ATC... Bollockings for all
Busy Bee,
Well said and if that were me I would not be happy at the thought of the Monarch jet perhaps on my tail.
MM,
1. However well you know MAN, you are only a visitor there. The local ATCO's will always know better than you what is required. It is good manners that when visiting somewhere you observe the customs of the house/country. When in Rome...
2. Your last post suggests you need an anger management course. Do you respond in the same way to opposing views in the cockpit?
3. When I hear "I'm too experienced to follow the rules" I worry a lot.
Sal
Well said and if that were me I would not be happy at the thought of the Monarch jet perhaps on my tail.
MM,
1. However well you know MAN, you are only a visitor there. The local ATCO's will always know better than you what is required. It is good manners that when visiting somewhere you observe the customs of the house/country. When in Rome...
2. Your last post suggests you need an anger management course. Do you respond in the same way to opposing views in the cockpit?
3. When I hear "I'm too experienced to follow the rules" I worry a lot.
Sal
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Monarch Man,
I do know this argument is about MAN 24L/R. But according your own words you feel its wasted airtime to mention established 24R. Because, again according to your own words, you can't be established on 24L as it has no ILS.
With that logic in mind can you explain to me which R/T procedure you use in LGW? Technically you can't be established on 26R as it has no ILS. But the last time i listened everybody used 'established 26L'. Even our own company aircraft.
If you feel its required in LGW, why do you think its not required in MAN?
I do know this argument is about MAN 24L/R. But according your own words you feel its wasted airtime to mention established 24R. Because, again according to your own words, you can't be established on 24L as it has no ILS.
With that logic in mind can you explain to me which R/T procedure you use in LGW? Technically you can't be established on 26R as it has no ILS. But the last time i listened everybody used 'established 26L'. Even our own company aircraft.
If you feel its required in LGW, why do you think its not required in MAN?
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SLF here.
"localiser establisherd rwy 24", to my mind, leaves lots of room for misunderstanding - simply because MAN doesn't have a runway 24!
It has a runway 24L. It has a runway 24R. It doesn't have a runway 24.
Please try to use the correct phrasing, it seems to me that it would help you avoid landing your aircraft on mine as I'm waiting to take-off.
"localiser establisherd rwy 24", to my mind, leaves lots of room for misunderstanding - simply because MAN doesn't have a runway 24!
It has a runway 24L. It has a runway 24R. It doesn't have a runway 24.
Please try to use the correct phrasing, it seems to me that it would help you avoid landing your aircraft on mine as I'm waiting to take-off.
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Dear oh dear,
what a lot of bolox.
Time to get that Job palying a piano in a whorehouse...
Monarch man. if there is no need to make the small effort of repeating the full designator then there is also no need to put the definate article in front of your Moanarch callsign ,but you lot do. We just smile and think what
t0ssers. Or the monarch chap who asked for taxi while still tugged up. On being challenged by ourselves and atc the f/o was dashed rude. As a result of their collective experience and skill they proceeded to rush taxi to 24l forgeting the flaps. (757) They remembered them half way thru the line up, just as we were about to warn them. That wasnt you monarch man was it? Too experinced for regular afterstart /pre taxi checks as well as readbacks?Now monarch man do you represent this attitude in monarch or are you just letting your colleagues down? If it was you Id be happy to recieve a PM and we can forwrd the incident and your attitude to your chief pilot.
Also it mOnArch with short vowels, not moanaaarch.
There is however one grumpy sod at man who last year pulled up a cadet on his first sector of rt. I called him on the phone and gave him short shrift. End of.
Certainly not pages of sanctimonious crap
what a lot of bolox.
Time to get that Job palying a piano in a whorehouse...
Monarch man. if there is no need to make the small effort of repeating the full designator then there is also no need to put the definate article in front of your Moanarch callsign ,but you lot do. We just smile and think what
t0ssers. Or the monarch chap who asked for taxi while still tugged up. On being challenged by ourselves and atc the f/o was dashed rude. As a result of their collective experience and skill they proceeded to rush taxi to 24l forgeting the flaps. (757) They remembered them half way thru the line up, just as we were about to warn them. That wasnt you monarch man was it? Too experinced for regular afterstart /pre taxi checks as well as readbacks?Now monarch man do you represent this attitude in monarch or are you just letting your colleagues down? If it was you Id be happy to recieve a PM and we can forwrd the incident and your attitude to your chief pilot.
Also it mOnArch with short vowels, not moanaaarch.
There is however one grumpy sod at man who last year pulled up a cadet on his first sector of rt. I called him on the phone and gave him short shrift. End of.
Certainly not pages of sanctimonious crap
This must be a wind up by MM.
Or, considering his unblemished career, he is like Jasper Carrot's mother in law.
"Been driving for 30 years and never had an accident, but she's SEEN hundreds!!"
Or, considering his unblemished career, he is like Jasper Carrot's mother in law.
"Been driving for 30 years and never had an accident, but she's SEEN hundreds!!"
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Initial Calls, Runway Idents and Situational Awareness
Sorry for the late call chaps, only just come on frequency. You're not expecting me, so if I tell you who I am, where I am and what I am doing, then that must enhance your situational awareness, whether Pilot or ATCO, even if the latter is expecting me. So an initial call including c/s, ILS established, r/w including L,R,(C or whatever) and range sets the scene for everyone on the frequency. Anything that enhances situational awareness of those who may be affected has to be a safety plus, always assuming that they're listening. At Manchester, under normal circumstances, the only initial call using callsign onlyon a tower or approach frequency is on transfer from one of the two approach control positions to the final director, and that is only if specified. Yes, it can get busy with high r/t loadings, yes we can all get grumpy, yes we can have approaches to both runways simultaneously, yes we have had crews set up for the wrong runway. It's dead easy to get it wrong, and I like talks in the boss's office without biscuits as little as the next man or woman. It's also dead easy to do it right. Have read through some of the previous posts and can't really believe that we're all on the same side.
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I'll probably get shot down.Again!
Anyway in Hong Kong when CLK opened on single runway it was called 25L/07R.The North runway was still under construction,but it had 25R/07L and big X painted on it.We used full runway designators because it was a new airport, strange for everyone and that was what the runway was called.Despite having red stop bars, and a closed runway it didn't stop Korean getting lost and taxiing on 25R .Golden Plonker Towbar Award.There was no ILS radiating on 25R/07L but a hell of a lot of dumper trucks.Nasty if you hit them.
Once the North Runway was opened we were allowed to do sideslips on to the other runway,if there was a problem.I don't know Manc but guess that option might be available.Then you'd have to get the L or R crystal clear.
(Heads)
Anyway in Hong Kong when CLK opened on single runway it was called 25L/07R.The North runway was still under construction,but it had 25R/07L and big X painted on it.We used full runway designators because it was a new airport, strange for everyone and that was what the runway was called.Despite having red stop bars, and a closed runway it didn't stop Korean getting lost and taxiing on 25R
.Golden Plonker Towbar Award.There was no ILS radiating on 25R/07L but a hell of a lot of dumper trucks.Nasty if you hit them.Once the North Runway was opened we were allowed to do sideslips on to the other runway,if there was a problem.I don't know Manc but guess that option might be available.Then you'd have to get the L or R crystal clear.
(Heads)
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This is getting ridiculous!
Before becoming an F/O based at MAN, I was a bobby who worked in a police communications and control room, sending people to burglarys, domestics, fights etc.
The golden rule of my time working inside was 'never p1$$ off your communicator, or the next ball of s&^t will be heading your way'. The maxim is true now as it ever has been. The ATCO's are there to do their job, and we are there to do ours. IMHO, if you annoy an ATCO, be prepared to spend some time in the hold or get sent the long way round! The ATCO is there to ensure safety, and whatever we, as pilots, can do to ensure they have the complete picture in terms of situational awareness and clarity, then I'll do, without question or sarcastic remarks.
We all do our different jobs, let's just do them to the best of ability, WITHOUT WINDING EACH OTHER UP!
Before becoming an F/O based at MAN, I was a bobby who worked in a police communications and control room, sending people to burglarys, domestics, fights etc.
The golden rule of my time working inside was 'never p1$$ off your communicator, or the next ball of s&^t will be heading your way'. The maxim is true now as it ever has been. The ATCO's are there to do their job, and we are there to do ours. IMHO, if you annoy an ATCO, be prepared to spend some time in the hold or get sent the long way round! The ATCO is there to ensure safety, and whatever we, as pilots, can do to ensure they have the complete picture in terms of situational awareness and clarity, then I'll do, without question or sarcastic remarks.
We all do our different jobs, let's just do them to the best of ability, WITHOUT WINDING EACH OTHER UP!
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In the ideal world there will be a calmness and equilbrium which all parties involved in the operation of the aircraft will endeavour to maintain at all times and under all circumstances and so preserve the safety much loved by everyone. Unfortunately this is the real world and it won't always be so calm or safe. Pilots and ATCOs effectively interact at many stages of the flight, however, this is only directly apparent in RT transmissions and interpretation of each others behaviours. No-one gets everything right all the time, and CRM, and TRM for ATCOs, includes ways of identifying and correcting inappropriate actions and behaviours in, ideally, a non-confontational way, however, one person's gentle reminder may be seen by the other as waggling a red rag in their face. Most of these techniques are considered within the context of the immediate workplace - the fightdeck, the tower or wherever. The fact that Pilots and ATCOs interact with each other from their own workplaces means that effectively they are a part of each others resources. Chastising or whatever on the RT is an emotive subject as we have seen. Perhaps a comment like "can we talk about this later" and the provision of a phone number would take the heat out of it. Alternatively I suppose "Pistols at dawn on PPRUNE?" As for punishment by extra holding or long routings? Not really. My life is difficult enough as it is. I just want the awkward squad off my frequency ASAP
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Some interesting observations here. One could say that standard phrases should be the same the (aviating) World around. Things like "Clear to land RWY 25R" etc should be pretty straight forward. However different places concoct their own idiosyncracy's because of local issues. Here in Hong Kong we say "Descend to 6000 FEET" which some people that never come here might find strange, but then in the next breath we may be clearing an aircraft to climb to "Flight Level 6900 METRES ". I feel a bit sorry for the thread starter and some of his/her supporters, as some Controllers can be a bit high handed at times. It would be interesting to see a PPLune (sic) thread in Mandarin that some of the Chinese pilots that fly into here would subscribe to, with some of the "bollockings" that they have to put up with from some of my colleagues.
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MM......Muffin the Mule?
I remember the days when that didn't carry a 10 year suspended sentence!
Now if you really want to bring up a potential safety issue what about the seemingly universal tendency for both controllers and us (not US)pilots to omitt the words flight level and add the word "to" or was it 2!
MM, very dry.
I remember the days when that didn't carry a 10 year suspended sentence!
Now if you really want to bring up a potential safety issue what about the seemingly universal tendency for both controllers and us (not US)pilots to omitt the words flight level and add the word "to" or was it 2!
MM, very dry.
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if you annoy an ATCO, be prepared to spend some time in the hold or get sent the long way round!
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there are some very good ATC controllers at man and some that have a bit of a short fuse. there is one ATCO that is cool as a cucumber no mater what even if it is very busy and some fog thrown in for the fun of it he remains so cool his voice never changes.
yet there is one lady ATCO who can lose the plot at time's she is known to some of us as the ice maiden god she can rip a strip of you at the best of times even when its quiet and sunny
you all do a great job and i tip my hat to you all
rampman
yet there is one lady ATCO who can lose the plot at time's she is known to some of us as the ice maiden god she can rip a strip of you at the best of times even when its quiet and sunny
you all do a great job and i tip my hat to you all
rampman
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OK. I have the solution. Can MAPLC please arrange the installation of an ILS on the Southern runway at Manch. Then Monarch Mate will be happy to oblige calling the Northern runway 24R at all times.
Problem Solved.
Problem Solved.
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On a more serious note, the useage of phraseology Left and Right didn't and won't stop me and my colleague accidentally setting up the aircraft for 06L at Manchester while 06R was/is in use. (Following a very nice brief - all be it from "the wrong plate"! Doh.) In the event, we didn't get a LOC signal from 06L - but what if...?
Although we figured it out on base leg, I never mind being VERY clear about which runway we're using because we all need extra safety nets from time to time(Especially after four consecutive 5a.m. starts!!).
Not meaning to annoy any Man controllers, nor do I condone slack RT used by many at our daily destinations, but I hope this might help you understand the human side...
When we operate in the rest of the world where a whole variety of RT practices achieves a routine result, then returning to textbook RT practices at Manchester after 10 hours away from it can be a little trying. Especially when we pilots are tired and emotional.
So ATC'ers, this doesn't excuse the poor RT, but might help shed some light on what may be in the minds of some of those on the other end of your radio.
I can say for myself that I often appreciate a gentle contoller request for a readback to clarify something I may have been ambiguous about.
BUT with just a little too much conviction from the controller it can set off a feeling of mild anger that I would like to think I'd never feel - but it sometimes happens me too. Now there's human factors for ya!! But to this day, I haven't let it spill out to the airwaves. What's said to my colleague on the flight deck
might be different, hee hee 
Oh well, just a bit more fuel on the fire from me.
Although we figured it out on base leg, I never mind being VERY clear about which runway we're using because we all need extra safety nets from time to time(Especially after four consecutive 5a.m. starts!!).
Not meaning to annoy any Man controllers, nor do I condone slack RT used by many at our daily destinations, but I hope this might help you understand the human side...
When we operate in the rest of the world where a whole variety of RT practices achieves a routine result, then returning to textbook RT practices at Manchester after 10 hours away from it can be a little trying. Especially when we pilots are tired and emotional.
So ATC'ers, this doesn't excuse the poor RT, but might help shed some light on what may be in the minds of some of those on the other end of your radio.
I can say for myself that I often appreciate a gentle contoller request for a readback to clarify something I may have been ambiguous about.
BUT with just a little too much conviction from the controller it can set off a feeling of mild anger that I would like to think I'd never feel - but it sometimes happens me too. Now there's human factors for ya!! But to this day, I haven't let it spill out to the airwaves. What's said to my colleague on the flight deck
might be different, hee hee Oh well, just a bit more fuel on the fire from me.
Well, your all wrong!!! (Well you will be).
"As of 7th July 2007, Manchester Airport's runway assignments will be changed in relation to the Magnetic Compass bearings. The current headings for the runways are 054° and 234° with assignments 06L/24R and 06R/24L respectively (11/1/07). The new runway changes will mean the new assignments will be 05L/23R and 05R/23L respectively. "
"As of 7th July 2007, Manchester Airport's runway assignments will be changed in relation to the Magnetic Compass bearings. The current headings for the runways are 054° and 234° with assignments 06L/24R and 06R/24L respectively (11/1/07). The new runway changes will mean the new assignments will be 05L/23R and 05R/23L respectively. "