BBC investigation into fatigue, working culture & safety standards
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London, UK
Age: 48
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi brownstar
Yep, I've certainly read about the alcohol equivalence to chronic fatigue ... and the scary-sounding fact that LEGAL fatigue levels proposed under subpart Q of JAR Ops is equivalent to above the UK motoring drink-drive limits (or four times the UK aviation limits).
A lot of this evidence is already in the public domain, so I'm not sure about repeating this methodology for our programme, since we can get interviews with the experts who supervised them.
As I think I've said already, what I need to do is prove that pilots are flying more hours than ever before (one estimate I've been given is that it's 30% higher than it was a decade ago) but I don't have the hard stats, and they're proving difficult to obtain. any ideas, anybody?
the same's the case for getting accident / incident stats with a proven fatigue link. i know it's commonplace for pilots not to report fatigue post-incident (for entirely understandable reasons!!), so this is making it quite difficult. Again, anybody in the know with smart ideas of how to get this information - I'd love to speak to you.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
[email protected]
+44 (0)7769 977665
Yep, I've certainly read about the alcohol equivalence to chronic fatigue ... and the scary-sounding fact that LEGAL fatigue levels proposed under subpart Q of JAR Ops is equivalent to above the UK motoring drink-drive limits (or four times the UK aviation limits).
A lot of this evidence is already in the public domain, so I'm not sure about repeating this methodology for our programme, since we can get interviews with the experts who supervised them.
As I think I've said already, what I need to do is prove that pilots are flying more hours than ever before (one estimate I've been given is that it's 30% higher than it was a decade ago) but I don't have the hard stats, and they're proving difficult to obtain. any ideas, anybody?
the same's the case for getting accident / incident stats with a proven fatigue link. i know it's commonplace for pilots not to report fatigue post-incident (for entirely understandable reasons!!), so this is making it quite difficult. Again, anybody in the know with smart ideas of how to get this information - I'd love to speak to you.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
[email protected]
+44 (0)7769 977665
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian
Perhaps if you got pilots to give you copies of their rosters, flight duties, etc dating back a few years or just gave you a summary of their months work /weeks work . you could comapre the likes of say air berilin and thier national flag carrier, ba short haul easy jet and ryanair , virgin,aer lingus and ba longhaul,emerits, cathy, singapore.
you would need to look at them over a number of years.
would that be of any use to you?
what about if you could say get a member of the public to follow the waking routine and activity pattern of a pilot put them in a decompression chamber, put the pressure to equate to that of an aircraft, similar sights, noise ,vibration levels, give them mental tasks to carry out and see how they feel after a week.
People as passengers on longer flights normally get off the aircraft feeling tired from the inactivity and the aircraft environment just from one flight. They should bear in mind that we get that feeling everyday we fly.
Perhaps if you got pilots to give you copies of their rosters, flight duties, etc dating back a few years or just gave you a summary of their months work /weeks work . you could comapre the likes of say air berilin and thier national flag carrier, ba short haul easy jet and ryanair , virgin,aer lingus and ba longhaul,emerits, cathy, singapore.
you would need to look at them over a number of years.
would that be of any use to you?
what about if you could say get a member of the public to follow the waking routine and activity pattern of a pilot put them in a decompression chamber, put the pressure to equate to that of an aircraft, similar sights, noise ,vibration levels, give them mental tasks to carry out and see how they feel after a week.
People as passengers on longer flights normally get off the aircraft feeling tired from the inactivity and the aircraft environment just from one flight. They should bear in mind that we get that feeling everyday we fly.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London, UK
Age: 48
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Contact request
Hi there
I've sent further requests for information from about a dozen of you by private message - I'd be very grateful if you could get in touch as soon as possible please.
I'd also very much still like to hear from anybody else with specific, first-hand accounts of fatigue; incidents related to it; management responses to it; and your views of CAP371 / subpart Q / existing FTLs.
If there is anything which concerns you, something which you believe the public should know about, please don't assume somebody else will get in touch with me.
As ever, any information provided will be treated in the strictest confidence.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
[email protected]
+44 (0)7769 977665
I've sent further requests for information from about a dozen of you by private message - I'd be very grateful if you could get in touch as soon as possible please.
I'd also very much still like to hear from anybody else with specific, first-hand accounts of fatigue; incidents related to it; management responses to it; and your views of CAP371 / subpart Q / existing FTLs.
If there is anything which concerns you, something which you believe the public should know about, please don't assume somebody else will get in touch with me.
As ever, any information provided will be treated in the strictest confidence.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
[email protected]
+44 (0)7769 977665
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding working more than some years ago: I saw the proposed JAA annual duty limit is 2000 hours. I see that that the old Irish annual limit was 1780hrs. Thats an increase of 5 weeks more work. 2000hrs over a period of 47 weeks (allowing for leave, and a couple of other days off) = 42.5 hrs p.w. Why do we who operate in a closed tiny box, with reduced oxygen, with reduced humidity, with little or no physical motion worse than a prison cell for upto 12 hours stretches, with no regular break away from the work station, ever changing sleep patterns-sometimes at short notice-, changing time zones, constant deprivation of proper sleep, very reduced family enviroment, little chance of extra-work activities due no chance of achieving a stable roster with repetitive periods off, constant battering by hostile management,
why should we be subjected to a longer working week than those molli-coddled on the ground?
I've had it asked of me by crewing, when my duty has changed from a mid afternoon to a night period, "what's the problem with nights, you are a pilot?"
The self control exercised went beyond anything taught on a CRM course.
why should we be subjected to a longer working week than those molli-coddled on the ground?
I've had it asked of me by crewing, when my duty has changed from a mid afternoon to a night period, "what's the problem with nights, you are a pilot?"
The self control exercised went beyond anything taught on a CRM course.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my Company a Pilot (Now Retired) Refused a duty as he would have been up for 20 hrs before even taking off. Got a letter on his file (for 6 Mths) for his trouble.
Flight Safety? what's That!
Flight Safety? what's That!
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian, I don't know if this has been mooted already but I was just reflecting on your comment about pilots not reporting fatigue related incidents because of the so called "Blame Culture" within certain airlines. There is an anonymous reporting medium known as CHIRPS: Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme by which, by definition, anyone can report incidents without negative comeback. I'm certain that you would find fatigue related incidents reported here: http://www.chirp.co.uk/main/Aviation.htm
Good luck.
After a few minutes of looking I found this. Don't know if it's what you're looking for since there is no EVENT associated with it but it's interesting nonetheless:
From: Air Transport FEEDBACK 72 Issued Autumn 2004 page 6
REPORT TIMES
Article:
No particular event. I have concerns that my Company does not take the issue of pilot fatigue seriously. As far as I am aware CAP 371 INTENDS a rolling duty hour limit of 55 hours without the interference of the definition of a week. The Company I believe is moving towards a 60-hour rolling limit. The Company has introduced a fatigue survey in an effort to demonstrate its concern but at the same time allows no credit for the actual time conscientious pilots normally check in for a flight in order to obtain flight plans, weather etc and brief adequately. In particular no credit is given for training flights in this respect for briefing and debriefing. These problems are made worse by inadequate briefing facilities and very limited access to company and aircraft manuals which are shared on computers which cabin crew use for hotmail.
Comment:
CAP 371 - Fourth Edition, which must be incorporated in operators' Approved FTL schemes by not later than 1 April 2006, specifies that the maximum duty hours for flight crew, excepting helicopters, shall not exceed 55 hours in any consecutive seven days, except in specific circumstances involving unforeseen delays. CAA (SRG) is in discussions with the operator with a view to increasing the report time for crews undergoing line training.
Good luck.
After a few minutes of looking I found this. Don't know if it's what you're looking for since there is no EVENT associated with it but it's interesting nonetheless:
From: Air Transport FEEDBACK 72 Issued Autumn 2004 page 6
REPORT TIMES
Article:
No particular event. I have concerns that my Company does not take the issue of pilot fatigue seriously. As far as I am aware CAP 371 INTENDS a rolling duty hour limit of 55 hours without the interference of the definition of a week. The Company I believe is moving towards a 60-hour rolling limit. The Company has introduced a fatigue survey in an effort to demonstrate its concern but at the same time allows no credit for the actual time conscientious pilots normally check in for a flight in order to obtain flight plans, weather etc and brief adequately. In particular no credit is given for training flights in this respect for briefing and debriefing. These problems are made worse by inadequate briefing facilities and very limited access to company and aircraft manuals which are shared on computers which cabin crew use for hotmail.
Comment:
CAP 371 - Fourth Edition, which must be incorporated in operators' Approved FTL schemes by not later than 1 April 2006, specifies that the maximum duty hours for flight crew, excepting helicopters, shall not exceed 55 hours in any consecutive seven days, except in specific circumstances involving unforeseen delays. CAA (SRG) is in discussions with the operator with a view to increasing the report time for crews undergoing line training.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This one's a little more juicy:
From: Air Transport FEEDBACK 72 Issued Autumn 2004 page 6
ROSTER INSTABILITY
Article:
During the turnround at ### (Mediterranean destination) the aircraft was refuelled and boarded. I had a niggling doubt about the fuel load being wrong. The inbound and outbound flight times and distances were similar yet the fuel was much lower. After boarding and door closure I realised that the PLOG EZFW (Pilot Log Estimated Zero Fuel Weight) was 20 TONNES LIGHT. Why hadn't I noticed? Why had it taken so long to realise? Embarrassingly, the refueller had to be recalled after obtaining new figures. Off duty at UK base at 0100Z. The next day's duty had originally been SBY 1200-1800, this had changed to SBY 1600-2200 on check-in for the above flight and then again changed to a 1300Z ### (Mediterranean destination) on check-out. The next day on checking delays, I'm informed that I'm now doing a night ### (Canary Islands) at 1600Z leaving (again) no time for rest. The following day then became a rest day. Following the rest day, my rostered night sectors were again changed due to my high hours. This Company constantly changes rosters with no regard for fatigue. I put the above refuelling incident down to long term fatigue.
Comment:
An analysis of CHIRP reports on the topic of roster instability has shown a significant increase in 2003 and a further increase in the first nine months of this year. In some of the cases reported recently, individuals' duties were changed repeatedly from those originally rostered, often to maintain their flying/duty hours within the maximums permitted. The attention of CAA (SRG) FOD has been drawn to these rostering practices. Notwithstanding this, we are interested to confirm whether the increase in CHIRP reports received this year is indicative of an increasing problem of roster instability in some sectors of the industry, and would welcome additional reports/information on this issue.
From: Air Transport FEEDBACK 72 Issued Autumn 2004 page 6
ROSTER INSTABILITY
Article:
During the turnround at ### (Mediterranean destination) the aircraft was refuelled and boarded. I had a niggling doubt about the fuel load being wrong. The inbound and outbound flight times and distances were similar yet the fuel was much lower. After boarding and door closure I realised that the PLOG EZFW (Pilot Log Estimated Zero Fuel Weight) was 20 TONNES LIGHT. Why hadn't I noticed? Why had it taken so long to realise? Embarrassingly, the refueller had to be recalled after obtaining new figures. Off duty at UK base at 0100Z. The next day's duty had originally been SBY 1200-1800, this had changed to SBY 1600-2200 on check-in for the above flight and then again changed to a 1300Z ### (Mediterranean destination) on check-out. The next day on checking delays, I'm informed that I'm now doing a night ### (Canary Islands) at 1600Z leaving (again) no time for rest. The following day then became a rest day. Following the rest day, my rostered night sectors were again changed due to my high hours. This Company constantly changes rosters with no regard for fatigue. I put the above refuelling incident down to long term fatigue.
Comment:
An analysis of CHIRP reports on the topic of roster instability has shown a significant increase in 2003 and a further increase in the first nine months of this year. In some of the cases reported recently, individuals' duties were changed repeatedly from those originally rostered, often to maintain their flying/duty hours within the maximums permitted. The attention of CAA (SRG) FOD has been drawn to these rostering practices. Notwithstanding this, we are interested to confirm whether the increase in CHIRP reports received this year is indicative of an increasing problem of roster instability in some sectors of the industry, and would welcome additional reports/information on this issue.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Cold Soak,
Interesting posts. However the main point with all this is the lack of regulation for the gross uncertaintity for roster changes. Not only does this place alot of pressure on ones home life, it affects people by disturbing ones sleep patterns. Due to this short notice changes it makes the shiftwork component of the professional a hell of a lot worse.
Employers should be penalised with regards to these short notice roster changes (which seems to be the norm to cope with industry skill shortages and the bean counters ever present bottom line!). The best way to do it is not through money for the pilot in question, but through a flying hour penalty that allows the pilot to fly less hours for the month due to the disruption and maintain the equivalent flight pay and allowances.
Why should the pilot be disadvantaged through the obvious short comings of the rostering department and the company employment policies. Easier to have less pilots and stuff them around to the maximum to fill in the gaps left by the shortage of personnel!
Cheers
Interesting posts. However the main point with all this is the lack of regulation for the gross uncertaintity for roster changes. Not only does this place alot of pressure on ones home life, it affects people by disturbing ones sleep patterns. Due to this short notice changes it makes the shiftwork component of the professional a hell of a lot worse.
Employers should be penalised with regards to these short notice roster changes (which seems to be the norm to cope with industry skill shortages and the bean counters ever present bottom line!). The best way to do it is not through money for the pilot in question, but through a flying hour penalty that allows the pilot to fly less hours for the month due to the disruption and maintain the equivalent flight pay and allowances.
Why should the pilot be disadvantaged through the obvious short comings of the rostering department and the company employment policies. Easier to have less pilots and stuff them around to the maximum to fill in the gaps left by the shortage of personnel!
Cheers
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London, UK
Age: 48
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks
just to say thanks to everybody who's got in touch with me re this posting - I'm working my way through the responses and will be in touch.
Ian
Ian
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: guess!
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fatigue related accidents
US carriers.
18/8/93 American International DC-8. Guantanamo bay.
1/6/99 AA1420. Little Rock, AR.
6/7/02 Fedex B-727. Tallahassee, FL.
Also 5/96 Valujet in FL. (Maintenance personnel fatigue.)
Korean Air B-747 at Guam.
http://www.ntsb.gov/
18/8/93 American International DC-8. Guantanamo bay.
1/6/99 AA1420. Little Rock, AR.
6/7/02 Fedex B-727. Tallahassee, FL.
Also 5/96 Valujet in FL. (Maintenance personnel fatigue.)
Korean Air B-747 at Guam.
http://www.ntsb.gov/
