COUNTDOWN at CATHAY.
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COUNTDOWN at CATHAY.
CNN stated today that Cathay Pacific management, and representatives of the Cathay pilots, held marathon 12 hour talks yesterday and would resume again today, in an attempt to avert disruptions to Hong Kong's flag carrier.
Some of the incidents preceding these talks have given an indication of the degree of pressure that has been building up on BOTH sides. It also appears obvious, that the battle-hardened Cathay pilots have realised that their experience alone might not be deep enough to "negotiate" with a management who also found it necessary to enlist outside advisors. Is this a glimpse of things to come for other pilot groups whose contracts/agreements are due for renewal?
July 1st looks set to be a chapter in CX's history book - one way or another!
Some of the incidents preceding these talks have given an indication of the degree of pressure that has been building up on BOTH sides. It also appears obvious, that the battle-hardened Cathay pilots have realised that their experience alone might not be deep enough to "negotiate" with a management who also found it necessary to enlist outside advisors. Is this a glimpse of things to come for other pilot groups whose contracts/agreements are due for renewal?
July 1st looks set to be a chapter in CX's history book - one way or another!
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Good luck CX guys, the time is now or never. Interesting article on P52 of the current Flight, "Widespread industrial action by flight crew.......is raising fears that the lack of airline investment in pilot training over the years has resulted in a crew shortage, giving flight crews the advantage in negotiations".
Talk to any airline recruiter and they can't get the guys with the hours and experience they need.
Not many of us relish the thought of industrial action, but a bit of pain now will return to us all the rewards which have been slowly chipped away over the last decade.
Talk to any airline recruiter and they can't get the guys with the hours and experience they need.
Not many of us relish the thought of industrial action, but a bit of pain now will return to us all the rewards which have been slowly chipped away over the last decade.
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I hear the HKAOA has been consulting with ALPA and other U.S. pilot associations...
Latest news doesn't appear encouraging:
June 29, 2001
Cathay Pacific Negotiations
With Pilots Union Collapse
By ZACH COLEMAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
HONG KONG -- Talks between Cathay Pacific Airways and its pilots' union broke down late Thursday after the union spurned a settlement proposal from the airline, increasing the possibility that the union will begin its threatened industrial action on Sunday.
The union is demanding that Cathay stick closer to monthly duty schedules and that it end differences in pay and benefits among pilots depending on date of hire and whether the pilot is based in his or her home country.
Cathay said its offer included hourly raises of 10.5% for pilots hired after 1993 and 5%-6% for those hired before that date. The offer also included revised overtime-pay calculations, increased retirement fund contributions, extended maternity leave and higher housing and children's education benefits for expatriate pilots.
Tony Tyler, Cathay's director of corporate development, questioned the union's interest in reaching an agreement and said they didn't present a meaningful counterproposal. He also said the union increased demands in response to concessions.
"We have put a lot of money on the table to keep the Hong Kong public traveling at a time when the airline industry and the regional economy remains shaky," said Mr. Tyler. "Anything more would be impossible and would clearly compromise our long-term competitiveness."
John Findlay, general secretary of the pilots' union, the Aircrew Officers Association, described the breakdown as "an impasse in negotiations," but said the union is willing to continue negotiations Friday.
A union representative wasn't available to comment on Cathay's proposal or the nature of Thursday's negotiations.
The pilots voted last week to begin "limited industrial action" on Sunday and planned to distribute instructions to members Friday. Cathay said if the union proceeded with instructions it would break off talks to focus on preparations to accommodate passengers during the three-day holiday weekend. Mr. Tyler said the carrier is making preparations to charter planes and rebook passengers on other airlines.
The union hasn't specified what its actions would be. A letter sent to members by Mr. Findlay said, however, that if Cathay threatened pilots with dismissal as it did during a 1999 confrontation, and they therefore feared going to work, they could be considered "unfit to fly."
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Just to put thing's in perspective; The post 1993 salary ('B' scale) increase is in the right direction although this is still well below 'A' scale salaries. The pre 1993 ('A' scale) salary increase is actually a removal of the third year of salary cuts. This will not be a big win for CX crews.
In fact the offer was announced to pilots by the Director of Flight Operations as a "this is what you are missing out on" letter.
The offer has been withdrawn by management. Swire managers do not negotiate in good faith. End of story.
In fact the offer was announced to pilots by the Director of Flight Operations as a "this is what you are missing out on" letter.
The offer has been withdrawn by management. Swire managers do not negotiate in good faith. End of story.
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Friday, June 29, 2001
Cathay rules out further talks
Management slams pilots' 'gimick' tactics
FLORENCE NG and ELLEN CHAN
Last updated at 6.25pm:
Cathay Pacific management on Friday ruled out further negotiations with pilots to avert threatened industrial action that could wreak havoc with flights in the peak-travel weeks ahead.
Tony Tyler, Cathay's director, Corporate Development, dismissed as a gimick an apparent olive branch from the pilots' union, who earlier announced that they would delay the start of the planned action from Sunday to after the holiday weekend.
''The delay in disruption for two more days is just another PR gesture. We urge the AOA [Aircrew Officers' Association] to pick up the new proposals on the table,'' he said.
The company simply could not afford anything more than the offer on the table and refused to continue negotiations under the threat of industrial action, Mr Tyler said.
The proposed package - a 10.5 per cent pay rise, 15.5 per cent MPF payment offer, and 2.5 times normal-pay overtime package - amounted to ''hundreds of millions of dollars''.
However, when questioned how Cathay would react to a possible initiative from the Chief Executive's office to avert industrial action by instituting a ''cooling down period'', Mr Tyler said: ''If it is imposed by the Government, we will accept it. But Cathay Pacific is not the one raising the temperature, it is the AOA leaders who need to cool down.''
Mr Tyler slammed the union for never having ''presented a meaningful counter-proposal'' and described a union request for data about their working hours as ''a ploy, a diversionary gimick''.
The union, should it accept the offer would have to make a ''firm commitment to avert any future industrial action through the four-year term of the agreement''.
''Our position is simple and firm. There is a generous and comprehensive agreement before the AOA leadership that provides for significant improvements in pay, benefits and rosters. It is the Hong Kong AOA leadership's choice whether or not to accept this deal. This proposal will remain on the table through tomorrow 30th June,'' a company statement read.
The offer would be withdrawn if there was no response from the AOA.
Speaking earlier, John Findlay, of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers' Association said the 48-hour delay to industrial action would allow four more negotiating days, should talks restart today.
The union called for Cathay Pacific to go back to the negotiating table and said it would reassess the situation after the new deadline.
Mr Findlay denied the union had bowed to pressure from Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa, some Legco members and the public.
He also responded to Mr Tung's condemnation of their possible industrial action, saying that the union shared his concerns.
''Mr Tung's statement did seem to be pro-Cathay Pacific. The reason for it was he had been ill-informed with only one-side's position.''
They had asked to meet Mr Tung on Thursday but were told that the Chief Executive had a full schedule for the day, Mr Findlay said.
He accused the management of refusing to provide data on hours worked which the pilots claimed could reveal the real picture of their work.
''The data which has been provided [by Cathay Pacific earlier] does not allow a proper evaluation of the contract. This data shows flying hours worked in a calendar year, that is from January to December. The data is not too useful in that it distorts the contractual requirement to work 700 flying hours in a Productive Year, which was measured by individual pilot's birthday,'' Mr Findlay said.
Cathay rules out further talks
Management slams pilots' 'gimick' tactics
FLORENCE NG and ELLEN CHAN
Last updated at 6.25pm:
Cathay Pacific management on Friday ruled out further negotiations with pilots to avert threatened industrial action that could wreak havoc with flights in the peak-travel weeks ahead.
Tony Tyler, Cathay's director, Corporate Development, dismissed as a gimick an apparent olive branch from the pilots' union, who earlier announced that they would delay the start of the planned action from Sunday to after the holiday weekend.
''The delay in disruption for two more days is just another PR gesture. We urge the AOA [Aircrew Officers' Association] to pick up the new proposals on the table,'' he said.
The company simply could not afford anything more than the offer on the table and refused to continue negotiations under the threat of industrial action, Mr Tyler said.
The proposed package - a 10.5 per cent pay rise, 15.5 per cent MPF payment offer, and 2.5 times normal-pay overtime package - amounted to ''hundreds of millions of dollars''.
However, when questioned how Cathay would react to a possible initiative from the Chief Executive's office to avert industrial action by instituting a ''cooling down period'', Mr Tyler said: ''If it is imposed by the Government, we will accept it. But Cathay Pacific is not the one raising the temperature, it is the AOA leaders who need to cool down.''
Mr Tyler slammed the union for never having ''presented a meaningful counter-proposal'' and described a union request for data about their working hours as ''a ploy, a diversionary gimick''.
The union, should it accept the offer would have to make a ''firm commitment to avert any future industrial action through the four-year term of the agreement''.
''Our position is simple and firm. There is a generous and comprehensive agreement before the AOA leadership that provides for significant improvements in pay, benefits and rosters. It is the Hong Kong AOA leadership's choice whether or not to accept this deal. This proposal will remain on the table through tomorrow 30th June,'' a company statement read.
The offer would be withdrawn if there was no response from the AOA.
Speaking earlier, John Findlay, of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers' Association said the 48-hour delay to industrial action would allow four more negotiating days, should talks restart today.
The union called for Cathay Pacific to go back to the negotiating table and said it would reassess the situation after the new deadline.
Mr Findlay denied the union had bowed to pressure from Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa, some Legco members and the public.
He also responded to Mr Tung's condemnation of their possible industrial action, saying that the union shared his concerns.
''Mr Tung's statement did seem to be pro-Cathay Pacific. The reason for it was he had been ill-informed with only one-side's position.''
They had asked to meet Mr Tung on Thursday but were told that the Chief Executive had a full schedule for the day, Mr Findlay said.
He accused the management of refusing to provide data on hours worked which the pilots claimed could reveal the real picture of their work.
''The data which has been provided [by Cathay Pacific earlier] does not allow a proper evaluation of the contract. This data shows flying hours worked in a calendar year, that is from January to December. The data is not too useful in that it distorts the contractual requirement to work 700 flying hours in a Productive Year, which was measured by individual pilot's birthday,'' Mr Findlay said.
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Latest development: CX offer is good till the evening of June 30, and will be withdrawn thereafter. HKAOA said they will NOT take the "limited industrial action" during the long weekend (July 2 is public holiday in HK). According to HK law, the government can stop an industrial action on the ground that it cause serious threat to its economy and/or stability. However, they never did that since such law was established back in 1975.
Personal obervation: probably the worst labour side PR for an industrial action. Even the quasi "labor parties" in HK is against the HKAOA, not to mention the general public and the government.
[This message has been edited by SEAT 81A (edited 29 June 2001).]
Personal obervation: probably the worst labour side PR for an industrial action. Even the quasi "labor parties" in HK is against the HKAOA, not to mention the general public and the government.
[This message has been edited by SEAT 81A (edited 29 June 2001).]
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4lla you are a compulsive idiot.
You know nothing of our situation besides the conversations you have in your dreams with the likes of me!
Tell the US carriers about salaries and what is negotiable.
You go on about the lack of local pilots (on other forums) and choose to ignore the ever increasing number in CX. Part of our dispute is rostering and part of our dispute is to remove the inequalities that exist for the locally employed pilot.
All I personally want is a proper roster and to stop the rot in my salary. I enter a third year of pay CUT'S tomorrow, July 1. You say CX can't afford to pay salaries like mine any more.... they just had their largest profit in their corporate history(>HK$ 5 BILLION). They have US$ BILLIONS in the bank and what you spout is management style drivel. Why is it always a case of screw the staff? Why are the rich always the ones getting richer? Why do you say what you do????
Keep your dirty wannabe nose out of my business. You disgust almost all pilots that read these forums with your pathetic attitude. I think you might be an accountant in real life!
You know nothing of our situation besides the conversations you have in your dreams with the likes of me!
Tell the US carriers about salaries and what is negotiable.
You go on about the lack of local pilots (on other forums) and choose to ignore the ever increasing number in CX. Part of our dispute is rostering and part of our dispute is to remove the inequalities that exist for the locally employed pilot.
All I personally want is a proper roster and to stop the rot in my salary. I enter a third year of pay CUT'S tomorrow, July 1. You say CX can't afford to pay salaries like mine any more.... they just had their largest profit in their corporate history(>HK$ 5 BILLION). They have US$ BILLIONS in the bank and what you spout is management style drivel. Why is it always a case of screw the staff? Why are the rich always the ones getting richer? Why do you say what you do????
Keep your dirty wannabe nose out of my business. You disgust almost all pilots that read these forums with your pathetic attitude. I think you might be an accountant in real life!
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More from the South China Morning Post:
Saturday, June 30, 2001
Cathay turns screw on pilots
Airline rejects union's offer to delay start of industrial action as 'empty PR gesture'
JO BOWMAN
Cathay Pacific turned up the heat on its pilots yesterday, refusing to restart talks on pay and conditions, and saying the union could take or leave the package of improvements it had offered.
The airline dismissed as an "empty PR gesture" the pilots' move to put off any industrial action until at least Tuesday.
The union had planned to launch the action tomorrow and said the postponement showed its sincerity in wanting to negotiate a settlement without affecting passengers.
Cathay gave the pilots until midnight tonight to accept its offer and said it would be withdrawn at that time if there was no agreement.
Aircrew Officers' Association general secretary John Findlay said yesterday morning that members considered industrial action a last resort and urged Cathay to return to the negotiating table.
"We are now giving extra time for the talks to continue, right up to midnight on July 2. We will not be taking any action and the holiday plans of Hong Kong people this weekend will not be disrupted," he said.
"We call on Cathay Pacific to make a similar gesture. Let them show their sincerity . . . and get back to the negotiating table. We do not want conflict."
The union had planned to distribute its strategy for industrial action yesterday but said it would instead put the document out on Tuesday. The industrial action is widely expected to cause flight delays and cancellations almost immediately...
http://news.scmp.com/ZZZ9VWPXJOC.html
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I doubt the Pilot's "resolve" has changed one iota,the fact is,as with Singapore,it is impossible to effect any industrial action without severe consequences. The Pilot's know this and ,unfortunately so does the Cathay management.
Unless there was to be a similiar situation to the Pilot's Dispute of 1989 in Australia - they let their feet do the talking and all resigned. I fear the Cathay management will always hold the upper hand and will dictate terms and conditions accordingly. We had the same situation in Singapore and they always did just enough to keep us on board.
Unless there was to be a similiar situation to the Pilot's Dispute of 1989 in Australia - they let their feet do the talking and all resigned. I fear the Cathay management will always hold the upper hand and will dictate terms and conditions accordingly. We had the same situation in Singapore and they always did just enough to keep us on board.
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TRUST: I know you are frustrated, but what do you gain by saying something in such manner? You only lost support from other observers. That is the PR work that you and HKAOA should learn.
PR is crucial. The HK government is free to provide full support to CX because the public is on CX's side (in the 1999 dispute, they are slightly on the pilot's side) and politicians won't put pressure on the government for supporting the employer. CX also knows that most PAX will come back once the strike is over. Less PAX complain also means that it is easier for the non F/D staff to handle the strike. All these allow CX to play hard ball.
PR is crucial. The HK government is free to provide full support to CX because the public is on CX's side (in the 1999 dispute, they are slightly on the pilot's side) and politicians won't put pressure on the government for supporting the employer. CX also knows that most PAX will come back once the strike is over. Less PAX complain also means that it is easier for the non F/D staff to handle the strike. All these allow CX to play hard ball.
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Thrust, I disagree, 411A had his position protected by a pilot representative group - ALPA-S - during his tenure at SQ, something to which he is probably oblivious. likewise, the "golden years at Cathay", to which he makes frequent reference, were "golden" because employer/employee worked TOGETHER to overcome contractual differences.
Honestly, how many grey cells does it take for an employer to say, "Here is your contract - take it or leave it!".
How does management with THAT type of mentality justify the salaries they draw.
BTW, can someone tell us exactly what the salaries of these Einsteins are, please?
One other simple equation:
Q: Take management away from the airline for a month, and see how long the airline is grounded.
A: The truth is, NO-ONE would probably even notice!
Not ONE day!
Next:
Q: Take the pilots away from the airline for a month, and see how long the airline is grounded.
A: I take a wild stab, and say....A MONTH!
Honestly, how many grey cells does it take for an employer to say, "Here is your contract - take it or leave it!".
How does management with THAT type of mentality justify the salaries they draw.
BTW, can someone tell us exactly what the salaries of these Einsteins are, please?
One other simple equation:
Q: Take management away from the airline for a month, and see how long the airline is grounded.
A: The truth is, NO-ONE would probably even notice!
Not ONE day!
Next:
Q: Take the pilots away from the airline for a month, and see how long the airline is grounded.
A: I take a wild stab, and say....A MONTH!
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All I or anyone else know about 411A is that he has access to a computer. This is an anonymous forum.
Read any thread that 411A post's onto and you will see the same reaction. He say nothing constructive and only tears away as though hateful of any pilot group. I find it therapeutic to vent my spleen on him in these times of stress. It's a pleasure to know that he is useful in one area at least.
Tough luck if I offend someone else.
However, I'll bow to you that think pprune is read by the chief exeuctive and leave him alone. (as if either care)
Read any thread that 411A post's onto and you will see the same reaction. He say nothing constructive and only tears away as though hateful of any pilot group. I find it therapeutic to vent my spleen on him in these times of stress. It's a pleasure to know that he is useful in one area at least.
Tough luck if I offend someone else.
However, I'll bow to you that think pprune is read by the chief exeuctive and leave him alone. (as if either care)
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The HKAOA ( all 1300 of us ) have voted for industrial action. The opinions of the likes of 411A have no bearing on the issue
PR is certainly part of the battle but we are not running for public office. If 100% of HK's population were on our side it wouldn't make one ounce of difference.
This is about the solidarity of the HKAOA. If we stick together perhaps something good will emerge.If we don't then we have to face the consequences. Every single member of the HKAOA realises this.
411A. Your comments are those of a bitter and lonely soul. I note the number of postings you have made on PPrune in such a short period of time particularly regarding this issue. Your views on our struggle certainly show an unhealthy interest in an issue about which you know absolutely nothing.
The HKAOA is doing the very best it can to try and right the wrongs of the last 8 years. We don't have all the answers and the outcome is far from certain but we will try our best.
411A..Please go away. Please inflict your views on persons involved directly with you and your immediate surroundings. A lot of good people have put a lot of effort in to the just fight against the corrupt Cathay management. You and your comments do them a huge injustice.
Your presence amongst us disgusts me.
Thanks to all the other professionals for your support.
PR is certainly part of the battle but we are not running for public office. If 100% of HK's population were on our side it wouldn't make one ounce of difference.
This is about the solidarity of the HKAOA. If we stick together perhaps something good will emerge.If we don't then we have to face the consequences. Every single member of the HKAOA realises this.
411A. Your comments are those of a bitter and lonely soul. I note the number of postings you have made on PPrune in such a short period of time particularly regarding this issue. Your views on our struggle certainly show an unhealthy interest in an issue about which you know absolutely nothing.
The HKAOA is doing the very best it can to try and right the wrongs of the last 8 years. We don't have all the answers and the outcome is far from certain but we will try our best.
411A..Please go away. Please inflict your views on persons involved directly with you and your immediate surroundings. A lot of good people have put a lot of effort in to the just fight against the corrupt Cathay management. You and your comments do them a huge injustice.
Your presence amongst us disgusts me.
Thanks to all the other professionals for your support.