BBC investigation into fatigue, working culture & safety standards

[The Real Slim Shady]

One of the biggest scheduling problems is the requirement, exercised by some carriers - not necessarliy the LoCos - to be "flexible". What that amounts to is having your schedule changed continuously.

At Ryanair the flight crew work to 3 different schedules; either 5 on 3 off, or 5 on 4 off, or 5 on 5 off. Disruption or change is minimal and whilst sleeping prior to the first of 5 early duties is always difficult ( regardless of carrier) once you are in the "pattern" it is not generally a problem.

I always found 3 earlies / 3 lates / 2 off a much worse pattern and far more fatiguing.

[An Paddy Eile]

Statement in the Irish Times saying the Minister for Transport has concerns about recent approaches made by Ryanair.

He said he would only call for a formal investigation by the Irish Aviation Authority when he has all of the facts.

Seems we may get our witch hunt after all...

[CR-ASC]

Ian
Just a little point regarding duty time, rest time, etc.
When I started working in this industry more than 20 years ago,
it was considered duty time 1 hour before flight (actually the reporting
time), nowadays decreased to 45 minutes.
Also before, duty terminated 30 minutes after stoping engines, now duty finishes when parking brake is set for parking (by ACARS), that means that shuting down the aircraft now is not duty, having to report snags regarding aircraft status is not duty, reporting any event reagrding the flight is not duty, doing the shutdown checklist and parking/securing checklist is not duty.
All this means that imediately after spoping the aircraft I am already resting, resting doing the checklist , doing afterflight work, of course driving home, etc. As well after reaching home I am imediatelly sleping geting ready for the next duty.Of course I will have plenty of time according the regulations 101/2 hours is a lot.
Just one thing, this is in Europe not any 3rd world country.
If you have the chance please ask our european parliament members what do they think about this.

[fmgc]

Ian,

I have said this to you before, when it comes to safety standards do not categorise LoCos in one section. EasyJet and Ryanair are two very different airlines working under different sets of rules.

Also the BA shorthaul guys work bloody hard and to much less restrictive scheduling terms than some LoCos. Also don't just concentrate on 900 hours a year, some guys may only do 650 but 450 of those are in the 6 summer months (charter airlines) and into some very very challenging airfields (Greek Islands) in the middle of the night doing their thrid night in a row.

This is a very very complex subject with many many variables that would be so easy for the lay person to misrepresent and for other lay people to misinterpet.

[RAFAT]

Ian,

On the first thread you started on this subject you may recall initially getting a bit of a rough ride from some members of our community. Thankfully that has turned around, but articles such as the SUN article on LCY burst tyre incident do nothing to endear us to the sensationalist crap that some journalists spout. This article might give you an insight as to why your initial enquiries were treated with such scepticism.

There is an email address at the foot of the above article for the journalist concerned. I suggest using it.....I have!

[HKG Phooey]

FTL's

The FTL's that are available today are based on rules made 50 odd years ago: some changes since then:

RVSM airspace...
The terminal areas round the airports are alot more congested,
......so is the airspace...
You can no longer drive to work and park next to your aircraft..
More NOTAMS/weather to check.
The old rules were there to get you back when older A/C were a lot less reliable.....
Slot delays....

Alot of study has been done on long haul ops but not for short haul... what has been done some operators ignore because it will cost them money!

The rules need to change.......

[Pilot Pete]

I would like to add about 'extra' duties that have crept into the working day of flight and cabin crew, which mean reporting earlier and reducing rest.

They have been mentioned already, but things like airport operators moving the staff car parks further away so that the passengers can use the ones by the terminal building. Then they put on a shuttle bus to ferry the staff to the terminal(s). Take Manchester as an example. Staff West car park is a brisk 15-20 minute walk from T2. The car park is vast and depending on time of day it can take you 5 minutes to find a space, which of course will be the furthest possible distance from the car park entrance. A bus service to the terminals is provided, but guess what? It doesn't stop at T2 - it goes to the railway station (10 minutes walk to T2 in the overhead walkway), then on to T3/T1. It stops there for a certain period before returning to the car park via T2. So if it isn't pouring down most people will walk. Like I said, good 15-20 minute walk to the terminal and then you have to actually get to the crew room, which can be another 5 minutes. So you plan to arrive in the car park at report time -30 minutes to be on the safe side? Well if you do that there is a good chance that on occassions you may be late if you have to wait for the bus!

Add to that the pre-flight duties which include synchronising a company laptop to get the latest updates to manuals etc, adn then as mentioned by others printing off your own papaerwork as the true dispatchers were axed years ago to save money. This paperwork can take 15-20 minutes to get (depending on just how 'good' the companies IT systems and network are). Then you have to read and inwardly digest all the info as part of your flight planning. Add to that the fact that some airlines have removed the Jepp/ Aerad hard copies (as they are all available over the inetrnet), it can take some time now to view your destination/alternates and find the operating minima if the weather is marginal or a factor. If I needed to look up one destination, one en-route alternate and up three destination alternates, this would take me about 10-15 minutes using the internet and the software available. Our report time is STD -1hr and that is pushing it. Add in the fact that we are supposed to be at the aircraft at STD-30minutes, and at a big airport that can require 10-15 minutes walk or possibly even a bus ride and you can see that reporting at STD-45, with bad weather forecast can mean that you have no chance of getting away on time. So what do pilots do? They turn up earlier than report time to get the job done. None of this counts towards duty. ANY pre-flight duties should be accounted for in the duty day. Are pilots making a rod for their own backs? You bet they are. Why? Because they tend to be professionals who take a pride in their job and doing a good job, especially a SAFE one, so are willing to stretch to ensure this. Trouble is this action in itself can start eroding margins elsewhere when it comes to fatigue.

PP

[Wig Wag]

Ian, what type of coverage are you intending and when?

Has there been insufficient response to justify a programme?

[PAXboy]

It is usual in modern TV / Radio documentary that the timing and scope of the programme will be set after initial research has been done. However, the timing might be six months in the future although it can often be less.

If the reporter is able to follow the line of enquiry suggested in this forum, then there is a VERY considerable amount to do. It is possible that this means that the budget allocated will not do and so the programme can be postponed, cancelled or the remit changed.

In this regard, they are just like any commercial organisation and will change as resources demand. The days of any news reporting organisation having open ended research on a project are long gone. It would be fascinating to know what would happen to a 'Thalidomide' or 'Watergate 'these days. That said, organisations and governments now 'leak' in a way that they did not 30/40 years ago.

I would expect that we shall not hear an answer to Wig Wag's question until it is time for broadcast.

[mill island]

I found this plain language explanation of pilot work and fatigue easy to follow.........

http://www.ialpa.net/pressrelease/pr...006-09-12.html

[winkle]

As mentioned earlier we are professionals and also take pride in our work. To that end we should be aiming to arrive in the crew room as close to report time as possible and work back from that time so that you have a "car park" arrival time, then if the bus is slow or out of sync and you arrive a few minutes late then that will have a knock on effect, thats life for everyone its either that or we have beds in the crew room (come to think of it quite a nice idea if you know what i mean) As for stripping away the hired help and relying on laptops for everything - well big mistake. I am no computer buff but from the laptops i have had the more that goes in the slower they are, again adding to pre flight frustrations.
If we cut corners by arriving too early then nothing will ever be sorted out if you think its good to get in early how would it stand up in court if an incident/accident occurred and it transpired you had been in say an hour earlier than you should.
IMOH either tell ops you want an earlier report time because of unforseen circumstances ( wx , atc probs that you can pre-empt) or always aim to arrive on time and only depart when you are fully ready to go.

the real world is on the other side of the window......

[shoey1976]

my investigation

hi all
just spotted a couple of posts asking about the progress of my investigation: I've been working on another story since Thursday, and am away from the office with only limited internet access.
Will be back in on Wednesday. Can be contacted on mobile [phone] in the meantime though.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith
BBC News
[email protected]

[RatherBeFlying]

I would suggest you look into the Comair accident where the crew attempted an early morning takeoff from the wrong runway. There is some information on the crew's sleep/wake times in the previous days and perhaps more can be extracted from the NTSB before the report comes out.

Another current example where fatigue seems to be a factor is the C-5 Galaxy accident in Dover, Delaware.

Both accidents are amply discussed in these pages and offer considerable material.

[upandoffmyside]

fatigue & safety

The development of part-time commercial flying could also do with high-lighting.


Since 9/11 part-time flying was introduced in many UK airlines as a way of mitigating pilot redundancies.


These schemes are still in place today in many UK airlines. Such schemes commonly offer the chance to work at somewhere between 50% and 100% of the normal number of days worked per month. 50% and 75% are the usual flavours offered.



In a highly skill-based profession, if you mention this fact to joe public they usually think it rather odd and muse on its wisdom....


If you ask professional pilots who have been lucky enough to take it up, usually after many years of waiting, why they have sought this path, most of them will tell you that the rostering was killing them, gave no quality of life, and turned you in to a fairly brain dead zombie.


The good UK employers probably only have a few percent of their pilots on part time with not many on the the waiting list, but the not so good may have around 5 - 10% part time with pilots waiting years for the opportunity.


Crap London airports with dismal staff parking & buses, four sector days in very busy airspace, minimal turnarounds with no rest time, 20 sector weeks, repetitive earlies, rostered to FDP limits nearly always, min rest always, and a strong expectation from management that you will exercise discretion always to keep the show on the road - are all strong factors here.


One day the men in suits in the Gatwick grey monolith might sit up and take notice, but so far they seem very good at hiding in their bunker since loco arrived in town .


When was the last time you had the opportunity to tell a CAA Ops Inspector what it's really like on the line ?


It is somewhat telling that in most advertisments in "Flight International" for CAA Operations Inspectors the job is sold to potential candidates with a description of the much better quality of life that can be expected while working for the state aviation regulator than for a commercial airline.

That's marvelous and good luck to them - they deserve it.

But it never seems to dawn on the CAA dimwits - who has created this situation in the first place ? , and who has the authority to do something about it ?


CAP371 may be better than others abroad.


But it has little relevance to high intensity short haul operations today and does absolutely nothing to address the need and right for UK commercial pilots to have a decent quality of life outside of work - just like CAA Flight Ops Inspectors.

[RAFAT]

If you ask professional pilots who have been lucky enough to take it up, (part time) usually after many years of waiting, why they have sought this path, most of them will tell you that the rostering was killing them, gave no quality of life, and turned you in to a fairly brain dead zombie.

Spot on, that's exactly why I did it!

CAP371 may be better than others abroad. But it has little relevance to high intensity short haul operations today and does absolutely nothing to address the need and right for UK commercial pilots to have a decent quality of life outside of work.

Spot on again.

[RAT 5]

Ian,

You may like to do some research into this not insignificant matter.

In the early 90's John Major was PM and Niel Kinnock was EU commissioner for transport. There were proclomations about the 'Social Charter' & Working Time Directives' from Brussels. For employees rules were introduced about such issues as:

* volume/space at each work station for an individual,
* contolled working enviroment, i.e. temperature, humidity, noise etc.
* working time/rest time balance. A break from your work station every XYZ minutes. A lunch break etc.

There were many more items included; it would be easy to find out the publication.
It was recognised that Public Transport could not redesign its vehicles and industry overnight, so it was given a 'SHORT TERM' dispensation to come up with proposals how to change its working practices to comply with the spirit of the 2 EU proclomations.

In the meantime they were required to introduce compensation schemes to their employees. This was likely to be of the form of more time off (rest time) between duties, or shorter duty periods. Flight crews work in cramped conditions, low humidity & oxygen, higher radiation levels, no rest areas or breaks from work/duty, ever changing sleep patterns etc. etc.

NO compenstaion scheme was ever introduced. (I even brought this up with my local CAA and they agreed, but were not interested.)

In mid-90's Kinnock and the EU commission became irritated that nothing had been done by the airlines and said they wanted it sorted PDQ. Proposals about how to change working practices towards the T's & C's improvements for the general work force had not been forth coming. Indeed NOTHING had been done. Afterall, flight crew are normal salaried employees. We come to work, do a fixed job, go home at the end of the shift and get paid. We are not managers who spend all day at the office and work until it is finished. We have a planned duty day; start & finish. If necessary we do extend to get the job done, but it is not the norm.

The unions had done nothing, the airlines had done nothing and the politicians had done nothing. (I don't know what happend in other public transport industries). EU commission was running out of patience. The proposed introduction and planning of common JAA FTL's was a diversion during this period.

It looked like Kinnock was going to demand action after so many years of none. However, the EU commission then resigned over other issues. The whole matter was forgotten by everyone, even the unions, and especially by the airlines. The late 90's saw the rise & rise of the LoCo's who, rather than introduce better working practices as per the EU guidelines, started to maximise the old rules and turned getting 'blood out of a stone' and a 'pound of flesh' into a science. For commercial survival reasons this sttitude filtered out across the industry to all carriers. Everything became maximised, everywhere.

So, here we are today. Conditions are worsening; quality of life is reducing; I have my own opinions about standards of training and operation, but I'm not sure they have improved as they should have; etc. etc. (one question for another topic is what pilots think about the general lowering of hours till command being lowered from the common 5000 in 80's to 3000 nowadays.)

If you investigate why those EU edicts from the early 90's were never enacted, and instead the industry moved in the opposite direction regarding employees working conditions, then you will have a real story. It will not be based on emotions & opinions influenced by who a pilot works for and what type of flying they do; it will be based on facts. Fact that things should have got better under an EU edikct, but instead became worse.

To illustrate the point, I have received an EU statutory instrument about aircrew (pilots & cabin crew) working conditions. It lays out how much work we can do and how much time off/holiday we must have etc. etc. We can do 2000hours pa. With 4 weeks holiday (hardly any compenstaion for the amount of time we spend away from home) 1 weeks public holidays, we can be on duty for 47 weeks. This averages at 42.5 hours per week i.e. 5% more than the norm. Consdering the enviroment we work in and the ever changing sleep pattern, and considering that EU edict 16 years ago, this begs a question.

WHY? Why was that edict never actioned but ignored and then forgotten; and WHY, now, have the proposals even gone in the opposite direction to general improvements?

Find the answer to that and print it.

[winkle]

MONEY
Maximise profits, squeeze as much as you can from it then discard it.

people included!

[MD80rookie]

Maybe not exactly what this journalist is looking for, but an interesting aspect is why the FTL's differ somewhat from country to country. Despite JAA/EASA, this seems to be impossible to agree upon.

I'm under the swedish regulations, known as the most strict in europe when it comes to daily FTL's. Are we more prone to fatigue than our german, british or spanish colleagues?

MD80Rookie

[shoey1976]

Hello again
I'm sure that regular viewers of the site will have come across my previous three threads.
I am a BBC News journalist taking an in-depth look at safety standards in the airline industry in general, and amongst low-cost operators in particular.
In response to my posts, a number of very-well informed people got in touch with me, and were immensely helpful in assisting me to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
Issues raised to date include: pilot fatigue, and how management respond when it is reported; corporate culture and allegations of bullying; whether pilots are encouraged to report flying errors without fear; the relationships between the regulators (IAA, CAA etc) and the airline; and the CAP371 (whether it is being adhered to; whether it is enough to prevent fatigue; and how airlines view it).
I'm extremely grateful, since I know a number of airlines threaten to sack any pilots who talk to the media. Rest assured, any information provided has been, is, and will always be treatest in strictest confidence.
I'd be very grateful if they would get in touch with me again, completely anonymously of course if that's what you'd prefer. Furthermore, I still need to speak to more informed people, to enable me to corroborate / eliminate various lines of inquiry.
Finally, if there are any members of REPA out there, could they get in touch? I'd love to be included in the forums on there, but it is of course limited to pilots at present.
You can either email me: [email protected] or ring me on [phone]. I'm rarely at my desk, but can pick up emails and calls on my mobile wherever I happen to be.
Best wishes
Ian Shoesmith, BBC News

[sikeano]

Quote from the RT Hon Journo
"I'm extremely grateful, since I know a number of airlines threaten to sack any pilots who talk to the media. Rest assured, any information provided has been, is, and will always be treatest in strictest confidence"
My Lips are Sealed
nuff said