kenya airlines 737-800 missing
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't see where wx would make a perfectly good, near new plane, fall out of the sky without a single R/T re problems.
Adam Air B737 - Indonesia - enroute - no R/T
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frangible,
Just a minor detail, if I may?
ELTs on the B737-800 aren't just activated by water. They are also activated by a preset "g" value in case of impact.
Quote:
ARM - (guarded position) ELT transmits automatically when it reaches its preset G-Load limit.
There are occasions where aircraft have crashed in dense forest, jungle, swamps, underbrush, etc., where visibility of a charred wreck is hard to spot over the course of several days, even with slow moving helicopters and eagle-eyed SAR techs with binoculars.
...but I take your point.
Willie
Just a minor detail, if I may?
ELTs on the B737-800 aren't just activated by water. They are also activated by a preset "g" value in case of impact.
Quote:
ARM - (guarded position) ELT transmits automatically when it reaches its preset G-Load limit.
There are occasions where aircraft have crashed in dense forest, jungle, swamps, underbrush, etc., where visibility of a charred wreck is hard to spot over the course of several days, even with slow moving helicopters and eagle-eyed SAR techs with binoculars.
...but I take your point.
Willie
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: France
Posts: 2,315
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Minor detail...
But an ELT trying to transmit on 121.5 and 406 MHz from under several feet of swamp mud... is unlikely to be picked up either by a satellite or SAR aircraft.
But an ELT trying to transmit on 121.5 and 406 MHz from under several feet of swamp mud... is unlikely to be picked up either by a satellite or SAR aircraft.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents, since it was questioned...
The Underwater Locator Beacon is a device fitted to aviation flight recorders such as the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder. ULBs are also sometimes required to be attached directly to an aircraft fuselage. When triggered by water immersion the ULB emits an ultrasonic pulse of 37.5 kHz at an interval of once per second. This signal can be heard and located by a variety of receivers. The beacon will operate for 30 days to a depth of 20000 feet (6 km).
Source: How Stuff Works
We're talking about ELT not ULT. Right?
Willie
The Underwater Locator Beacon is a device fitted to aviation flight recorders such as the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder. ULBs are also sometimes required to be attached directly to an aircraft fuselage. When triggered by water immersion the ULB emits an ultrasonic pulse of 37.5 kHz at an interval of once per second. This signal can be heard and located by a variety of receivers. The beacon will operate for 30 days to a depth of 20000 feet (6 km).
Source: How Stuff Works
We're talking about ELT not ULT. Right?
Willie
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Currently assisting customers in West Africa with their crisis response in respect to pax aboard. Friday night exfil via Nairobi to all points East and South on KQ is very popular with the expat community in Abidjan, Douala and elsewhere. Hence the high foreigner count on board.
Our (non-aviation) team in Douala, some of whom are permanently based there, report that weather at the time was "completely dogsh1t" had been for some time before, and was for some time afterwards. Its currently wet season and this is normal (except the note, that as for elsewhere, the weather, from a ground perspective, appears to grow more severe these days). The aviation weather reported elsewhere on this thread is about as reliable as any other piece of official information emanating from that part of the world, and probably needs taken with a grain of salt.
First hand reports we have received from those visiting the scene is of scattered small parts of aeroplane, not particularly recognisable, unless a larger part was completely submerged of course ? but apparently consistent with a fairly solid impact.
I know that there has been a lot of work done on wind shear and microbursts, particularly for arrivals, but what is the expert opinion on meeting the edge of a CB and a microburst, at an early stage of climb out, and given that Doula is a bit short on radar, (and if they did have it, it probably wouldn't work anyway), how much time for avoidance would you have at an early stage of flight using onboard radar ?
IHT is reporting double engine failure with a turnback, and not enough glide range, but would communications not be expected with the tower in that situation ?
On another note, probably unconnected, but worthy of consideration, another colleague travelled KQ from Nairobi to Accra on Friday ,(the service is Nairobi-Accra-Freetown I believe), on a new looking 737-??00, which shortly after on time-ish departure (scheduled for 1110) did a quick 180 and returned to Nairobi, pax were off loaded and re-boarded to depart over an hour or so later ( colleague is not sure if on the same airframe or not). My colleague is not aviation related enough to record the type other than 737, but schedules show that the Accra route is normally posted to run with a 737-700.
Related to scheduled aircraft, the Friday Abidjan/Douala to Nairobi flights are normally run with a 767-200/300, and are scheduled to depart Nairobi at 1245.
probably nothing more than a coincidence, but worth keeping an eye on all the same.
Our (non-aviation) team in Douala, some of whom are permanently based there, report that weather at the time was "completely dogsh1t" had been for some time before, and was for some time afterwards. Its currently wet season and this is normal (except the note, that as for elsewhere, the weather, from a ground perspective, appears to grow more severe these days). The aviation weather reported elsewhere on this thread is about as reliable as any other piece of official information emanating from that part of the world, and probably needs taken with a grain of salt.
First hand reports we have received from those visiting the scene is of scattered small parts of aeroplane, not particularly recognisable, unless a larger part was completely submerged of course ? but apparently consistent with a fairly solid impact.
I know that there has been a lot of work done on wind shear and microbursts, particularly for arrivals, but what is the expert opinion on meeting the edge of a CB and a microburst, at an early stage of climb out, and given that Doula is a bit short on radar, (and if they did have it, it probably wouldn't work anyway), how much time for avoidance would you have at an early stage of flight using onboard radar ?
IHT is reporting double engine failure with a turnback, and not enough glide range, but would communications not be expected with the tower in that situation ?
On another note, probably unconnected, but worthy of consideration, another colleague travelled KQ from Nairobi to Accra on Friday ,(the service is Nairobi-Accra-Freetown I believe), on a new looking 737-??00, which shortly after on time-ish departure (scheduled for 1110) did a quick 180 and returned to Nairobi, pax were off loaded and re-boarded to depart over an hour or so later ( colleague is not sure if on the same airframe or not). My colleague is not aviation related enough to record the type other than 737, but schedules show that the Accra route is normally posted to run with a 737-700.
Related to scheduled aircraft, the Friday Abidjan/Douala to Nairobi flights are normally run with a 767-200/300, and are scheduled to depart Nairobi at 1245.
probably nothing more than a coincidence, but worth keeping an eye on all the same.
Last edited by rmac; 7th May 2007 at 18:24. Reason: spelling and clarity
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unidentified passengers
Hi there,
A slight aside....
Can anybody tell me how it is that there are at least 3 unidentified passengers on flight? Surely in this day and age all airlines must know exactly who is on their plane and what countries they are from? I'm not remotely suggesting that this has anything to do with why the flight came down but I was surprised to see that in passenger lists there are still unknown passengers.
A slight aside....
Can anybody tell me how it is that there are at least 3 unidentified passengers on flight? Surely in this day and age all airlines must know exactly who is on their plane and what countries they are from? I'm not remotely suggesting that this has anything to do with why the flight came down but I was surprised to see that in passenger lists there are still unknown passengers.
ZbV
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Samsonite
Age: 51
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PAX
This age in Africa cousins, friends, who ever still walz on the aircraft with no ticket no nuttin. Sometimes corrupt officals or crews get paid cash to take people... Africa is a tough continent.
My symphaties the families and those that perished.
JJ
My symphaties the families and those that perished.
JJ
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Confirming my point about the quality of information in that part of the world. Don't know what it looked like from the air, but I suspect not much different than from the ground.
Very_Low_and_Fast said:-
would an observation from an eyewitness of the crash site help?
would an observation from an eyewitness of the crash site help?
Belcra said:
I was surprised to see that in passenger lists there are still unknown passengers.
I was surprised to see that in passenger lists there are still unknown passengers.
Kentons (morgue and identification experts) reckoned at one time that in their experience 2% on any flight were on false ID's, or travelling without the knowledge of a spouse/partner. But that's not quite the same as "unknown".
Condolences to all those who lost friends and loved ones.
Having just read the reports of the flight it reminded me of this report ...
Anyone know how soon after take off the procedures for the airline would require the autopilot to be engaged? (Sorry if adding more "uninformed" speculation)
JAS
Having just read the reports of the flight it reminded me of this report ...
13 Apr 2005 - El Al 737-800 Auto Pilot Malfunction
(IsraelNN.com) El Al officials yesterday announced that a Boeing 737-800 with 120 passengers on board encountered a major auto-pilot malfunction shortly following takeoff from Russia. The incident occurred approximately 2.5 weeks ago.
Pilots switched over to autopilot during takeoff and shortly thereafter, at 3,000 feet, the plane began to take a dive, rapidly losing altitude. Pilots pinpointed the malfunction at 2,700 feet, and turned off the autopilot, making the decision not to turn around but to continue. The plane climbed to 35,000 feet and continued on its journey to Tel Aviv.
(IsraelNN.com) El Al officials yesterday announced that a Boeing 737-800 with 120 passengers on board encountered a major auto-pilot malfunction shortly following takeoff from Russia. The incident occurred approximately 2.5 weeks ago.
Pilots switched over to autopilot during takeoff and shortly thereafter, at 3,000 feet, the plane began to take a dive, rapidly losing altitude. Pilots pinpointed the malfunction at 2,700 feet, and turned off the autopilot, making the decision not to turn around but to continue. The plane climbed to 35,000 feet and continued on its journey to Tel Aviv.
JAS
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Teletext reporting that Black Box(s) found and speculating about double engine failure / flameout and pilot poss attempting to glide back to airport also crash site 'suggests' 'near vertical' dive
Sounds like Mr Murphy linked up with Mr S*d on this one. Tragic
Let's hope we get some facts from BBs in a few days.
Sounds like Mr Murphy linked up with Mr S*d on this one. Tragic
Let's hope we get some facts from BBs in a few days.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sun, water, and lots of sand
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arcniz,
I have traced your map given onto Google Earth and it works out to be around 144km's from Doualo. Are you sure about your position from your scource? I understood that it was much closer to Doualo
I have traced your map given onto Google Earth and it works out to be around 144km's from Doualo. Are you sure about your position from your scource? I understood that it was much closer to Doualo
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sidestick driver says:
Reports as to the exact location are still confusing at present.
I previously posted the satpix view centered on the site to which your post refers. The link for that is: http://wikimapia.org/#y=2666997&x=10...14&l=0&m=h&v=2
On cross-checking, I realised the location first-posted is quite far south and not consistent with recent reports, so I deleted that and posted a new one (number 160, at the moment) which shows Douala and a 60-plus mile radius around it in the directions of interest. The link for THAT is: http://wikimapia.org/#y=3754634&x=97...10&l=0&m=h&v=2 .
Between the two views, the accident site is likely somewhere included. Please note that the map presentation which comes up when you select one of the links allows one to navigate by moving the map (left-click on map, hold down, push the map in whatever direction desired, then unclick). The map will also zoom in or out using the cross-like object in upper left of screen, with the fixpoint being at a crosshair visible near the center of the screen. (which is more Important for zooming in than for z-out.) With your side-stick skills, you should be able to master it in short order. Hope it proves useful.
If I am within reach of a network when higher-conficence information / data becomes available, I will post a corrected one-stop vector to the accident site. Won't hurt my feelings if someone else does so first, tho.
I have traced your map given onto Google Earth and it works out to be around 144km's from Doualo. Are you sure about your position from your scource? I understood that it was much closer to Doualo
I previously posted the satpix view centered on the site to which your post refers. The link for that is: http://wikimapia.org/#y=2666997&x=10...14&l=0&m=h&v=2
On cross-checking, I realised the location first-posted is quite far south and not consistent with recent reports, so I deleted that and posted a new one (number 160, at the moment) which shows Douala and a 60-plus mile radius around it in the directions of interest. The link for THAT is: http://wikimapia.org/#y=3754634&x=97...10&l=0&m=h&v=2 .
Between the two views, the accident site is likely somewhere included. Please note that the map presentation which comes up when you select one of the links allows one to navigate by moving the map (left-click on map, hold down, push the map in whatever direction desired, then unclick). The map will also zoom in or out using the cross-like object in upper left of screen, with the fixpoint being at a crosshair visible near the center of the screen. (which is more Important for zooming in than for z-out.) With your side-stick skills, you should be able to master it in short order. Hope it proves useful.
If I am within reach of a network when higher-conficence information / data becomes available, I will post a corrected one-stop vector to the accident site. Won't hurt my feelings if someone else does so first, tho.