BBC investigation into fatigue, working culture & safety standards
Perhaps Ian is busy following up all the leads and documents suggested in the posts here?
Whatever programme you do produce Ian, please please don't dumb it down for the benefit of your 'expected' audience. The BBC has noticeably lowered its sights with respect to target audiences with a lot of stuff recently. (Even the Breakfast news on TV has become like GMTV - who gives a **** about whether some has-been soap star is doing well on some pathetic dancing or skating TV show. Inane, trivial nonsense!).
If you can get your head round the issues then please present them clearly and succintly but don't dumb down. Don't assume that your viewing public won't understand what your digging into, give (most of) them some credit for being intellectual and let them make up their own minds. The 'Sun' and 'News of the World' readers won't watch anyway so don't pitch it at that level with some sensationalist clap-trap. If this really is about investigating the aviation industry then remember the intellectuall level of the pilots and others here who are giving you the steers you have asked for.
And finally, to the folk who cited the MK halifax accident much further up this thread, remember it is easy to point the finger at operators who register outside Europe. However, this from that very accident report:
"Italy - After the accident, an Italian-registered company was found to have an approved duty time limitation scheme with a maximum allowable duty period for an augmented crew, consisting of three pilots (in an aircraft equipped with an inertial navigation system), of 24 hours and a maximum of six sectors."
This stuff can happen under you very own nose.
Whatever programme you do produce Ian, please please don't dumb it down for the benefit of your 'expected' audience. The BBC has noticeably lowered its sights with respect to target audiences with a lot of stuff recently. (Even the Breakfast news on TV has become like GMTV - who gives a **** about whether some has-been soap star is doing well on some pathetic dancing or skating TV show. Inane, trivial nonsense!).
If you can get your head round the issues then please present them clearly and succintly but don't dumb down. Don't assume that your viewing public won't understand what your digging into, give (most of) them some credit for being intellectual and let them make up their own minds. The 'Sun' and 'News of the World' readers won't watch anyway so don't pitch it at that level with some sensationalist clap-trap. If this really is about investigating the aviation industry then remember the intellectuall level of the pilots and others here who are giving you the steers you have asked for.
And finally, to the folk who cited the MK halifax accident much further up this thread, remember it is easy to point the finger at operators who register outside Europe. However, this from that very accident report:
"Italy - After the accident, an Italian-registered company was found to have an approved duty time limitation scheme with a maximum allowable duty period for an augmented crew, consisting of three pilots (in an aircraft equipped with an inertial navigation system), of 24 hours and a maximum of six sectors."
This stuff can happen under you very own nose.
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Update
Hi all
Just to let you know that I am currently sifting through all of the replies and posts made. I'm also working on another story at the moment, so it's taking a little longer than I'd have liked.
As for how and when anything will be aired -- it's too early to say, and a great deal more information and research is needed.
Best wishes
Ian
Just to let you know that I am currently sifting through all of the replies and posts made. I'm also working on another story at the moment, so it's taking a little longer than I'd have liked.
As for how and when anything will be aired -- it's too early to say, and a great deal more information and research is needed.
Best wishes
Ian
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Request for more information from BBC News
Dear all
Many of you will be familiar with me by now, but for the benefit of everybody else please let me introduce myself: My name's Ian Shoesmith and I'm a BBC journalist researching safety standards in the UK and Irish aviation industry.
I've received some extremely interesting responses which are really helping to build up a picture of what it's like for some professionals working in the industry today.
Naturally, I'm very aware of your concerns about speaking to journalists without authorisation from your employer. Rest assured that we take this very seriously and will respect any request to speak confidentially. Its something we do quite often, and the BBC's reputation stands or falls on the way in which we treat our contributors. We do not disclose details of those people who have spoken to us 'off the record'.
To date, a couple of themes have emerged: FTLs and fatigue; and workplace culture (whether crews feel comfortable raising concerns, admitting mistakes etc).
I would be very grateful if those who got in touch with me before would do so again - and use the same "codeword". There have been several of you, and I have some follow up questions.
Equally, I'm keen to find out whether these are the only people who have concerns about long flying hours, fatigue and difficulty in reporting fatigue. If you have personal experience, please get in touch, with as many details as you feel you can - such as dates, and whether it put you or others at risk. If you leave a contact number or email address I can get back to you directly and explain more about what we are doing.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
[email protected]
+44 (0)7769 977665
Many of you will be familiar with me by now, but for the benefit of everybody else please let me introduce myself: My name's Ian Shoesmith and I'm a BBC journalist researching safety standards in the UK and Irish aviation industry.
I've received some extremely interesting responses which are really helping to build up a picture of what it's like for some professionals working in the industry today.
Naturally, I'm very aware of your concerns about speaking to journalists without authorisation from your employer. Rest assured that we take this very seriously and will respect any request to speak confidentially. Its something we do quite often, and the BBC's reputation stands or falls on the way in which we treat our contributors. We do not disclose details of those people who have spoken to us 'off the record'.
To date, a couple of themes have emerged: FTLs and fatigue; and workplace culture (whether crews feel comfortable raising concerns, admitting mistakes etc).
I would be very grateful if those who got in touch with me before would do so again - and use the same "codeword". There have been several of you, and I have some follow up questions.
Equally, I'm keen to find out whether these are the only people who have concerns about long flying hours, fatigue and difficulty in reporting fatigue. If you have personal experience, please get in touch, with as many details as you feel you can - such as dates, and whether it put you or others at risk. If you leave a contact number or email address I can get back to you directly and explain more about what we are doing.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
[email protected]
+44 (0)7769 977665
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'Its something we do quite often, and the BBC's reputation stands or falls on the way in which we treat our contributors.'
Are you serious? It's gone...
[URL="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2073592843640256739"]
Are you serious? It's gone...
[URL="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2073592843640256739"]
Surely the fact that you are afraid of your identity being discovered is proof that something rotten is going on in certain airlines. Here is your chance to stand up and do something about it instead of cowering in the corner and hoping everything will magically fix itself.Here is an opportunity to do more than bitch in the bar or cockpit. If you are working for certain airlines where you know, as professionals, that what is being done is wrong then help shine some light on the darkness. 
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...and what about water bottles?
Hi there Shoey,
just one thing I've been wondering about... while I can see how a programme about the health & safety implications of fatigue in the flying industry could be of public interest, I am a bit puzzled by the lack of reaction by you or any other journalists regarding the various allegations which have been made respect to the changes last summer to "security procedures" across (well, more or less) the continent.
Surely wouldn't that be of much more concern and relevance to the public at large, flying as well as non-flying, than the story you are currently following? I am not suggesting that you start a new investigation, or blaming anyone for not doing it, or anything like that. I am genuinely wondering why has this particular subject not generated any noticeable interest amongst your colleagues in the press?
/lh2
just one thing I've been wondering about... while I can see how a programme about the health & safety implications of fatigue in the flying industry could be of public interest, I am a bit puzzled by the lack of reaction by you or any other journalists regarding the various allegations which have been made respect to the changes last summer to "security procedures" across (well, more or less) the continent.
Surely wouldn't that be of much more concern and relevance to the public at large, flying as well as non-flying, than the story you are currently following? I am not suggesting that you start a new investigation, or blaming anyone for not doing it, or anything like that. I am genuinely wondering why has this particular subject not generated any noticeable interest amongst your colleagues in the press?
/lh2
Paxing All Over The World
yesTAM
There is a fascinating example of this in the BBC today. Looking at the undercover surveillance of Barclays Bank.
The reporter working undercover in the bank says: One manager admitted that the bank's "Additions" accounts are one of the "most mis-sold" products in the bank. Additions' accounts can cost around £150 a year, in exchange for which the customer gets a range of benefits.
[edit]
Just a few weeks ago Barclays announced record profits of £7 billion.
In response to our allegations Barclays Bank said: "We are not in the business of encouraging or condoning mis-selling or inappropriate sales in any way whatsoever, and we stamp on that when we find it because it is completely inappropriate behaviour for a bank. We pride ourselves on being a responsible institution that puts its customers first." It added: "People know we are a good bank, we're trustworthy, we do the right thing, we treat people with respect.
Yes, the big boys will "primly sit on its hands and quote its manuals to the judge and there won't be anyone who will tell him otherwise."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6476155.stm
Yup! The company will primly sit on its hands and quote its manuals to the judge and there won't be anyone who will tell him otherwise....about what really happens.
The reporter working undercover in the bank says: One manager admitted that the bank's "Additions" accounts are one of the "most mis-sold" products in the bank. Additions' accounts can cost around £150 a year, in exchange for which the customer gets a range of benefits.
[edit]
Just a few weeks ago Barclays announced record profits of £7 billion.
In response to our allegations Barclays Bank said: "We are not in the business of encouraging or condoning mis-selling or inappropriate sales in any way whatsoever, and we stamp on that when we find it because it is completely inappropriate behaviour for a bank. We pride ourselves on being a responsible institution that puts its customers first." It added: "People know we are a good bank, we're trustworthy, we do the right thing, we treat people with respect.
Yes, the big boys will "primly sit on its hands and quote its manuals to the judge and there won't be anyone who will tell him otherwise."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6476155.stm
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Channel 4 did one of these 'revelation' type programs already, and it was an embarrassment.
RTE television also did a piece on an investigative news program called Prime Time in which several Ryanair pilots gave anonymous interviews. The reaction from the public and the print media in Ireland was to call the whole story an invention because the whistle blowers kept their faces hidden.
I wish Mr.Shoesmith good luck, but sadly doubt any TV program would carry weight, or make any real difference. It'll take dead bodies - and even then it's a slim chance things would change.
RTE television also did a piece on an investigative news program called Prime Time in which several Ryanair pilots gave anonymous interviews. The reaction from the public and the print media in Ireland was to call the whole story an invention because the whistle blowers kept their faces hidden.
I wish Mr.Shoesmith good luck, but sadly doubt any TV program would carry weight, or make any real difference. It'll take dead bodies - and even then it's a slim chance things would change.
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Hi Just thought I would like to add my bit,
What amazes me is that such great (worthwhile) attention is given to the issue without any thought of other aviation professionals. I can only speak from a maintenance perspective and I do not want to create an 'us and them' mentality at all. These issues for the pilots are more than valid and require urgent attention from the authorities. However engineering is nothing but a discrace in terms of excessive working hours and so forth. It is quite common for guys to constantly work 70 hour weeks. So what I am saying it is all well and good having well rested and CRM compliant professionals in the flight deck, but if the guy rigging your primary flight controls is in his 18th hour on the job and constantly works excessive hours and severly fatigued and stressed it adds to the safety equation.
I for one feel that aircraft engineering is in a major crisis in terms of severe skill and experience shortages. Let's face it who wants to do it when you live at work, train for years and years for very little.To train a pilot and put him in the right seat just a couple of years an engineer that is working on large aircraft 10 years is not enough. It is important to note that maintenance errors are on the rise where mechanical failure overcome flight into terrain (CFIT) as the biggest airline killer in 2003, according to Flight International magazines 2003 annual safety review and a significant number of these mechanical failures resulted from maintenance mistakes (Learmount, 2004). It was easy in the past to blame the pilot in airline accidents as he was not around to defend him/herself, however there is evidence that maintenance related errors may have had a major bearing on previous well known cases.
Sorry for rambling just thought I would widen the scope of the discussion.
What amazes me is that such great (worthwhile) attention is given to the issue without any thought of other aviation professionals. I can only speak from a maintenance perspective and I do not want to create an 'us and them' mentality at all. These issues for the pilots are more than valid and require urgent attention from the authorities. However engineering is nothing but a discrace in terms of excessive working hours and so forth. It is quite common for guys to constantly work 70 hour weeks. So what I am saying it is all well and good having well rested and CRM compliant professionals in the flight deck, but if the guy rigging your primary flight controls is in his 18th hour on the job and constantly works excessive hours and severly fatigued and stressed it adds to the safety equation.
I for one feel that aircraft engineering is in a major crisis in terms of severe skill and experience shortages. Let's face it who wants to do it when you live at work, train for years and years for very little.To train a pilot and put him in the right seat just a couple of years an engineer that is working on large aircraft 10 years is not enough. It is important to note that maintenance errors are on the rise where mechanical failure overcome flight into terrain (CFIT) as the biggest airline killer in 2003, according to Flight International magazines 2003 annual safety review and a significant number of these mechanical failures resulted from maintenance mistakes (Learmount, 2004). It was easy in the past to blame the pilot in airline accidents as he was not around to defend him/herself, however there is evidence that maintenance related errors may have had a major bearing on previous well known cases.
Sorry for rambling just thought I would widen the scope of the discussion.
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You bring up here a very valid point "Orangputi", and, as lately mentioned by "FlightDetent" on another topic, there have been occasions when flight controls, after maintenance, were linked back ... at the opposite.
It is one thing to do a mistake, but it is another not to follow the procedure which should allow you to catch it.
... Is it coming from overconfidence, nonchalance, ... or tireness ?
It is one thing to do a mistake, but it is another not to follow the procedure which should allow you to catch it.
... Is it coming from overconfidence, nonchalance, ... or tireness ?
Last edited by CONF iture; 25th Mar 2007 at 02:44.
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update
Just to say thanks very much to everybody who's got in touch with me regarding fatigue, how much of a problem you find it to be, and how your airline deals with it. A number of you have given me some very interesting information, which I'm examing as we speak. Still very keen to speak to others though, on the usual number +44 (0)7769 977665, email [email protected], or private message. Will obviously maintain strictest of confidence.
Best wishes
Ian
Best wishes
Ian
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dear ian!
great that you are looking in to this,mayby you would like to investigate the role of cabin crew in air safety aswell.
currently several airlines fly to uk(mainly from middle east)
with cabin staff doing over 100per month,and definitely more than 900per year.
minimum rest at base,travel to and from work or "reporting" time not included!
and during the mont of ramadan,fasting..no water, no food..that is your captain on aproach to heathrow!
great that you are looking in to this,mayby you would like to investigate the role of cabin crew in air safety aswell.
currently several airlines fly to uk(mainly from middle east)
with cabin staff doing over 100per month,and definitely more than 900per year.
minimum rest at base,travel to and from work or "reporting" time not included!
and during the mont of ramadan,fasting..no water, no food..that is your captain on aproach to heathrow!
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Sorry about my late reply.
I regards to your comments. I sadly do not think it is over-confidence or bravado, quite the opposite (this is again in a maintenance perspective). The skill shortages, reduced training times (imagine 4-5 weeks for an entire 777 course with engine). What is being created is an over worked (excessive hours due skill shortages) inexperienced group of professionals. These guys are thrust in the deep end making decisions on airworthiness in which often they are not ready for. I may sound like an old BA engineer or Qantas engineer (which I am) but quite frankly the training now is nowhere near the depth and strength of past days. Also with regards to digital aircraft it breeds digital thinking, in that the ability to troubleshoot and think laterally is lost, the analogue aircraft allowed this.
Sorry I know it is off the track of a pilot forum, but airworthiness issues such as these should concern our guys in the flight deck as it is the passengers and their necks on the line at the end of the day!
I remember telling a pilot before a test flight after a maintenance check that I was not coming with him ''sorry I dont do test flights anymore" and he just looked at me grim faced!
Cheers
I regards to your comments. I sadly do not think it is over-confidence or bravado, quite the opposite (this is again in a maintenance perspective). The skill shortages, reduced training times (imagine 4-5 weeks for an entire 777 course with engine). What is being created is an over worked (excessive hours due skill shortages) inexperienced group of professionals. These guys are thrust in the deep end making decisions on airworthiness in which often they are not ready for. I may sound like an old BA engineer or Qantas engineer (which I am) but quite frankly the training now is nowhere near the depth and strength of past days. Also with regards to digital aircraft it breeds digital thinking, in that the ability to troubleshoot and think laterally is lost, the analogue aircraft allowed this.
Sorry I know it is off the track of a pilot forum, but airworthiness issues such as these should concern our guys in the flight deck as it is the passengers and their necks on the line at the end of the day!
I remember telling a pilot before a test flight after a maintenance check that I was not coming with him ''sorry I dont do test flights anymore" and he just looked at me grim faced!
Cheers
Paxing All Over The World
Orangputi did you stop going on test flights because you had had a bad experience or because mgmt had stopped you? Perhaps it was 'not productive' and they need you to work on the next machine? i.e. Money
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I feel sorry Orangputi I was not understood the way I wanted to.
I probably did not express it correctly, ... my mistake.
So just to mention I absolutely share your concern, and talking with you guys is always very instructive.
To the moderator:
I would appreciate you let us know the reason you did edit my last post ?
It was just a legitimate questioning on the BBC supposed integrity, in relation to the early Selec66 post and its link.
I probably did not express it correctly, ... my mistake.
So just to mention I absolutely share your concern, and talking with you guys is always very instructive.
To the moderator:
I would appreciate you let us know the reason you did edit my last post ?
It was just a legitimate questioning on the BBC supposed integrity, in relation to the early Selec66 post and its link.
Never, Ever e-mail from work what you don't want your employer to see
Just a reminder that workplace e-mails are commonly archived and can be searched.
Also your employer can at any time decide to examine the data on your workplace computer.
Any discovery of communications to reporters without approval of the higher ups is not good for your career; so, do it from home or an internet cafe.
Also your employer can at any time decide to examine the data on your workplace computer.
Any discovery of communications to reporters without approval of the higher ups is not good for your career; so, do it from home or an internet cafe.
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Concerning fatique among Engineers, it is not so bad in my current job (an Eurpean low cost carrier). We have a second shift, which can take over when we go home and they make sure that we don't exceed regular working hours by too much. Also this airline's quality assurance department is quite strict and correct (at least for engineers).
It was really bad with a previous employer, a big American cargo airline. Since they were only flying at night, we didn't have a day shift.
They also had the policy "who finds a snag fixes it", no matter how long it took. For them paying overtime was cheaper than having a standby day shift in place. I remember on several occasions having worked 30+ hous shifts with rarely a break inbetween.
Obviously the working hours directive applies to us too, but it seems that pilots stick more together than us engineers. At least whereever I worked before, there were always some mercenary types with a contractor mentality for whom any overtime was good, and who liked to show off by how long they could work ("Somebody has to do it!")
Obviously if you refused to work these overlong shifts, the management would say "if this guy can do it, you can as well".
Though EASA rules say that if you feel unwell to work, you are not allowed to work, you better do not do it too often, because else the boss will find a way to get rid of you.
IMO it is just the same as having pressure put on to pencilwhip snags, at some point you'll have to make a stand, but the lack of solidarity in our profession, mainly through the mercenary types. makes it much harder, because in the end the boss will often find somebody who is willing to break the rules, just to get the plane out and save the company $$$.
Also, aircraft maintence is one of the few professions, where the good workers are being punishes by being called in for AOGs and overtime. It is rarely the sloppy, lazy workers who get called in if a plane goes AOG,but those who have proven that they can troubleshoot and fix problem efficiently.
So the lazy guy get their weekend off, while the good guy has to come in and work.
It was really bad with a previous employer, a big American cargo airline. Since they were only flying at night, we didn't have a day shift.
They also had the policy "who finds a snag fixes it", no matter how long it took. For them paying overtime was cheaper than having a standby day shift in place. I remember on several occasions having worked 30+ hous shifts with rarely a break inbetween.
Obviously the working hours directive applies to us too, but it seems that pilots stick more together than us engineers. At least whereever I worked before, there were always some mercenary types with a contractor mentality for whom any overtime was good, and who liked to show off by how long they could work ("Somebody has to do it!")
Obviously if you refused to work these overlong shifts, the management would say "if this guy can do it, you can as well".
Though EASA rules say that if you feel unwell to work, you are not allowed to work, you better do not do it too often, because else the boss will find a way to get rid of you.
IMO it is just the same as having pressure put on to pencilwhip snags, at some point you'll have to make a stand, but the lack of solidarity in our profession, mainly through the mercenary types. makes it much harder, because in the end the boss will often find somebody who is willing to break the rules, just to get the plane out and save the company $$$.
Also, aircraft maintence is one of the few professions, where the good workers are being punishes by being called in for AOGs and overtime. It is rarely the sloppy, lazy workers who get called in if a plane goes AOG,but those who have proven that they can troubleshoot and fix problem efficiently.
So the lazy guy get their weekend off, while the good guy has to come in and work.
Last edited by MD11Engineer; 29th Mar 2007 at 18:30. Reason: Sentence forgetten, which would give part of the text an unintended meaning
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Ian
I think one of the problems that the flight time limitations highlight is the lack of any consultation with pilots or crews. Even given the limits as they are now shouldn't be extended. Studies have shown that cummulative rest deprevation can result in reaction and cognitive functions equivilant to that of someone who is intoxicated. So at the end of a week of long days the folks at the front are about as sharp as the locals spilling out of the nightclubs at 2 in the morning. If you want an objective view and to make a real difference then why not enlist the help of some locost pilots, conduct a study backed by some recognised medical authority, CAA Medical at Gatwick perhaps, strap them up to some machines. do some cognitive tests before, during and after there flights. follow there progress for some weeks, then come to some conclusions. You may then end up with a hard hitting item which may lead to a change. Please do this subject some justice, not like the channel 4 documentary which was a golden oppertunity missed.
I hope you are looking at a serious item that will encorage worthy discussion and bring about change , not just something that after one days exposure will be regarded as yesterdays news.
Good luck!
I think one of the problems that the flight time limitations highlight is the lack of any consultation with pilots or crews. Even given the limits as they are now shouldn't be extended. Studies have shown that cummulative rest deprevation can result in reaction and cognitive functions equivilant to that of someone who is intoxicated. So at the end of a week of long days the folks at the front are about as sharp as the locals spilling out of the nightclubs at 2 in the morning. If you want an objective view and to make a real difference then why not enlist the help of some locost pilots, conduct a study backed by some recognised medical authority, CAA Medical at Gatwick perhaps, strap them up to some machines. do some cognitive tests before, during and after there flights. follow there progress for some weeks, then come to some conclusions. You may then end up with a hard hitting item which may lead to a change. Please do this subject some justice, not like the channel 4 documentary which was a golden oppertunity missed.
I hope you are looking at a serious item that will encorage worthy discussion and bring about change , not just something that after one days exposure will be regarded as yesterdays news.
Good luck!