Brit Captain in trouble in Milan?
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Dog
My laughter wasn't 'smug' at all. I laughed because I just couldn't believe either of the Captains could have behaved in such an OTT way - for the reasons given by others who've added their comments.
As for you hoping I "never have to make such a decision" ...... Are you serious?
What decision is so difficult?
There's no decision to be made.
My laughter wasn't 'smug' at all. I laughed because I just couldn't believe either of the Captains could have behaved in such an OTT way - for the reasons given by others who've added their comments.
As for you hoping I "never have to make such a decision" ...... Are you serious?
What decision is so difficult?
There's no decision to be made.
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Talking of ill thought out actions, anyone remember the Trident Capt (late 70's early 80's?) who was refused his breakfast prior to take off by the Purser at EGLL. Returned to stand and caused a significant delay whilst it was sorted out. Wonder if he's still flying with the Hounslow Flying Club - maybe even a PPRuNer?
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On Nov 11, 1973 a Varig 707 made a forced landing at Paris Orly. The aircraft was put down in an open field because an in flight fire was getting out of hand and the crew did not think they could make it to the airport. The suspicion was that a passenger was smoking in the lavatory and had put their cigarette in the waste bin, I believe this accident was the reason why smoke alarms and waste bin extinguishers were mandated in the toilets of commercial passenger transports.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/1973/730711-0.htm
http://aviation-safety.net/database/1973/730711-0.htm
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From my perspective as a passenger I have to say that I have a certain degree of sympathy the captain. Just how are the cabin crew supposed to prevent people smoking in the toilets if they are really determined to?
I recently flew from Rome to Buenos Aires with Alitalia. Things were okay for the the first two or three hours but after that it was quite obvious from the smell that some of my fellow travellers were going to the bog for a quick fag. This led to repeated "reminders" of the ban on smoking on the PA and the crew continually checking the toilets, as much I suppose to make sure that we all weren't going to be incinerated as in any hope of nabbing one of the culprits.
What to do?
I'm inclined to think that as there is no way to stop addicts dosing themselves, perhaps, and I say this through gritted teeth, allowing them to do this in an orderly fashion might be the lesser evil
[This message has been edited by Jorge Newberry (edited 27 June 2001).]
I recently flew from Rome to Buenos Aires with Alitalia. Things were okay for the the first two or three hours but after that it was quite obvious from the smell that some of my fellow travellers were going to the bog for a quick fag. This led to repeated "reminders" of the ban on smoking on the PA and the crew continually checking the toilets, as much I suppose to make sure that we all weren't going to be incinerated as in any hope of nabbing one of the culprits.
What to do?
I'm inclined to think that as there is no way to stop addicts dosing themselves, perhaps, and I say this through gritted teeth, allowing them to do this in an orderly fashion might be the lesser evil
[This message has been edited by Jorge Newberry (edited 27 June 2001).]
Guest
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This captain is right in stating that the safety of the flight was affected by the offender smoking in the toilet.
The offender was not identified and as such he had a weak argument in keeping all pax on board.
If now the spin-off of this court-case could be the installation of cameras or another system that start when the smoke alarm is triggered to enable to identify the offender the this captains actions served all of us.
Over the top; maybe; but definitely, in case of doubth he deserves our support.
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Smooth Trimmer
The offender was not identified and as such he had a weak argument in keeping all pax on board.
If now the spin-off of this court-case could be the installation of cameras or another system that start when the smoke alarm is triggered to enable to identify the offender the this captains actions served all of us.
Over the top; maybe; but definitely, in case of doubth he deserves our support.
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Smooth Trimmer
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There were good old days when smokers walked free..... I'm of the opinion that there must be a smokers room in every airplane probably a lav converted for the purpose.
Toilet flush liquid is inflammable and it's only a disaster waiting to happen as some passengers are not educated enough to understand the facts.That is the reason regulations demand the toilets be fitted with smoke detectors.
Airlines are forgetting they still are in the hospitality business and no smoking regulations on board are causing more problems than one.
Toilet flush liquid is inflammable and it's only a disaster waiting to happen as some passengers are not educated enough to understand the facts.That is the reason regulations demand the toilets be fitted with smoke detectors.
Airlines are forgetting they still are in the hospitality business and no smoking regulations on board are causing more problems than one.
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Surley not beyond the wit of man to devise safe smoking system (smoking sub compartment perhaps). In view of the remarkable PROVEN safety record of previous smoking on aircraft only logical conclusion is that the 'majority' want to stuff thier opinion down the tortured throat of these harmless junkies - opinionated, arrogant, sheep. Same people who drive in mid lane at 60 with fog lights on cos of rain - pathetic IMO.
As for: 'hope you don't have to face such a daunting decision'. 4 christs sake man! What would happen if you ever had to decide more than which of the 2 available meals you were going to choose. Terrifying!
Thank god for sane perspective of McGloff and Virgin..
As for: 'hope you don't have to face such a daunting decision'. 4 christs sake man! What would happen if you ever had to decide more than which of the 2 available meals you were going to choose. Terrifying!
Thank god for sane perspective of McGloff and Virgin..
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Couple of things that have made me think. Firstly I started looking after "walking cargo" in the days when smoking was still the done thing, and the number of times on a night flight a pax has fallen asleep with a lit cig, it was only a serious accident waiting to happen. Here in the UK , it is only an offence under the ANO to smoke in a part of the A/C that has been designated non smoking [for the most part that is all of the A/C] however I still do get flights that are designated smoking flights from the UK. and even on those, pax still insist on smoking in the toilets. With regards to the capt who kept the pax on, Ok maybe he was a little OTT, but we dont really know the full circumstances, ie how many times had it happened, did he seek police assitance and it was refused, or simply was he hoping somebody would shop the offender.
I have had smokers onboard many times, some just involve a simple "telling off" others get the "captains letter" treatment, however I have had 1 or 2 persistant offenders who thought they were untouchable, but they were wrong. Not only do they get met by the authorities but if it is on an outbound flight, they get refused return carriage, and the smug grin is soon wiped off.
Smoking on an A/C in secret is dangerous and the offenders should be sought and dealt with, but at what cost really is up to the crew and the cirumstances on the day, as I am sure this capt thought he was making the right decision in his circumstances
I have had smokers onboard many times, some just involve a simple "telling off" others get the "captains letter" treatment, however I have had 1 or 2 persistant offenders who thought they were untouchable, but they were wrong. Not only do they get met by the authorities but if it is on an outbound flight, they get refused return carriage, and the smug grin is soon wiped off.
Smoking on an A/C in secret is dangerous and the offenders should be sought and dealt with, but at what cost really is up to the crew and the cirumstances on the day, as I am sure this capt thought he was making the right decision in his circumstances
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Recall years ago when SV (Royal decree) banned smoking on domestic flights. A Saudi in F/C on my flight to DHA lit up and gave the finger to the purser. Notified DHA ops that security was needed upon arrival.
When the door was opened, two security types entered, grabbed the guy by the ankles and hauled him down the boarding steps, head bouncing off every step. Found out later he was arrested and held for six months.
End of problem.
The aircraft commander should allow security personnel to do their jobs.
When the door was opened, two security types entered, grabbed the guy by the ankles and hauled him down the boarding steps, head bouncing off every step. Found out later he was arrested and held for six months.
End of problem.
The aircraft commander should allow security personnel to do their jobs.
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Ranger one you asked to hear from cabin crew; what would we do under those circumstances in Milan?
Answering for myself only here.
Captain's decisions to be enforced as long as possible. When pax get out of hand and start getting aggressive I would inform the Captain that I was going to disarm the slide bars and open the doors.
Captain is God when it comes to decisions in-flight.
But this was a situation on the ground in a stationary AC, and I would follow my own common sense.
It's after all what the company pays me for doing.
Regarding the policing of pax, to a certain extent we have to do it, otherwise anarchy will break out on some flights.
But in far and away most cases handing the pax a "notice of violation" and telling him/her that (s)he will be met by local authorities upon landing, does the trick.
The best way in my experience is to come down like a ton of bricks in good time on those pax that obviously don't give a sh!t about the rules and the safety implications of same.
Since this goes against everything FA's are trained for, it's a new trick to learn for many of us. But it saves a load of hassle for everybody in the end.
Answering for myself only here.
Captain's decisions to be enforced as long as possible. When pax get out of hand and start getting aggressive I would inform the Captain that I was going to disarm the slide bars and open the doors.
Captain is God when it comes to decisions in-flight.
But this was a situation on the ground in a stationary AC, and I would follow my own common sense.
It's after all what the company pays me for doing.
Regarding the policing of pax, to a certain extent we have to do it, otherwise anarchy will break out on some flights.
But in far and away most cases handing the pax a "notice of violation" and telling him/her that (s)he will be met by local authorities upon landing, does the trick.
The best way in my experience is to come down like a ton of bricks in good time on those pax that obviously don't give a sh!t about the rules and the safety implications of same.
Since this goes against everything FA's are trained for, it's a new trick to learn for many of us. But it saves a load of hassle for everybody in the end.
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My sympathies to the Go Captain.
Here is a situation I had once.
The CSD reported to me, at a late stage in the descent, that he was reasonably certain that two passengers were using a Class A drug in the lavatory.
What would you do in this situation?
Fortunately my airline has an experienced operations department who had the solution. Customs were alerted with a description of the passengers and tried to locate them on exit. Unfortunately they were too late on the scene and the men got away. The airport police declined to get involved.
I could have done nothing I suppose BUT . . . you can't have people taking cocaine and then disposing the last of the stash in the aircraft can you?
If the Go Captain had enjoyed really good support from his operations department the outcome might have been different.
This is one of the disadvantages of working for a small airline - there is less back up and corporate experience to draw on.
Here is a situation I had once.
The CSD reported to me, at a late stage in the descent, that he was reasonably certain that two passengers were using a Class A drug in the lavatory.
What would you do in this situation?
Fortunately my airline has an experienced operations department who had the solution. Customs were alerted with a description of the passengers and tried to locate them on exit. Unfortunately they were too late on the scene and the men got away. The airport police declined to get involved.
I could have done nothing I suppose BUT . . . you can't have people taking cocaine and then disposing the last of the stash in the aircraft can you?
If the Go Captain had enjoyed really good support from his operations department the outcome might have been different.
This is one of the disadvantages of working for a small airline - there is less back up and corporate experience to draw on.
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Tricky one Wig Wag! What with it being late into descent the chances of them causing any disruption b4 disembarkation were pretty slim. And is the enforcement of drugs laws upto us?
Sounds like you did the wise thing, shame the customs were too late........
In a similar vein, I have a question for all. 2 weeks ago during ground stop at an out-station, our AC was boarded by local customs officers & sniffer dogs without so much as a by your leave. Crew was eating lunch but I was still in the front-galley checking catering so I could stop the the invasion in it's tracks and tell the officers that nobody was boarding the AC without first informing the Captain of their intentions and asking for his permission.
Customs people didn't take kindly to this, and complained rudely in their own language. Only when I answered them in the same language and told them that this was a foreign AC and as such the Captain was the BOSS and was owed due respect, did they stop trying to shove me aside, and asked could I please get the capatin for them?
Permission was of course granted and they did indeed find a small amount of hashish in one of the seat pockets. (after the cleaners had done their bit
)
My question, when the AC doors are open on foreign soil, what rules apply? Are the local authorities to be heeded in all things, or does the Captain still have authority on board??
PS: Paper Tiger, thanks for that link!
Interesting reading and as you say, thought provoking.
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Singularly Simple Person........
Sounds like you did the wise thing, shame the customs were too late........
In a similar vein, I have a question for all. 2 weeks ago during ground stop at an out-station, our AC was boarded by local customs officers & sniffer dogs without so much as a by your leave. Crew was eating lunch but I was still in the front-galley checking catering so I could stop the the invasion in it's tracks and tell the officers that nobody was boarding the AC without first informing the Captain of their intentions and asking for his permission.
Customs people didn't take kindly to this, and complained rudely in their own language. Only when I answered them in the same language and told them that this was a foreign AC and as such the Captain was the BOSS and was owed due respect, did they stop trying to shove me aside, and asked could I please get the capatin for them?
Permission was of course granted and they did indeed find a small amount of hashish in one of the seat pockets. (after the cleaners had done their bit
)My question, when the AC doors are open on foreign soil, what rules apply? Are the local authorities to be heeded in all things, or does the Captain still have authority on board??
PS: Paper Tiger, thanks for that link!
Interesting reading and as you say, thought provoking.
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Singularly Simple Person........
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I like the bit about the sprinkler system. But how about having the toilet airtight and when carbondioxide levels in the lu go above a sertain level all the air gets succed out creating a vaccum thus eradicading of the smell. Ergo, problem solved.
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Nothing to see here, just making use of the internet!
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Nothing to see here, just making use of the internet!
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Perhaps we should start a competition for the best story of an OTT action by a Captain.</font>
1. SEA-LAX. Meals run out before captain gets his. Makes unscheduled landing at SFO (<1 hour from destination). Refuses to take off again until he's fed.
2. LAS-DTW(?). Captain's special meal not loaded. Prior to departure, captain leaves the a/c, takes a taxi downtown, enjoys a leisurely buffet, returns to airport 90 minutes later.
Imagine being in the right seat on either of those ! Both were fired IIRC.
[This message has been edited by PaperTiger (edited 28 June 2001).]
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Flapsforty, answer to your question.
When the aircraft has stoped and the doors are OPEN the local authorites have control, ie if an incident takes place with a pax and you request assistance, or a law in the visiting country has been broken. Once the Doors have been CLOSED for takeoff, the commander has authority on behalf of the authorities of the contry the A/C is registered in. We had a canadian registered A/C a few years ago, and if there were any onboard incidents during flight theses were governed by canadian laws and not our UK ones. With regards to customes, yes it is courtesy for them to seek permission before boarding, however in almost all countries, customs officals have the right of entry and the right to detain the aircraft and its occupants without seeking permission from either the Airline, captain or local courts.
Hope this helps.
When the aircraft has stoped and the doors are OPEN the local authorites have control, ie if an incident takes place with a pax and you request assistance, or a law in the visiting country has been broken. Once the Doors have been CLOSED for takeoff, the commander has authority on behalf of the authorities of the contry the A/C is registered in. We had a canadian registered A/C a few years ago, and if there were any onboard incidents during flight theses were governed by canadian laws and not our UK ones. With regards to customes, yes it is courtesy for them to seek permission before boarding, however in almost all countries, customs officals have the right of entry and the right to detain the aircraft and its occupants without seeking permission from either the Airline, captain or local courts.
Hope this helps.
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As we are telling stories, I thought I would add my tuppence worth. A few years ago I had a passenger arrested on arrival in Palma. He had been caught smoking in the toilet which was bad enough but it was his "couldn't give a stuff" reaction to the cabin crew's remonstrations that sealed it for me (and him).
When I eventually manged to get down the stairs I could see a man gesticulating and remonstrating with the Guardia Civil. So I go up to him and tell him that it all very well being sorry now but it should have happened a long time ago when the cabin crew tackled him. His response? "But Captain I am your agent, that is the passenger over there" pointing to a very quiet individual who was standing at the bottom of the same steps which I had just descended. Exit stage right pne very embarrased pilot muttering " let that be a lesson to you anyway...no you I mean".
Sorry about all that, just thought I'd lighten it up a little. But before anyone accuses me of treating the subject lightly, I should perhaps add that I have actually been to court over another such incident but that is yet another story and yes I did get the right guy that time!
When I eventually manged to get down the stairs I could see a man gesticulating and remonstrating with the Guardia Civil. So I go up to him and tell him that it all very well being sorry now but it should have happened a long time ago when the cabin crew tackled him. His response? "But Captain I am your agent, that is the passenger over there" pointing to a very quiet individual who was standing at the bottom of the same steps which I had just descended. Exit stage right pne very embarrased pilot muttering " let that be a lesson to you anyway...no you I mean".
Sorry about all that, just thought I'd lighten it up a little. But before anyone accuses me of treating the subject lightly, I should perhaps add that I have actually been to court over another such incident but that is yet another story and yes I did get the right guy that time!
