IS IT ! Feet do the talking or accept what is on offer.
Kaptin M - after your time in SQ,or should I say - SINGAPORE, I can't believe you don't appreciate the Cathay Pilots' quandry!
This is not '89 Mateeeeeeeeee and neither is it Australia !
Keep the faith :]
*****edited for typo*******
[This message has been edited by Whiskery (edited 01 July 2001).]
Classic Dick has correctly summed up the situation and that IS IT ! Feet do the talking or accept what is on offer.
Kaptin M - after your time in SQ,or should I say - SINGAPORE, I can't believe you don't appreciate the Cathay Pilots' quandry!
This is not '89 Mateeeeeeeeee and neither is it Australia !
Keep the faith :]
*****edited for typo*******
[This message has been edited by Whiskery (edited 01 July 2001).]
Guest
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How are CX management selected?
There seems to be great similarities in those chosen to serve in the heady heights of Cathay management. Ex - RAF / RAAF, Free mason, Owner of rotting hulk type barge in one of the marinas around HK, Married a Local Chinese girl, fanatical consumer of the company financed liquid lunch to name but a few. What puzzles me is the downward spiral in intelligence. Could it be the case that when a manager appoints his replacement he is aware that it would be very easy to expose the stupidity which accompanied his reign. To avoid this he is constrained to install a successor who has proved beyond all doubt to be more stupid than himself. Just a theory but it would explain a lot.
Seriously, I would like to add my voice to the support that the AOA has already received. Don't underestimate the enemy but please don't under estimate yourselves. The damage has already been done by inept management. Further inaction merely covers up their failures.
Good luck guys.
There seems to be great similarities in those chosen to serve in the heady heights of Cathay management. Ex - RAF / RAAF, Free mason, Owner of rotting hulk type barge in one of the marinas around HK, Married a Local Chinese girl, fanatical consumer of the company financed liquid lunch to name but a few. What puzzles me is the downward spiral in intelligence. Could it be the case that when a manager appoints his replacement he is aware that it would be very easy to expose the stupidity which accompanied his reign. To avoid this he is constrained to install a successor who has proved beyond all doubt to be more stupid than himself. Just a theory but it would explain a lot.
Seriously, I would like to add my voice to the support that the AOA has already received. Don't underestimate the enemy but please don't under estimate yourselves. The damage has already been done by inept management. Further inaction merely covers up their failures.
Good luck guys.
Guest
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This action commenced today [Tue., July 3rd], and I want to again wish Cathay pilots every success in overcoming an unimaginative, soon-to-be-replaced, unpopular manager, and his couple of sidekicks.
Whiskery, my OLD friend, I am absolutely, entirely, 110% behind the pilots employed by Cathay and fully appreciate of their situation - I have experienced several employers since the "heady days" of 1989, and actually see little (if any) difference in the tactics used by so-called management who believe that they need to justify their positions by a confrontation with their staff. (The book "Confessions of a union buster" by Marty Jay Levitt, should be compulsory reading for ALL pilots)
As pilots are (in their opinion) "high profile", we have become the target of these pathetic stunts, which they feel will justify their obscene salaries, IF SUCCESSFUL, regardless of cost to the company and shareholders!
Negotiation NOT confrontation, made the airlines the great money spinners for ALL involved during the 70's and 80's! The airlines that have engaged in aggressive, confrontationist attacks on their pilots have ended up as R.I.P's.
Is this what Cathay shareholders and passengers want from their investments?
[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 03 July 2001).]
Whiskery, my OLD friend, I am absolutely, entirely, 110% behind the pilots employed by Cathay and fully appreciate of their situation - I have experienced several employers since the "heady days" of 1989, and actually see little (if any) difference in the tactics used by so-called management who believe that they need to justify their positions by a confrontation with their staff. (The book "Confessions of a union buster" by Marty Jay Levitt, should be compulsory reading for ALL pilots)
As pilots are (in their opinion) "high profile", we have become the target of these pathetic stunts, which they feel will justify their obscene salaries, IF SUCCESSFUL, regardless of cost to the company and shareholders!
Negotiation NOT confrontation, made the airlines the great money spinners for ALL involved during the 70's and 80's! The airlines that have engaged in aggressive, confrontationist attacks on their pilots have ended up as R.I.P's.
Is this what Cathay shareholders and passengers want from their investments?
[This message has been edited by Kaptin M (edited 03 July 2001).]
Guest
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SCMP Wednesday, July 4, 2001
Pilots put battle plan into action
Cathay flights escape disruption on opening day of union campaign
JO BOWMAN and VICTORIA BUTTON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cathay Pacific pilots yesterday launched industrial action they say will leave flights plagued by delays, especially those to Europe and North America, although the move had no immediate impact on passengers.
The Aircrew Officers' Association for the first time laid out its battle plan for the protest over pay and conditions, but said it could be days or weeks before the action began to hit flights.
The union said it would maintain the action, and gradually increase it, until pilots had a fair deal. Cathay said it would not give in to the pilots' demands, no matter how disruptive, drawn out and expensive the fight became.
Under the union's "maximum safety" strategy, crew are now conducting repeated safety checks and will no longer arrive for work early to begin reading flight documents.
Instructions to union members, about 1,300 of Cathay's 1,500 pilots, were sent by e-mail early yesterday, ordering an immediate start to the protest.
Cathay said operations were normal yesterday. It conceded bookings had dipped and advised passengers to check the status of flights before heading for the airport.
"It is with great regret that for the first time in its 37-year history, the [union] has been forced into taking action it did not wish to happen," union general secretary John Findlay said.
The "maximum safety" strategy is a 27-page document detailing safety considerations under 12 categories, from arriving at the aircraft to doing paperwork after landing, and more than 100 sub-categories. It quotes extensively from operation manuals.
"While there is no prize for achieving the most points on the day, you will be judged by your peers for your level of contribution to flight safety. How safe can you make the operation today?" the plan says in its introduction.
Cathay's corporate development director, Tony Tyler, said if the union had put as much effort into negotiation as into preparing what he called the "Hong Kong disruption plan", an agreement could have been reached by now - a claim dismissed by Mr Findlay as untrue and "yet another cheap shot by Cathay's PR machine".
Mr Tyler said: "Using [safety] as a blunt club in industrial action undermines the association itself and professional pilots generally."
He said the public would see the strategy as an attempt to disrupt the airline and Hong Kong's tourism industry.
Mr Findlay said pilots would work in strict accordance with Cathay's operation manuals. He said management had "impinged upon safety margins" by relying on pilot goodwill to find time for necessary checks.
Crew would no longer arrive earlier than the required 80 minutes before departure to begin reading flight papers, regardless of the scheduled take-off time.
Long-haul flights would be worst affected, as they involved more pre-flight reading.
In the cockpit, each crew member would carry out safety checks, which would all be checked and rechecked by every pilot on board.
In normal circumstances, Mr Findlay said, procedures could be "abbreviated" safely and crew did much of the required reading in their own time.
"We make no implication whatsoever that Cathay Pacific is not one of the safest airlines in the world. It is," Mr Findlay said. "But ensuring that all pre-flight preparation is carried out and cross-checked meticulously will take longer than before."
Cathay said seven flights had suffered delays yesterday, but none because of the pilots' action. It said at least two more flights would be delayed today.
Mr Tyler said the company was resolute in not giving in, even if the action dragged on for a year, and warned it was watching pilots to ensure they did not "cross the line".
"We're not in a position to be able to accept unreasonable demands which completely erode our competitiveness in the long term," Mr Tyler said.
He said the 80-minute action would not cause delays. The airline has said it has contingency measures to limit disruption.
Week-long talks between the two sides collapsed last week, with each side blaming the other.
Mr Findlay said it could be days or even weeks before flights began to be affected, as many pilots were travelling and would not have seen the union's e-mail. But he said pilots were as firm in their commitment as Cathay.
"Cathay management always walks away from the table. But this time they must understand that the pilots are serious," he said.
Safety first
Under the "maximum-safety" strategy, Cathay pilots plan to:
call in sick if not "physically and mentally fit to fly"
stop arriving early for work
take the maximum allowed time to prepare after being called on to fly if on standby
double up on pre-flight checks, instead of sharing the tasks between pilots
perform pre-flight tasks "precisely and methodically"
cross-check other crew members' actions "thoroughly".
Pilots put battle plan into action
Cathay flights escape disruption on opening day of union campaign
JO BOWMAN and VICTORIA BUTTON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cathay Pacific pilots yesterday launched industrial action they say will leave flights plagued by delays, especially those to Europe and North America, although the move had no immediate impact on passengers.
The Aircrew Officers' Association for the first time laid out its battle plan for the protest over pay and conditions, but said it could be days or weeks before the action began to hit flights.
The union said it would maintain the action, and gradually increase it, until pilots had a fair deal. Cathay said it would not give in to the pilots' demands, no matter how disruptive, drawn out and expensive the fight became.
Under the union's "maximum safety" strategy, crew are now conducting repeated safety checks and will no longer arrive for work early to begin reading flight documents.
Instructions to union members, about 1,300 of Cathay's 1,500 pilots, were sent by e-mail early yesterday, ordering an immediate start to the protest.
Cathay said operations were normal yesterday. It conceded bookings had dipped and advised passengers to check the status of flights before heading for the airport.
"It is with great regret that for the first time in its 37-year history, the [union] has been forced into taking action it did not wish to happen," union general secretary John Findlay said.
The "maximum safety" strategy is a 27-page document detailing safety considerations under 12 categories, from arriving at the aircraft to doing paperwork after landing, and more than 100 sub-categories. It quotes extensively from operation manuals.
"While there is no prize for achieving the most points on the day, you will be judged by your peers for your level of contribution to flight safety. How safe can you make the operation today?" the plan says in its introduction.
Cathay's corporate development director, Tony Tyler, said if the union had put as much effort into negotiation as into preparing what he called the "Hong Kong disruption plan", an agreement could have been reached by now - a claim dismissed by Mr Findlay as untrue and "yet another cheap shot by Cathay's PR machine".
Mr Tyler said: "Using [safety] as a blunt club in industrial action undermines the association itself and professional pilots generally."
He said the public would see the strategy as an attempt to disrupt the airline and Hong Kong's tourism industry.
Mr Findlay said pilots would work in strict accordance with Cathay's operation manuals. He said management had "impinged upon safety margins" by relying on pilot goodwill to find time for necessary checks.
Crew would no longer arrive earlier than the required 80 minutes before departure to begin reading flight papers, regardless of the scheduled take-off time.
Long-haul flights would be worst affected, as they involved more pre-flight reading.
In the cockpit, each crew member would carry out safety checks, which would all be checked and rechecked by every pilot on board.
In normal circumstances, Mr Findlay said, procedures could be "abbreviated" safely and crew did much of the required reading in their own time.
"We make no implication whatsoever that Cathay Pacific is not one of the safest airlines in the world. It is," Mr Findlay said. "But ensuring that all pre-flight preparation is carried out and cross-checked meticulously will take longer than before."
Cathay said seven flights had suffered delays yesterday, but none because of the pilots' action. It said at least two more flights would be delayed today.
Mr Tyler said the company was resolute in not giving in, even if the action dragged on for a year, and warned it was watching pilots to ensure they did not "cross the line".
"We're not in a position to be able to accept unreasonable demands which completely erode our competitiveness in the long term," Mr Tyler said.
He said the 80-minute action would not cause delays. The airline has said it has contingency measures to limit disruption.
Week-long talks between the two sides collapsed last week, with each side blaming the other.
Mr Findlay said it could be days or even weeks before flights began to be affected, as many pilots were travelling and would not have seen the union's e-mail. But he said pilots were as firm in their commitment as Cathay.
"Cathay management always walks away from the table. But this time they must understand that the pilots are serious," he said.
Safety first
Under the "maximum-safety" strategy, Cathay pilots plan to:
call in sick if not "physically and mentally fit to fly"
stop arriving early for work
take the maximum allowed time to prepare after being called on to fly if on standby
double up on pre-flight checks, instead of sharing the tasks between pilots
perform pre-flight tasks "precisely and methodically"
cross-check other crew members' actions "thoroughly".
Guest
Posts: n/a
Is this a time out, sick out or wuss out by the pilots? I think that the fact that CX shares rose 1.4% yesterday, at the start of the pilots action, says a lot about how the big boys feel about the long term outcome.Lets face it, how much resolve are the 200 or so second officers going to have, when push comes to shove.Back to the bush flying guys n gals.
Guest
Posts: n/a
From the BBC:
"Hong Kong's main airline, Cathay Pacific, has chartered 10 aircraft and their crew from Chinese airlines to help counter industrial action by its own pilots.
On Wednesday, more than a third of Cathay's flights were delayed by the protest.
Pilots have for the last three days been turning up later than normal for flights and strictly following pre-takeoff procedures.
Rival Chinese airlines are benefiting from the dispute
The pilots are demanding improved pay and conditions and say they will continue their work-to-rule until the airline makes a reasonable offer.
The chartered planes have come from rival airlines in China, including regional carriers like China Northwest, China Southwest and China Eastern.
Over 70 Cathay Pacific flights have now been affected because of the pilots' protest. On Wednesday, the airline said over a third of all its flights were delayed - some by up to five hours.
Hong Kong's deputy leader, Donald Tsang, has said that the industrial action might harm Hong Kong's status as a regional aviation hub as well as its tourism and transport industries. But, he said, the government had no plans to intervene.
Talks brokered by Hong Kong's Labour Department broke down last week and neither side looks ready to return to the negotiating table.
Cathay Pacific's decision to hire new aircraft may keep up a full schedule of flights, but some of its passengers may not be happy to be transferred from one of Asia's largest airlines to a smaller Chinese carriers."
"Hong Kong's main airline, Cathay Pacific, has chartered 10 aircraft and their crew from Chinese airlines to help counter industrial action by its own pilots.
On Wednesday, more than a third of Cathay's flights were delayed by the protest.
Pilots have for the last three days been turning up later than normal for flights and strictly following pre-takeoff procedures.
Rival Chinese airlines are benefiting from the dispute
The pilots are demanding improved pay and conditions and say they will continue their work-to-rule until the airline makes a reasonable offer.
The chartered planes have come from rival airlines in China, including regional carriers like China Northwest, China Southwest and China Eastern.
Over 70 Cathay Pacific flights have now been affected because of the pilots' protest. On Wednesday, the airline said over a third of all its flights were delayed - some by up to five hours.
Hong Kong's deputy leader, Donald Tsang, has said that the industrial action might harm Hong Kong's status as a regional aviation hub as well as its tourism and transport industries. But, he said, the government had no plans to intervene.
Talks brokered by Hong Kong's Labour Department broke down last week and neither side looks ready to return to the negotiating table.
Cathay Pacific's decision to hire new aircraft may keep up a full schedule of flights, but some of its passengers may not be happy to be transferred from one of Asia's largest airlines to a smaller Chinese carriers."
Guest
Posts: n/a
If Turnbull and Tyler realise their "dream", Cathay shares will go from Blue stock investments to speculative gamble classification trash in the next 2-3 weeks, if this dispute festers and erupts, as it promises to do.
The chartering of outside aircraft and crews will rapidly deplete Cathay Pacific's "war chest", which should have been EXTRA DIVIDENDS for the investors who believed Cathay Management were in the airline business of making money, and not squandering it on egotistical squabbles with their uppermost professional group with whom they have - until recently - had an amicable working relationship that handsomely rewarded the shareholders and Company alike.
IF current Cathay management have determined (as it would appear) that Cathay Pacific is to become just another "K-Mart Asian airline", they (CX Management) would have been held to have been fairer to the shareholders by advising them in advance, rather than dropping a bombshell that will likely cost not insignificant losses at an inopportune time.
The chartering of outside aircraft and crews will rapidly deplete Cathay Pacific's "war chest", which should have been EXTRA DIVIDENDS for the investors who believed Cathay Management were in the airline business of making money, and not squandering it on egotistical squabbles with their uppermost professional group with whom they have - until recently - had an amicable working relationship that handsomely rewarded the shareholders and Company alike.
IF current Cathay management have determined (as it would appear) that Cathay Pacific is to become just another "K-Mart Asian airline", they (CX Management) would have been held to have been fairer to the shareholders by advising them in advance, rather than dropping a bombshell that will likely cost not insignificant losses at an inopportune time.