LoCo airlines busting minima in LVP's at STN?
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Right where do i start. Firstly for you ivory tower muthers who say its impossible for you to make such an error i have no words.... apart from scuttle sideways back to the RAF.
Either way this isn't about Ivory towers
Who cares WHERE its written of course minima was busted due to the WIP increases. This is not a training issue. The best and worst of pilots exist in most companies
If pilots feel that their authority has been usurped by management to the extent they will bust minima just to avoid some kind of censure..then its just a question of time before a hull loss and fatalities occur.
Wheres the Hairy camels comments in all of this?
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Right where do i start. Firstly for you ivory tower muthers who say its impossible for you to make such an error i have no words.... apart from scuttle sideways back to the RAF.
Either way this isn't about Ivory towers
Who cares WHERE its written of course minima was busted due to the WIP increases. This is not a training issue. The best and worst of pilots exist in most companies
If pilots feel that their authority has been usurped by management to the extent they will bust minima just to avoid some kind of censure..then its just a question of time before a hull loss and fatalities occur.
Wheres the Hairy camels comments in all of this?
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Flaps
This does appear to be a training issue. I've been flying Airbus for 8 years (i.e. Cat 2/3). From the outset, the affect on minima of reduced lighting has always been emphasised - don't you get that thrown at you in your recurrent sims? To test your knowledge....
Scuttle back to RAF. What are you on about....... just a guy who wanted to fly commecial since a child. Have worked hard and take a conscientious approach to my work..... I keep my head in the books...... it's a requirement with the RESPONSIBILITY of Command.
You mention chasing down "bold" pilots.... isn't there an expression about "old and bold" pilots?
A4
This does appear to be a training issue. I've been flying Airbus for 8 years (i.e. Cat 2/3). From the outset, the affect on minima of reduced lighting has always been emphasised - don't you get that thrown at you in your recurrent sims? To test your knowledge....
Scuttle back to RAF. What are you on about....... just a guy who wanted to fly commecial since a child. Have worked hard and take a conscientious approach to my work..... I keep my head in the books...... it's a requirement with the RESPONSIBILITY of Command.
You mention chasing down "bold" pilots.... isn't there an expression about "old and bold" pilots?
A4
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Flaps
This does appear to be a training issue. I've been flying Airbus for 8 years (i.e. Cat 2/3). From the outset, the affect on minima of reduced lighting has always been emphasised - don't you get that thrown at you in your recurrent sims? To test your knowledge....
Scuttle back to RAF. What are you on about....... just a guy who wanted to fly commecial since a child. Have worked hard and take a conscientious approach to my work..... I keep my head in the books...... it's a requirement with the RESPONSIBILITY of Command.
You mention chasing down "bold" pilots.... isn't there an expression about "old and bold" pilots?
A4
This does appear to be a training issue. I've been flying Airbus for 8 years (i.e. Cat 2/3). From the outset, the affect on minima of reduced lighting has always been emphasised - don't you get that thrown at you in your recurrent sims? To test your knowledge....
Scuttle back to RAF. What are you on about....... just a guy who wanted to fly commecial since a child. Have worked hard and take a conscientious approach to my work..... I keep my head in the books...... it's a requirement with the RESPONSIBILITY of Command.
You mention chasing down "bold" pilots.... isn't there an expression about "old and bold" pilots?
A4
flapsarefun,
Ask me a difficult one!
This is obviously an unprofessional poorly trained individual. The only pressure in this incident is created by himself. He is responsible.
The difficult question is
How representative of Ryanair Captains is this?
from this thread he is not alone!!
Ask me a difficult one!
This is obviously an unprofessional poorly trained individual. The only pressure in this incident is created by himself. He is responsible.
The difficult question is
How representative of Ryanair Captains is this?
from this thread he is not alone!!
flapsarefun,
Ask me a difficult one!
This is obviously an unprofessional poorly trained individual. The only pressure in this incident is created by himself. He is responsible.
The difficult question is
How representative of Ryanair Captains is this?
from this thread he is not alone!!
Ask me a difficult one!
This is obviously an unprofessional poorly trained individual. The only pressure in this incident is created by himself. He is responsible.
The difficult question is
How representative of Ryanair Captains is this?
from this thread he is not alone!!
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Flapsarefun - Judging Ryanair by the facts, I can see there is company pressure and I agree with you, however my post above and others are referring to Brakingactionpoor's assertion that he doesn't know his aircraft limits and seemingly "a lot" of Ryanair Captains made the same mistake.
If it comes to pushing limits such as these for the sake of keeping your job, its time to leave. Easy to say and hard to do I know, but if my company wanted me to risk my life (and the safety of the aircraft and pax and therefore the safety of the company) I would leave as soon as I could, if it could not be fixed.
As long as people support regimes such as that alleged by you (and believed by me) they will continue. Unless someone stands up to the bully tactics, the bullies will win.
As I said, easy to say and hard to do, but let's be honest if 30 aircraft divert due weather, they can hardly fire all 30 Captains. If 20 divert and 10 get in below limits, they can easily fire the 10. It depends on how you look at the pressure and its effects.
If it comes to pushing limits such as these for the sake of keeping your job, its time to leave. Easy to say and hard to do I know, but if my company wanted me to risk my life (and the safety of the aircraft and pax and therefore the safety of the company) I would leave as soon as I could, if it could not be fixed.
As long as people support regimes such as that alleged by you (and believed by me) they will continue. Unless someone stands up to the bully tactics, the bullies will win.
As I said, easy to say and hard to do, but let's be honest if 30 aircraft divert due weather, they can hardly fire all 30 Captains. If 20 divert and 10 get in below limits, they can easily fire the 10. It depends on how you look at the pressure and its effects.
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Flapsarefun - Judging Ryanair by the facts, I can see there is company pressure and I agree with you, however my post above and others are referring to Brakingactionpoor's assertion that he doesn't know his aircraft limits and seemingly "a lot" of Ryanair Captains made the same mistake.
If it comes to pushing limits such as these for the sake of keeping your job, its time to leave. Easy to say and hard to do I know, but if my company wanted me to risk my life (and the safety of the aircraft and pax and therefore the safety of the company) I would leave as soon as I could, if it could not be fixed.
As long as people support regimes such as that alleged by you (and believed by me) they will continue. Unless someone stands up to the bully tactics, the bullies will win.
As I said, easy to say and hard to do, but let's be honest if 30 aircraft divert due weather, they can hardly fire all 30 Captains. If 20 divert and 10 get in below limits, they can easily fire the 10. It depends on how you look at the pressure and its effects.
If it comes to pushing limits such as these for the sake of keeping your job, its time to leave. Easy to say and hard to do I know, but if my company wanted me to risk my life (and the safety of the aircraft and pax and therefore the safety of the company) I would leave as soon as I could, if it could not be fixed.
As long as people support regimes such as that alleged by you (and believed by me) they will continue. Unless someone stands up to the bully tactics, the bullies will win.
As I said, easy to say and hard to do, but let's be honest if 30 aircraft divert due weather, they can hardly fire all 30 Captains. If 20 divert and 10 get in below limits, they can easily fire the 10. It depends on how you look at the pressure and its effects.
So let's look at this in a lot more detail. Let us for example look at a CAT 2 approach into Stansted. We get the latest ATIS coming up to CLN and check in with Essex Radar with "Bloggs XXX a Boeing 797 with X-ray".
At this stage the conditions are within limits.
Then things start to get busy and suddenly you are on finals. While all this is going on the RVR is dropping and Essex are so bl**dy busy that they are late in handing you over to "Keep 160 to 4DME" to Stansted Tower.
They tell you on check-in that the RVR is now xxx/yyy/zzz.
This is below your minimas but since you have already passed the IAF with above minimas then you are allowed under JARs to continue to minima and land (if you can see the runway).
So, absolutely none of you Monday morning quarterbackers out there can have a go at any particular crew for you simply do not know the circumstances. You might well have recorded the ATIS at the time but that is meaningless for the ATIS is history.
For example, Essex Radar require you to check in with your aircraft type and ATIS Callsign.
I went into STN one night and my F/O did EXACTLY that. The ATIS was giving a 05 arrival and I was not too bothered when I came off ABBOT on a heading of 270° which looked like the feed-in for the downwind for 05.
Imagine my surprise when we were then told to lock on and call established! We are still at 6000 feet.
I told the man that this would put us on to a heading for downwind and was then told that the runway had just been changed to 23!!!!!!!!!
We were now rather high!!!!!!!! And fast!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, we made it and landed safely. I complained about the unexpected runway change on taxi-in and was told that I should listen to the ATIS!
I rather lost my rag at that point and asked "them" to listen to "their" tapes and to confirm which ATIS we had confirmed on check-in with Essex Radar.
We got a grovelling and I mean a grovelling apology and so the matter went no further.
Finally, I would always advocate making an approach in marginal conditions when you have a sensible amount of fuel on board but not when you are down to minimums.
At this stage the conditions are within limits.
Then things start to get busy and suddenly you are on finals. While all this is going on the RVR is dropping and Essex are so bl**dy busy that they are late in handing you over to "Keep 160 to 4DME" to Stansted Tower.
They tell you on check-in that the RVR is now xxx/yyy/zzz.
This is below your minimas but since you have already passed the IAF with above minimas then you are allowed under JARs to continue to minima and land (if you can see the runway).
So, absolutely none of you Monday morning quarterbackers out there can have a go at any particular crew for you simply do not know the circumstances. You might well have recorded the ATIS at the time but that is meaningless for the ATIS is history.
For example, Essex Radar require you to check in with your aircraft type and ATIS Callsign.
I went into STN one night and my F/O did EXACTLY that. The ATIS was giving a 05 arrival and I was not too bothered when I came off ABBOT on a heading of 270° which looked like the feed-in for the downwind for 05.
Imagine my surprise when we were then told to lock on and call established! We are still at 6000 feet.
I told the man that this would put us on to a heading for downwind and was then told that the runway had just been changed to 23!!!!!!!!!
We were now rather high!!!!!!!! And fast!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, we made it and landed safely. I complained about the unexpected runway change on taxi-in and was told that I should listen to the ATIS!
I rather lost my rag at that point and asked "them" to listen to "their" tapes and to confirm which ATIS we had confirmed on check-in with Essex Radar.
We got a grovelling and I mean a grovelling apology and so the matter went no further.
Finally, I would always advocate making an approach in marginal conditions when you have a sensible amount of fuel on board but not when you are down to minimums.
So let's look at this in a lot more detail. Let us for example look at a CAT 2 approach into Stansted. We get the latest ATIS coming up to CLN and check in with Essex Radar with "Bloggs XXX a Boeing 797 with X-ray".
At this stage the conditions are within limits.
Then things start to get busy and suddenly you are on finals. While all this is going on the RVR is dropping and Essex are so bl**dy busy that they are late in handing you over to "Keep 160 to 4DME" to Stansted Tower.
They tell you on check-in that the RVR is now xxx/yyy/zzz.
This is below your minimas but since you have already passed the IAF with above minimas then you are allowed under JARs to continue to minima and land (if you can see the runway).
So, absolutely none of you Monday morning quarterbackers out there can have a go at any particular crew for you simply do not know the circumstances. You might well have recorded the ATIS at the time but that is meaningless for the ATIS is history.
For example, Essex Radar require you to check in with your aircraft type and ATIS Callsign.
I went into STN one night and my F/O did EXACTLY that. The ATIS was giving a 05 arrival and I was not too bothered when I came off ABBOT on a heading of 270° which looked like the feed-in for the downwind for 05.
Imagine my surprise when we were then told to lock on and call established! We are still at 6000 feet.
I told the man that this would put us on to a heading for downwind and was then told that the runway had just been changed to 23!!!!!!!!!
We were now rather high!!!!!!!! And fast!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, we made it and landed safely. I complained about the unexpected runway change on taxi-in and was told that I should listen to the ATIS!
I rather lost my rag at that point and asked "them" to listen to "their" tapes and to confirm which ATIS we had confirmed on check-in with Essex Radar.
We got a grovelling and I mean a grovelling apology and so the matter went no further.
Finally, I would always advocate making an approach in marginal conditions when you have a sensible amount of fuel on board but not when you are down to minimums.
At this stage the conditions are within limits.
Then things start to get busy and suddenly you are on finals. While all this is going on the RVR is dropping and Essex are so bl**dy busy that they are late in handing you over to "Keep 160 to 4DME" to Stansted Tower.
They tell you on check-in that the RVR is now xxx/yyy/zzz.
This is below your minimas but since you have already passed the IAF with above minimas then you are allowed under JARs to continue to minima and land (if you can see the runway).
So, absolutely none of you Monday morning quarterbackers out there can have a go at any particular crew for you simply do not know the circumstances. You might well have recorded the ATIS at the time but that is meaningless for the ATIS is history.
For example, Essex Radar require you to check in with your aircraft type and ATIS Callsign.
I went into STN one night and my F/O did EXACTLY that. The ATIS was giving a 05 arrival and I was not too bothered when I came off ABBOT on a heading of 270° which looked like the feed-in for the downwind for 05.
Imagine my surprise when we were then told to lock on and call established! We are still at 6000 feet.
I told the man that this would put us on to a heading for downwind and was then told that the runway had just been changed to 23!!!!!!!!!
We were now rather high!!!!!!!! And fast!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, we made it and landed safely. I complained about the unexpected runway change on taxi-in and was told that I should listen to the ATIS!
I rather lost my rag at that point and asked "them" to listen to "their" tapes and to confirm which ATIS we had confirmed on check-in with Essex Radar.
We got a grovelling and I mean a grovelling apology and so the matter went no further.
Finally, I would always advocate making an approach in marginal conditions when you have a sensible amount of fuel on board but not when you are down to minimums.
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Orni and A4 ...knowing the limit (from training)and RECOGNISING when it is to be applied are 2 different things(ie due lack of prep time , fatigue etc). BUSY B, A4, HAUGHTY probably work in an airline that supports their pilots rather than feeding off their backs! Are u guys SOOOO wrapped up in cotton wool all the time? ... or just have never flown 900 in 9 months.
Clearly 'haughty' wont be happy until I state the obvious. OF COURSE minima should not be busted. Where minima are concerned there is only black n white. Shoutin high handed rmks about lack of training tells me u know nothing of low fares. .... you lucky girl. And as for you BUSY B in HKG.....well do they still serve you colonial tea whilst briefing your highness with the notams as you sort the world out?....not an fr luxury in 5 mins! Actually most FR Capts do report early and make every effort to do the right thing and read the appropriate paperwork.
But WE should should care about the ROOT of the problem and not be sniping at each other. To paint a picture, company pressure is institutionalised in FR. (see me rmks on report times). I suspect the minima increase was perhaps missed by trained but fatigued guys at the end of a 4 sector day in a 20 sector week who had not enuf time to read the notams properly at the start of the day. Not 100% condonable but it is arrogant of some of the above to absolve 'small factor' company pressure. FR will dish out 'Raps on knuckles' but the irony is that FR should be changing their policy of pilot intimidation and overwork to one of support.... maybe even borrow some cotton wool from Haughty.
Clearly 'haughty' wont be happy until I state the obvious. OF COURSE minima should not be busted. Where minima are concerned there is only black n white. Shoutin high handed rmks about lack of training tells me u know nothing of low fares. .... you lucky girl. And as for you BUSY B in HKG.....well do they still serve you colonial tea whilst briefing your highness with the notams as you sort the world out?....not an fr luxury in 5 mins! Actually most FR Capts do report early and make every effort to do the right thing and read the appropriate paperwork.
But WE should should care about the ROOT of the problem and not be sniping at each other. To paint a picture, company pressure is institutionalised in FR. (see me rmks on report times). I suspect the minima increase was perhaps missed by trained but fatigued guys at the end of a 4 sector day in a 20 sector week who had not enuf time to read the notams properly at the start of the day. Not 100% condonable but it is arrogant of some of the above to absolve 'small factor' company pressure. FR will dish out 'Raps on knuckles' but the irony is that FR should be changing their policy of pilot intimidation and overwork to one of support.... maybe even borrow some cotton wool from Haughty.
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Orni and A4 ...knowing the limit (from training)and RECOGNISING when it is to be applied are 2 different things(ie due lack of prep time , fatigue etc). BUSY B, A4, HAUGHTY probably work in an airline that supports their pilots rather than feeding off their backs! Are u guys SOOOO wrapped up in cotton wool all the time? ... or just have never flown 900 in 9 months.
Clearly 'haughty' wont be happy until I state the obvious. OF COURSE minima should not be busted. Where minima are concerned there is only black n white. Shoutin high handed rmks about lack of training tells me u know nothing of low fares. .... you lucky girl. And as for you BUSY B in HKG.....well do they still serve you colonial tea whilst briefing your highness with the notams as you sort the world out?....not an fr luxury in 5 mins! Actually most FR Capts do report early and make every effort to do the right thing and read the appropriate paperwork.
But WE should should care about the ROOT of the problem and not be sniping at each other. To paint a picture, company pressure is institutionalised in FR. (see me rmks on report times). I suspect the minima increase was perhaps missed by trained but fatigued guys at the end of a 4 sector day in a 20 sector week who had not enuf time to read the notams properly at the start of the day. Not 100% condonable but it is arrogant of some of the above to absolve 'small factor' company pressure. FR will dish out 'Raps on knuckles' but the irony is that FR should be changing their policy of pilot intimidation and overwork to one of support.... maybe even borrow some cotton wool from Haughty.
Clearly 'haughty' wont be happy until I state the obvious. OF COURSE minima should not be busted. Where minima are concerned there is only black n white. Shoutin high handed rmks about lack of training tells me u know nothing of low fares. .... you lucky girl. And as for you BUSY B in HKG.....well do they still serve you colonial tea whilst briefing your highness with the notams as you sort the world out?....not an fr luxury in 5 mins! Actually most FR Capts do report early and make every effort to do the right thing and read the appropriate paperwork.
But WE should should care about the ROOT of the problem and not be sniping at each other. To paint a picture, company pressure is institutionalised in FR. (see me rmks on report times). I suspect the minima increase was perhaps missed by trained but fatigued guys at the end of a 4 sector day in a 20 sector week who had not enuf time to read the notams properly at the start of the day. Not 100% condonable but it is arrogant of some of the above to absolve 'small factor' company pressure. FR will dish out 'Raps on knuckles' but the irony is that FR should be changing their policy of pilot intimidation and overwork to one of support.... maybe even borrow some cotton wool from Haughty.
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For all the clever hindsight merchants - what do you make of the actual notam:
So, in adverse wx conditions, is Cat 3 available or not?????
EGSS ILS AVAILABILTY AFTER NIGHTLY RWY WORKS IS AS FOLLOWS.
CAT 1 ILS 0600-0730 MON-THU AND 0600-0900 SUN (CAT 3 IS AVBL
IF FORECAST WEATHER CONDITIONS REQUIRES).
CAT 3 ILS AVBL AFTER 0730 MON-THU AND AFTER 0900 SUN.
FLIGHT LEVEL FROM SFC TO UNL
VALID FROM 1657 27-FEB-2006 TO 2359 30-JUL-2006: (A0376/06)
CAT 1 ILS 0600-0730 MON-THU AND 0600-0900 SUN (CAT 3 IS AVBL
IF FORECAST WEATHER CONDITIONS REQUIRES).
CAT 3 ILS AVBL AFTER 0730 MON-THU AND AFTER 0900 SUN.
FLIGHT LEVEL FROM SFC TO UNL
VALID FROM 1657 27-FEB-2006 TO 2359 30-JUL-2006: (A0376/06)
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For all the clever hindsight merchants - what do you make of the actual notam:
So, in adverse wx conditions, is Cat 3 available or not?????
EGSS ILS AVAILABILTY AFTER NIGHTLY RWY WORKS IS AS FOLLOWS.
CAT 1 ILS 0600-0730 MON-THU AND 0600-0900 SUN (CAT 3 IS AVBL
IF FORECAST WEATHER CONDITIONS REQUIRES).
CAT 3 ILS AVBL AFTER 0730 MON-THU AND AFTER 0900 SUN.
FLIGHT LEVEL FROM SFC TO UNL
VALID FROM 1657 27-FEB-2006 TO 2359 30-JUL-2006: (A0376/06)
CAT 1 ILS 0600-0730 MON-THU AND 0600-0900 SUN (CAT 3 IS AVBL
IF FORECAST WEATHER CONDITIONS REQUIRES).
CAT 3 ILS AVBL AFTER 0730 MON-THU AND AFTER 0900 SUN.
FLIGHT LEVEL FROM SFC TO UNL
VALID FROM 1657 27-FEB-2006 TO 2359 30-JUL-2006: (A0376/06)
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JW411 - i assume you made errors in your posting by mistake.
you say passing the iaf,you are allowed to continue approach to minima.I Would beg to differ in that it is the final approach fix that is the approach ban defining limit and this makes a huge difference to your argument.
You say that you have recorded the atis,but then say that you are passed the minimas and they are below your limits.You can NOT continue with the approach,because you have not passed the FAF.Getting the atis coming up to CLN is a far way from touchdown and i would suggest to you that you might get an update closer to home,even keep your ears honed for atc passing the rvrs.
"I was high and fast" but i made it in safely.Well do not go taking a chip at atc and monday morning quarterbacks until you are outside of the glasshouse.Losing the rag,very professional.I Am happy for you that you got your grovelling apology though.Big of the atc to admit their mistake.If only we were all as big as that.
I Find your post and your tone self righteous and would urge you to join your colleagues in the remedial class for commanders.Back to the books boys.There are some damning postings on here about the state of play within ryanairs pilots ability.
you say passing the iaf,you are allowed to continue approach to minima.I Would beg to differ in that it is the final approach fix that is the approach ban defining limit and this makes a huge difference to your argument.
You say that you have recorded the atis,but then say that you are passed the minimas and they are below your limits.You can NOT continue with the approach,because you have not passed the FAF.Getting the atis coming up to CLN is a far way from touchdown and i would suggest to you that you might get an update closer to home,even keep your ears honed for atc passing the rvrs.
"I was high and fast" but i made it in safely.Well do not go taking a chip at atc and monday morning quarterbacks until you are outside of the glasshouse.Losing the rag,very professional.I Am happy for you that you got your grovelling apology though.Big of the atc to admit their mistake.If only we were all as big as that.
I Find your post and your tone self righteous and would urge you to join your colleagues in the remedial class for commanders.Back to the books boys.There are some damning postings on here about the state of play within ryanairs pilots ability.
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JW411 - i assume you made errors in your posting by mistake.
you say passing the iaf,you are allowed to continue approach to minima.I Would beg to differ in that it is the final approach fix that is the approach ban defining limit and this makes a huge difference to your argument.
You say that you have recorded the atis,but then say that you are passed the minimas and they are below your limits.You can NOT continue with the approach,because you have not passed the FAF.Getting the atis coming up to CLN is a far way from touchdown and i would suggest to you that you might get an update closer to home,even keep your ears honed for atc passing the rvrs.
"I was high and fast" but i made it in safely.Well do not go taking a chip at atc and monday morning quarterbacks until you are outside of the glasshouse.Losing the rag,very professional.I Am happy for you that you got your grovelling apology though.Big of the atc to admit their mistake.If only we were all as big as that.
I Find your post and your tone self righteous and would urge you to join your colleagues in the remedial class for commanders.Back to the books boys.There are some damning postings on here about the state of play within ryanairs pilots ability.
you say passing the iaf,you are allowed to continue approach to minima.I Would beg to differ in that it is the final approach fix that is the approach ban defining limit and this makes a huge difference to your argument.
You say that you have recorded the atis,but then say that you are passed the minimas and they are below your limits.You can NOT continue with the approach,because you have not passed the FAF.Getting the atis coming up to CLN is a far way from touchdown and i would suggest to you that you might get an update closer to home,even keep your ears honed for atc passing the rvrs.
"I was high and fast" but i made it in safely.Well do not go taking a chip at atc and monday morning quarterbacks until you are outside of the glasshouse.Losing the rag,very professional.I Am happy for you that you got your grovelling apology though.Big of the atc to admit their mistake.If only we were all as big as that.
I Find your post and your tone self righteous and would urge you to join your colleagues in the remedial class for commanders.Back to the books boys.There are some damning postings on here about the state of play within ryanairs pilots ability.
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Finman - Cat 3 is not available at night when centreline lights and touchdown zone lights are out of service.Cat 2 is available but only at rvrs greater than 550m.What you see in the notam is just the ils radiating capability.
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Finman - Cat 3 is not available at night when centreline lights and touchdown zone lights are out of service.Cat 2 is available but only at rvrs greater than 550m.What you see in the notam is just the ils radiating capability.