LoCo airlines busting minima in LVP's at STN?
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Ironic that BA/Cosford have just chopped up the last Trident One that started all this blind landing stuff.
From the very start in BA(BEA) on the Trident and then onto most other types so equipped there were very simple tables in the Ops Manual. Three basic headings (four if you include "are the crew qualified"?), that is Ground Equipment (lighting, obstructions etc.) ILS equipment (tx monitors, OM/MM etc) and Airborne equipment (A/P, ILS marker receivers etc).
The tables were so simple. Look for what was working and extract what limits (RVR and DH) you could operate to day/night.
I find braking action poor's suggestion that " it never occurred to me that the WIP would affect the operation" amazing, assuming that Ryanair have similar tables to BA. Perhaps someone defending the crews involved could actually give us facts regarding the Ops Manual documentation that lays out revised limits/equipment downgrades provided to line crews by Ryanair.
From the very start in BA(BEA) on the Trident and then onto most other types so equipped there were very simple tables in the Ops Manual. Three basic headings (four if you include "are the crew qualified"?), that is Ground Equipment (lighting, obstructions etc.) ILS equipment (tx monitors, OM/MM etc) and Airborne equipment (A/P, ILS marker receivers etc).
The tables were so simple. Look for what was working and extract what limits (RVR and DH) you could operate to day/night.
I find braking action poor's suggestion that " it never occurred to me that the WIP would affect the operation" amazing, assuming that Ryanair have similar tables to BA. Perhaps someone defending the crews involved could actually give us facts regarding the Ops Manual documentation that lays out revised limits/equipment downgrades provided to line crews by Ryanair.
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Ironic that BA/Cosford have just chopped up the last Trident One that started all this blind landing stuff.
From the very start in BA(BEA) on the Trident and then onto most other types so equipped there were very simple tables in the Ops Manual. Three basic headings (four if you include "are the crew qualified"?), that is Ground Equipment (lighting, obstructions etc.) ILS equipment (tx monitors, OM/MM etc) and Airborne equipment (A/P, ILS marker receivers etc).
The tables were so simple. Look for what was working and extract what limits (RVR and DH) you could operate to day/night.
I find braking action poor's suggestion that " it never occurred to me that the WIP would affect the operation" amazing, assuming that Ryanair have similar tables to BA. Perhaps someone defending the crews involved could actually give us facts regarding the Ops Manual documentation that lays out revised limits/equipment downgrades provided to line crews by Ryanair.
From the very start in BA(BEA) on the Trident and then onto most other types so equipped there were very simple tables in the Ops Manual. Three basic headings (four if you include "are the crew qualified"?), that is Ground Equipment (lighting, obstructions etc.) ILS equipment (tx monitors, OM/MM etc) and Airborne equipment (A/P, ILS marker receivers etc).
The tables were so simple. Look for what was working and extract what limits (RVR and DH) you could operate to day/night.
I find braking action poor's suggestion that " it never occurred to me that the WIP would affect the operation" amazing, assuming that Ryanair have similar tables to BA. Perhaps someone defending the crews involved could actually give us facts regarding the Ops Manual documentation that lays out revised limits/equipment downgrades provided to line crews by Ryanair.
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Slow descent - check post number 22.
The ops manual tables are the same as published in Jeppesens up and down the land.The same as the jar minima for "DOWNGRADED OR FAILED AERODROME EQUIPMENT EFFECT ON MINIMA".
The ops manual tables are the same as published in Jeppesens up and down the land.The same as the jar minima for "DOWNGRADED OR FAILED AERODROME EQUIPMENT EFFECT ON MINIMA".
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Slow descent - check post number 22.
The ops manual tables are the same as published in Jeppesens up and down the land.The same as the jar minima for "DOWNGRADED OR FAILED AERODROME EQUIPMENT EFFECT ON MINIMA".
The ops manual tables are the same as published in Jeppesens up and down the land.The same as the jar minima for "DOWNGRADED OR FAILED AERODROME EQUIPMENT EFFECT ON MINIMA".
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every pilot knows, in 20/20 hind sight, that reduced ligthing affects your landing minimas.
Sure we all make mistakes, but to not even think about that one is negligent.PP
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every pilot knows, in 20/20 hind sight, that reduced ligthing affects your landing minimas.
Sure we all make mistakes, but to not even think about that one is negligent.PP
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Grim repa thanks. All very worrying, in my view. And I guess BAP has pretty much confirmed that, in fact, some pilots did bust the limits.
Anyone know how long the official investigation is likely to take?
Anyone know how long the official investigation is likely to take?
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press reports
Grim repa thanks. All very worrying, in my view. And I guess BAP has pretty much confirmed that, in fact, some pilots did bust the limits.
Anyone know how long the official investigation is likely to take?
Anyone know how long the official investigation is likely to take?
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Last year a Ryanair captain was demoted - by coincidence following a working day at the end of which he declined additional flight duties on grounds of fatigue. Nobody, least of all Ryanair pilots, have the slightest doubt about the corporate "message" that this action was meant to send out. (Again, and solely by coincidence, such is the efficiency of this operation that no pilot reserves were necessary - think about that).
Two entities seem to be confused about the "message" that was sent out - one is Ryanair and the other is the Irish Aviation Authority. As of today, the matter of the demoted captain has not been resolved. Which suggests that there is no intention to resolve it.
Yes, captains and all crew members do have legal responsibilities. But, who is to protect them if they exercise their responsibilities and find themselves without a job, or a promotion? In other words, it is all very well to talk about pilot responsibilities while ignoring the realities - which include management pilots and postholders who are never to be seen when there is a commercial dictat, or management interference in operational issues. The erosion of all normal protections is well established.
Both the IAA and the airline say such matters are the responsibility of the captain. Yea so it is, in legal-speak. But there are wider responsibilities too. One day all of this is going to come home to roost, somewhere.
Two entities seem to be confused about the "message" that was sent out - one is Ryanair and the other is the Irish Aviation Authority. As of today, the matter of the demoted captain has not been resolved. Which suggests that there is no intention to resolve it.
Yes, captains and all crew members do have legal responsibilities. But, who is to protect them if they exercise their responsibilities and find themselves without a job, or a promotion? In other words, it is all very well to talk about pilot responsibilities while ignoring the realities - which include management pilots and postholders who are never to be seen when there is a commercial dictat, or management interference in operational issues. The erosion of all normal protections is well established.
Both the IAA and the airline say such matters are the responsibility of the captain. Yea so it is, in legal-speak. But there are wider responsibilities too. One day all of this is going to come home to roost, somewhere.
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Last year a Ryanair captain was demoted - by coincidence following a working day at the end of which he declined additional flight duties on grounds of fatigue. Nobody, least of all Ryanair pilots, have the slightest doubt about the corporate "message" that this action was meant to send out. (Again, and solely by coincidence, such is the efficiency of this operation that no pilot reserves were necessary - think about that).
Two entities seem to be confused about the "message" that was sent out - one is Ryanair and the other is the Irish Aviation Authority. As of today, the matter of the demoted captain has not been resolved. Which suggests that there is no intention to resolve it.
Yes, captains and all crew members do have legal responsibilities. But, who is to protect them if they exercise their responsibilities and find themselves without a job, or a promotion? In other words, it is all very well to talk about pilot responsibilities while ignoring the realities - which include management pilots and postholders who are never to be seen when there is a commercial dictat, or management interference in operational issues. The erosion of all normal protections is well established.
Both the IAA and the airline say such matters are the responsibility of the captain. Yea so it is, in legal-speak. But there are wider responsibilities too. One day all of this is going to come home to roost, somewhere.
Two entities seem to be confused about the "message" that was sent out - one is Ryanair and the other is the Irish Aviation Authority. As of today, the matter of the demoted captain has not been resolved. Which suggests that there is no intention to resolve it.
Yes, captains and all crew members do have legal responsibilities. But, who is to protect them if they exercise their responsibilities and find themselves without a job, or a promotion? In other words, it is all very well to talk about pilot responsibilities while ignoring the realities - which include management pilots and postholders who are never to be seen when there is a commercial dictat, or management interference in operational issues. The erosion of all normal protections is well established.
Both the IAA and the airline say such matters are the responsibility of the captain. Yea so it is, in legal-speak. But there are wider responsibilities too. One day all of this is going to come home to roost, somewhere.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I find this very disturbing. When are the overseeing authorities going to wake up and take the bull by the horns and address the issues that seem to surround RYR? The coments by "braking action" defy belief. If,sir, you are a Commander of a public transport aircraft then I strongly recommend you get your head "back in the books" - that way you won't be relying on hindsight. 
It is 2006 and aviation has reached a stage where procedures, equipment and regulation are developed to such an extent that the risk to the paying public is, quite correctly, minimised. The cavalier attitude and TOTAL DISREGUARD for these procedures shown by SOME Commanders on the night in question should be dealt with by the authorities in the strongest possible way.
If the authorites fail in their duty, they will be culpable if the unthinkable happens.
A4
It is 2006 and aviation has reached a stage where procedures, equipment and regulation are developed to such an extent that the risk to the paying public is, quite correctly, minimised. The cavalier attitude and TOTAL DISREGUARD for these procedures shown by SOME Commanders on the night in question should be dealt with by the authorities in the strongest possible way.
If the authorites fail in their duty, they will be culpable if the unthinkable happens.
A4
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I find this very disturbing. When are the overseeing authorities going to wake up and take the bull by the horns and address the issues that seem to surround RYR? The coments by "braking action" defy belief. If,sir, you are a Commander of a public transport aircraft then I strongly recommend you get your head "back in the books" - that way you won't be relying on hindsight.
It is 2006 and aviation has reached a stage where procedures, equipment and regulation are developed to such an extent that the risk to the paying public is, quite correctly, minimised. The cavalier attitude and TOTAL DISREGUARD for these procedures shown by SOME Commanders on the night in question should be dealt with by the authorities in the strongest possible way.
If the authorites fail in their duty, they will be culpable if the unthinkable happens.
A4
It is 2006 and aviation has reached a stage where procedures, equipment and regulation are developed to such an extent that the risk to the paying public is, quite correctly, minimised. The cavalier attitude and TOTAL DISREGUARD for these procedures shown by SOME Commanders on the night in question should be dealt with by the authorities in the strongest possible way.
If the authorites fail in their duty, they will be culpable if the unthinkable happens.
A4
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A4 interesting that you should see it in terms of chasing down the bold commanders. It is impossible, of course, to argue with what you say. Ryanair and the IAA may well be in full agreement. In fact we may well see somebody fired. You clearly think that will solve the problem. That's what they will claim. But what if it was the tip of an iceberg?
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A4 interesting that you should see it in terms of chasing down the bold commanders. It is impossible, of course, to argue with what you say. Ryanair and the IAA may well be in full agreement. In fact we may well see somebody fired. You clearly think that will solve the problem. That's what they will claim. But what if it was the tip of an iceberg?
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Thanks Grimmy, I just wondered what is written in Ryanair's Ops Manual.
The reason being was that within BA the various aspects of "All Weather Operations" were pulled together in the Ops Manual.
With low visibilities forecast it only takes a few minutes in the cruise to go through the various operational procedures. The BA Ops Manual lists the pertinent items in a sensible order that are not covered in a "normal" (Non-Low Vis) approach briefing. Crew qualifications, Aircraft and Airfield Status which affect the min DH and RVR, "Normal" and "Non-normal" procedures during the approach, decisions relating to falling RVR's before and after 1000R, visual reference requirements, diversion in route 2 and lastly assuming a successful landing the expected taxi route, again in low vis.
With all this pulled together in one document nothing gets missed during the briefing, especially bearing in mind how infrequently we are faced with "low vis operations" in our careers.
Do Ryanair have such an "aide memoir" in the Ops Manual or are they required to jump about from Jeppesens to JAR Ops documentation etc. If the support for their pilots is lacking in the company manuals I could possibly understand how one crew might forget to check the change in limits brought on by downgraded airfield facilities, but earlier inputs to this thread suggested more than one aircraft "broke the rules".
Once the RVR's got down to below the "no CL lights limit" how many aircraft diverted and how many landed?
The reason being was that within BA the various aspects of "All Weather Operations" were pulled together in the Ops Manual.
With low visibilities forecast it only takes a few minutes in the cruise to go through the various operational procedures. The BA Ops Manual lists the pertinent items in a sensible order that are not covered in a "normal" (Non-Low Vis) approach briefing. Crew qualifications, Aircraft and Airfield Status which affect the min DH and RVR, "Normal" and "Non-normal" procedures during the approach, decisions relating to falling RVR's before and after 1000R, visual reference requirements, diversion in route 2 and lastly assuming a successful landing the expected taxi route, again in low vis.
With all this pulled together in one document nothing gets missed during the briefing, especially bearing in mind how infrequently we are faced with "low vis operations" in our careers.
Do Ryanair have such an "aide memoir" in the Ops Manual or are they required to jump about from Jeppesens to JAR Ops documentation etc. If the support for their pilots is lacking in the company manuals I could possibly understand how one crew might forget to check the change in limits brought on by downgraded airfield facilities, but earlier inputs to this thread suggested more than one aircraft "broke the rules".
Once the RVR's got down to below the "no CL lights limit" how many aircraft diverted and how many landed?
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Thanks Grimmy, I just wondered what is written in Ryanair's Ops Manual.
The reason being was that within BA the various aspects of "All Weather Operations" were pulled together in the Ops Manual.
With low visibilities forecast it only takes a few minutes in the cruise to go through the various operational procedures. The BA Ops Manual lists the pertinent items in a sensible order that are not covered in a "normal" (Non-Low Vis) approach briefing. Crew qualifications, Aircraft and Airfield Status which affect the min DH and RVR, "Normal" and "Non-normal" procedures during the approach, decisions relating to falling RVR's before and after 1000R, visual reference requirements, diversion in route 2 and lastly assuming a successful landing the expected taxi route, again in low vis.
With all this pulled together in one document nothing gets missed during the briefing, especially bearing in mind how infrequently we are faced with "low vis operations" in our careers.
Do Ryanair have such an "aide memoir" in the Ops Manual or are they required to jump about from Jeppesens to JAR Ops documentation etc. If the support for their pilots is lacking in the company manuals I could possibly understand how one crew might forget to check the change in limits brought on by downgraded airfield facilities, but earlier inputs to this thread suggested more than one aircraft "broke the rules".
Once the RVR's got down to below the "no CL lights limit" how many aircraft diverted and how many landed?
The reason being was that within BA the various aspects of "All Weather Operations" were pulled together in the Ops Manual.
With low visibilities forecast it only takes a few minutes in the cruise to go through the various operational procedures. The BA Ops Manual lists the pertinent items in a sensible order that are not covered in a "normal" (Non-Low Vis) approach briefing. Crew qualifications, Aircraft and Airfield Status which affect the min DH and RVR, "Normal" and "Non-normal" procedures during the approach, decisions relating to falling RVR's before and after 1000R, visual reference requirements, diversion in route 2 and lastly assuming a successful landing the expected taxi route, again in low vis.
With all this pulled together in one document nothing gets missed during the briefing, especially bearing in mind how infrequently we are faced with "low vis operations" in our careers.
Do Ryanair have such an "aide memoir" in the Ops Manual or are they required to jump about from Jeppesens to JAR Ops documentation etc. If the support for their pilots is lacking in the company manuals I could possibly understand how one crew might forget to check the change in limits brought on by downgraded airfield facilities, but earlier inputs to this thread suggested more than one aircraft "broke the rules".
Once the RVR's got down to below the "no CL lights limit" how many aircraft diverted and how many landed?
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THE TRUTH SO SWALLOW IT
Right where do i start. Firstly for you ivory tower muthers who say its impossible for you to make such an error i have no words.... appart from scuttle sideways back to the RAF.
Who cares WHERE its written of course minima was busted due to the WIP increases. This is not a training issue. The best and worst of pilots exist in most companies. The issue is company pressure. ie std-45 mins report to crew room, 30 mins report to the plane; itself a ten min walk away. Print out your own NOTAMS, WX, Flt PLANS .... is there even a working printer?
NONE of the pilots are brave enough to report time pressure by the company on the groundds of safety for fear of a sacking. (Just like the Capt who ran scared of reporting sick and then did a 90deg bank at CIA). Greed fuels the machine, aircraft remogaging for millions in profit or just more sector pay for me me me. So who do we blame?... The 24 yr old Capt on a 100 hr limit busting a minima the company didnt even afford him the time to read....OR The management pilot more focused on profit than a heads up for his knackered crews ....
.Who cares WHERE its written of course minima was busted due to the WIP increases. This is not a training issue. The best and worst of pilots exist in most companies. The issue is company pressure. ie std-45 mins report to crew room, 30 mins report to the plane; itself a ten min walk away. Print out your own NOTAMS, WX, Flt PLANS .... is there even a working printer?
NONE of the pilots are brave enough to report time pressure by the company on the groundds of safety for fear of a sacking. (Just like the Capt who ran scared of reporting sick and then did a 90deg bank at CIA). Greed fuels the machine, aircraft remogaging for millions in profit or just more sector pay for me me me. So who do we blame?... The 24 yr old Capt on a 100 hr limit busting a minima the company didnt even afford him the time to read....OR The management pilot more focused on profit than a heads up for his knackered crews ....
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THE TRUTH SO SWALLOW IT
Right where do i start. Firstly for you ivory tower muthers who say its impossible for you to make such an error i have no words.... appart from scuttle sideways back to the RAF.
Who cares WHERE its written of course minima was busted due to the WIP increases. This is not a training issue. The best and worst of pilots exist in most companies. The issue is company pressure. ie std-45 mins report to crew room, 30 mins report to the plane; itself a ten min walk away. Print out your own NOTAMS, WX, Flt PLANS .... is there even a working printer?
NONE of the pilots are brave enough to report time pressure by the company on the groundds of safety for fear of a sacking. (Just like the Capt who ran scared of reporting sick and then did a 90deg bank at CIA). Greed fuels the machine, aircraft remogaging for millions in profit or just more sector pay for me me me. So who do we blame?... The 24 yr old Capt on a 100 hr limit busting a minima the company didnt even afford him the time to read....OR The management pilot more focused on profit than a heads up for his knackered crews ....
.Who cares WHERE its written of course minima was busted due to the WIP increases. This is not a training issue. The best and worst of pilots exist in most companies. The issue is company pressure. ie std-45 mins report to crew room, 30 mins report to the plane; itself a ten min walk away. Print out your own NOTAMS, WX, Flt PLANS .... is there even a working printer?
NONE of the pilots are brave enough to report time pressure by the company on the groundds of safety for fear of a sacking. (Just like the Capt who ran scared of reporting sick and then did a 90deg bank at CIA). Greed fuels the machine, aircraft remogaging for millions in profit or just more sector pay for me me me. So who do we blame?... The 24 yr old Capt on a 100 hr limit busting a minima the company didnt even afford him the time to read....OR The management pilot more focused on profit than a heads up for his knackered crews ....