Ryanair pilot demoted after incident
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I would like to state here that I am a Ryanair captain,and have made go arounds from unstable approaches on a few occasions.
I have never once been asked to explain or even been approached about any of them.
I have never once been asked to explain or even been approached about any of them.
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Captain Murphy,
noted.
I would understand if you won't respond to the next question:
Do you feel, in the light of recent events such as demotion of Captains for failing to fly extra sectors, that there is overt pressure to perform your duties largely according to the commercial requirements of the company?
I accept of course that commercial considerations should have an effect on us all, but not to the extent that your job depends on it.
Any thoughts??
noted.
I would understand if you won't respond to the next question:
Do you feel, in the light of recent events such as demotion of Captains for failing to fly extra sectors, that there is overt pressure to perform your duties largely according to the commercial requirements of the company?
I accept of course that commercial considerations should have an effect on us all, but not to the extent that your job depends on it.
Any thoughts??
Ryanair invokes emotion like few other airlines on this forum and it certainly makes for some interesting reading.
EI-RB - If as you say these incidents are increasing isn't this something REPA and IALPA should (would?) be documenting and bringing to the public attention?
To do this you need incidents that are documented in the public record. Back it up with an honest analysis of FR's performance relative to the industry and REPA et al gain a lot of credibility.
It would be interesting to see some analysis based on facts.
20driver
EI-RB - If as you say these incidents are increasing isn't this something REPA and IALPA should (would?) be documenting and bringing to the public attention?
To do this you need incidents that are documented in the public record. Back it up with an honest analysis of FR's performance relative to the industry and REPA et al gain a lot of credibility.
It would be interesting to see some analysis based on facts.
20driver
Last edited by 20driver; 5th Feb 2007 at 20:02.
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Captain Paddy,
The pressure isn't overt, and that's the problem.
Nowhere is it documented that you must do extra sectors if you are tired.
Quite the opposite .On paper.
Deniability.
However, if you refuse,you will receive a phonecall from the chief pilot whilst you are still on the aircraft.
The guy that refused to fly was demoted.
Is that overt pressure or covert?
The main problem we have is the inexperience of our pilots. To a lot of them,Ryanair is their only exposure to the workplace. They presume that this is the way things are in the real world.
The pressure isn't overt, and that's the problem.
Nowhere is it documented that you must do extra sectors if you are tired.
Quite the opposite .On paper.
Deniability.
However, if you refuse,you will receive a phonecall from the chief pilot whilst you are still on the aircraft.
The guy that refused to fly was demoted.
Is that overt pressure or covert?
The main problem we have is the inexperience of our pilots. To a lot of them,Ryanair is their only exposure to the workplace. They presume that this is the way things are in the real world.
Last edited by olegmurphy; 5th Feb 2007 at 13:16. Reason: spelling
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Captain M,
I'm sure there is a better word to use. I suppose by asking about "overt" pressure what I really meant was that it is well recognised within the company that the pressure exists. Everyone is aware of it and of the potential consequences for non-compliers.
With relation to the incident that prompted this post, I feel that surely working under the continuous fear of possibly being asked to do something you are not comfortable to do and knowing that you face losing your job (or position) if you don't, must have severe effects on the rest of the operation.
I accept your statement that you have never been approached for delays due to non-stabilised approaches, but it is entirely conceivable to me on the basis of what I have been told, that some Captains must fear the possibility of being taken to task about errors made on the line. Particularly if they have recently been personally threatened, overtly or covertly
, with demotion for not feeling capable of flying extra sectors.
RYR are breeding a new environment for pilots in which it is becoming more and more acceptable, even if only by quiet agreement by a pilot with himself, to do things that are contrary to gut instinct and common sense. As much as people may prefer to insist that pilots worth their salt will stand up to it, the real world says that with time, the barrier will be eroded. I can certainly say for myself, that if I was faced with one decision which could jeopardise my lifestyle, career, mortgage, car, kids, etc, I would have some serious thinking to do. I'm not weak, just honest!
It isn't about a pilot making a conscious decision to ignore the rules, it is a case of external pressure not allowing him to see that rules are being broken. It is a human limitation. I know many may perhaps not be able to understand my logic, but I can clearly see how something clear cut and specific like the threat of demotion for not flying extra sectors can down the road lead to multiple incidents of landing with incorrect flap settings and at ridiculous speeds, orbits on finals that lack any situational awareness whatsoever, and the rushed approaches that lead to both. There may not be obvious pressure on that area of the operation, but if you are at risk of discipline for not doing what the company wants you to do and know you are working for a ruthless employer, then that pressure affects everything you do.
You had said that the problem to some extent lies with inexperienced Captains. It is really inexperienced management that I see. Management that is blatently not aware of the possible consequences of their style. Management that is not interested in aviation and has not taken any interest in developments in understanding of industry specific risk factors over the past 30 years in particular.
That to me is why this poor Captain and others like him have made mistakes that seem ridiculous to the rest of us. Phonecalls or not, the pressure is there.
Em.....
....... discuss! 
I'm sure there is a better word to use. I suppose by asking about "overt" pressure what I really meant was that it is well recognised within the company that the pressure exists. Everyone is aware of it and of the potential consequences for non-compliers.
With relation to the incident that prompted this post, I feel that surely working under the continuous fear of possibly being asked to do something you are not comfortable to do and knowing that you face losing your job (or position) if you don't, must have severe effects on the rest of the operation.
I accept your statement that you have never been approached for delays due to non-stabilised approaches, but it is entirely conceivable to me on the basis of what I have been told, that some Captains must fear the possibility of being taken to task about errors made on the line. Particularly if they have recently been personally threatened, overtly or covertly
, with demotion for not feeling capable of flying extra sectors. RYR are breeding a new environment for pilots in which it is becoming more and more acceptable, even if only by quiet agreement by a pilot with himself, to do things that are contrary to gut instinct and common sense. As much as people may prefer to insist that pilots worth their salt will stand up to it, the real world says that with time, the barrier will be eroded. I can certainly say for myself, that if I was faced with one decision which could jeopardise my lifestyle, career, mortgage, car, kids, etc, I would have some serious thinking to do. I'm not weak, just honest!
It isn't about a pilot making a conscious decision to ignore the rules, it is a case of external pressure not allowing him to see that rules are being broken. It is a human limitation. I know many may perhaps not be able to understand my logic, but I can clearly see how something clear cut and specific like the threat of demotion for not flying extra sectors can down the road lead to multiple incidents of landing with incorrect flap settings and at ridiculous speeds, orbits on finals that lack any situational awareness whatsoever, and the rushed approaches that lead to both. There may not be obvious pressure on that area of the operation, but if you are at risk of discipline for not doing what the company wants you to do and know you are working for a ruthless employer, then that pressure affects everything you do.
You had said that the problem to some extent lies with inexperienced Captains. It is really inexperienced management that I see. Management that is blatently not aware of the possible consequences of their style. Management that is not interested in aviation and has not taken any interest in developments in understanding of industry specific risk factors over the past 30 years in particular.
That to me is why this poor Captain and others like him have made mistakes that seem ridiculous to the rest of us. Phonecalls or not, the pressure is there.
Em.....
....... discuss!
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There is no way whatsoever that this approach can be blamed on RYR management, absolutely not. Nor is it because they are not Safety Cultured. I believe that this approach was caused by cr%p CRM and a pilot with a HIGH RISK approach to his/her job.
The ATPL holder is German and I believe HIS or HER authority should look at suspending the licence, simple as that. This molly coddling softly softly approach to rectifying incidents is all well and good but only applies to those airlines that have a highly disciplined workforce that has been, and here is the secret, hand picked and psychologically appraised prior to employment. This is the BIG problem at the LCCs and rapidly expanding airlines of Europe at the moment. The Personnel Selection at Ryanair is poor even though only about 50 percent get through selection. There is NO emphasis on Psych profile and an inexperienced personnel officer has a somewhat cursory glance at licence and logbooks whilst 90 percent of the selection is based on how the candidate flies the sim and their English skills. Pretty much all modern LC pilots have good hands, but their approach to risk is not as it would be in say BA. (That is why I would always choose to fly BA/KLM/Lufthansa before even my own airline)
To put it succinctly, we are running out of good candidates for employment, and of those left, some are undesirable as they are not as risk averse as a they need to be. My solution for the industry is to introduce better profiling of pilots through all stages of selection, training and checking.
Complaceny Vs Risk, a worthwhile research topic for Cranfield?
Please dont forget that RYR fly 25,000 flights per month, so maybe their incident rate is statistically lower than many others out there, but someone needs to crunch the numbers.
The ATPL holder is German and I believe HIS or HER authority should look at suspending the licence, simple as that. This molly coddling softly softly approach to rectifying incidents is all well and good but only applies to those airlines that have a highly disciplined workforce that has been, and here is the secret, hand picked and psychologically appraised prior to employment. This is the BIG problem at the LCCs and rapidly expanding airlines of Europe at the moment. The Personnel Selection at Ryanair is poor even though only about 50 percent get through selection. There is NO emphasis on Psych profile and an inexperienced personnel officer has a somewhat cursory glance at licence and logbooks whilst 90 percent of the selection is based on how the candidate flies the sim and their English skills. Pretty much all modern LC pilots have good hands, but their approach to risk is not as it would be in say BA. (That is why I would always choose to fly BA/KLM/Lufthansa before even my own airline)
To put it succinctly, we are running out of good candidates for employment, and of those left, some are undesirable as they are not as risk averse as a they need to be. My solution for the industry is to introduce better profiling of pilots through all stages of selection, training and checking.
Complaceny Vs Risk, a worthwhile research topic for Cranfield?
Please dont forget that RYR fly 25,000 flights per month, so maybe their incident rate is statistically lower than many others out there, but someone needs to crunch the numbers.
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Jambo,
There is no way whatsoever that this approach can be blamed on RYR management, absolutely not.
The Personnel Selection at Ryanair is poor even though only about 50 percent get through selection
Those two sentences don't go together.
However, I do see what you're saying and I agree with your angle. I also accept that given the number of RYR flights, if there is an incident, then it is statistically pretty likely to be a RYR flight.
All the same, regardless of the Captain in questions background, experience, etc., RYR can not be removed from the spotlight.
I might add that the regulator has an awful lot to answer for. If there ever is (and let's all hope there isn't) a major incident, the IAA will have blood on their hands too.
There is no way whatsoever that this approach can be blamed on RYR management, absolutely not.
The Personnel Selection at Ryanair is poor even though only about 50 percent get through selection
Those two sentences don't go together.
However, I do see what you're saying and I agree with your angle. I also accept that given the number of RYR flights, if there is an incident, then it is statistically pretty likely to be a RYR flight.
All the same, regardless of the Captain in questions background, experience, etc., RYR can not be removed from the spotlight.
I might add that the regulator has an awful lot to answer for. If there ever is (and let's all hope there isn't) a major incident, the IAA will have blood on their hands too.
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Yes Paddy, those sentences dont belong next to each other. My defence is of FLT OPS & Training management, not Commercial management, as they are in my opinion separate departments albeit strictly speaking under the headline General Management.
However, FLT OPS/Training management/intentions are sound. If I could be negative towards them they probably need to be more assertive towards the upper echelons demands and desires. They have developed very specific SOPs and have tried hard to train this type of approach out of us, for many years now.
The German reference is only that this is not JUST a RYR/IAA problem, the licensing authority must be seen to do something about the rogue individuals too! Shouldnt they? Doesnt matter from which country they are licensed in my opinion, as long as they are a bona fide JAR OPS approved NA, there is a rather interesting area!!
However, FLT OPS/Training management/intentions are sound. If I could be negative towards them they probably need to be more assertive towards the upper echelons demands and desires. They have developed very specific SOPs and have tried hard to train this type of approach out of us, for many years now.
The German reference is only that this is not JUST a RYR/IAA problem, the licensing authority must be seen to do something about the rogue individuals too! Shouldnt they? Doesnt matter from which country they are licensed in my opinion, as long as they are a bona fide JAR OPS approved NA, there is a rather interesting area!!
Totally agree with Jambo.
This was appaulling CRM from the Captain and doesnt just happen by chance.
He is/was an accident waiting to happen and does not deserve the priviledge of flying in the left seat.
This was appaulling CRM from the Captain and doesnt just happen by chance.
He is/was an accident waiting to happen and does not deserve the priviledge of flying in the left seat.
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Jambo,
I have to agree with a defence of any Training/Flight Ops departments. These are generally (although not always) run by pilots for pilots. There intentions are to improve the knowledge, skill and safety of al pilots in a company. I don't doubt that this is the case, even in RYR.
My problem is with "Commercial Management" as you call it. I have seen many cases in various airlines of training or ops departments having their hands tied by the "upper echelons". The attitude of an airline comes from the top down.
With the licencing thing, although I agree that the home state should be responsible, at the end of the day, it is the RYR training departement (undoubtedly with upper echelon tied hands) that are ultimately allowing these people to fly, not the German/French/Dutch/Whereverland authorities. An authority gives you the licence. The airline gives you the aircraft to fly.
I have to agree with a defence of any Training/Flight Ops departments. These are generally (although not always) run by pilots for pilots. There intentions are to improve the knowledge, skill and safety of al pilots in a company. I don't doubt that this is the case, even in RYR.
My problem is with "Commercial Management" as you call it. I have seen many cases in various airlines of training or ops departments having their hands tied by the "upper echelons". The attitude of an airline comes from the top down.
With the licencing thing, although I agree that the home state should be responsible, at the end of the day, it is the RYR training departement (undoubtedly with upper echelon tied hands) that are ultimately allowing these people to fly, not the German/French/Dutch/Whereverland authorities. An authority gives you the licence. The airline gives you the aircraft to fly.
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The commercial managers in Ryanair have "lost the run of themselves" and like to walk and talk like MOL throwing their weight around and keeping costs well under control. This does filter down through the whole company like a bad smell. But is it really the reason that some plonker throws his career down the pan by flying a seat of the pants approach into Cork? I really dont think so somehow.
The Ryanair FLT OPS management team have learnt from our (the pilots)mistakes over the last 21 years of operation, and have developed a solid set of operating practices. They are generally able to shoulder the BS from above and when incidents like these affect the perception of the shareholders, is exactly when they remould those upper echelon types and put them back in their place. However, to remain competetive and solvent, there must be a counter balance to FLT OPS and that is them. Without them, as pilots, we would spend spend spend on new gadgets and gizmos and have titles for dozens more people who spend all their flying lives at 'meetings' in Eurocontrol or National Authorities or manufacturers and end up trying to add fat and margins to areas that already have fat and margins, that is the nature of an airline with weak control over its management. And I dont think they end up any safer necessarily.
I was looking at the Easy Jet recruitment add for a new Chief Training Captain today. It stated the following requirement of the applicant, "strategic and highly commercial, coupled with charisma and diplomacy skills necessary to drive significant organisational and cultural change."
Are we witnessing a significant shift away from traditional training and operating culture that has been soooo ingrained for the last 40 years or so? Is the "commercial" the driving factor for all these modern day positions, whereby the poor soul sells himself for a 50K bonus, a nice title, but in reality is THE fall guy when the first accident rolls in?
So to reiterate to any of you airlines (like EZ) who it looks like are about to start 'changing' things, make sure that you beef up your selection processes, psychological profiling your pilots is really important if you want to avoid incidents like Cork, Skavska, Knock and Rome.
The Ryanair FLT OPS management team have learnt from our (the pilots)mistakes over the last 21 years of operation, and have developed a solid set of operating practices. They are generally able to shoulder the BS from above and when incidents like these affect the perception of the shareholders, is exactly when they remould those upper echelon types and put them back in their place. However, to remain competetive and solvent, there must be a counter balance to FLT OPS and that is them. Without them, as pilots, we would spend spend spend on new gadgets and gizmos and have titles for dozens more people who spend all their flying lives at 'meetings' in Eurocontrol or National Authorities or manufacturers and end up trying to add fat and margins to areas that already have fat and margins, that is the nature of an airline with weak control over its management. And I dont think they end up any safer necessarily.
I was looking at the Easy Jet recruitment add for a new Chief Training Captain today. It stated the following requirement of the applicant, "strategic and highly commercial, coupled with charisma and diplomacy skills necessary to drive significant organisational and cultural change."
Are we witnessing a significant shift away from traditional training and operating culture that has been soooo ingrained for the last 40 years or so? Is the "commercial" the driving factor for all these modern day positions, whereby the poor soul sells himself for a 50K bonus, a nice title, but in reality is THE fall guy when the first accident rolls in?
So to reiterate to any of you airlines (like EZ) who it looks like are about to start 'changing' things, make sure that you beef up your selection processes, psychological profiling your pilots is really important if you want to avoid incidents like Cork, Skavska, Knock and Rome.
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Captain Paddy - thank you for your well-considered post of 11.07. This has put flesh on the suspicion I had in my earlier comment.
I am glad that this thread has turned away from vilifying the pilot (deserving of more than a glorified rug dance) to the consideration of something which seems both fundamental and endemic in the transport world. Rather worrying, what?
I am glad that this thread has turned away from vilifying the pilot (deserving of more than a glorified rug dance) to the consideration of something which seems both fundamental and endemic in the transport world. Rather worrying, what?
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Jambo,
I understand your reservations about the effect of management culture on Joe Bloggs flying the line. However, would you agree that there are two main reasons why this guy could have done what he did.
Either he is a plonker with a bad attitude, no concept of CRM, and a monkey level of knowledge that means he can only operate effectively when things go right but inevitably scratches his armpits and makes strange noises when things go wrong. Or.... (or perhaps more realistically - And....)
Company culture filtered down from the top has had an adverse effect on the excess mental capacity of line pilots resulting in decisions that even the pilot himself would agree are ridiculous. Sort of like the idea that when you stretch fifty pieces of metal to their theoretical limits, some will be fine, some will be at breaking point and others will have broken already.
In case one, I blame the Company management while still being reluctant to point at training as I have seen how trainers can be forced to make decisions based on written guidance which is used literally. Monkey though he may be, RYR allowed him access to their equipment.
In case two, I blame the Company management.
It is not enough to say the guy had crap CRM and that's why it happened. Then all walk away and say it was a storm in a tea cup because he's been weeded out now and all is well. While I realise that you can keep going into more detail for ever if you're not careful, why was his CRM crap? And, more importantly, the company is running the risk of using normal line flights to discover which of their pilots are up to the job and which aren't. That's what training and checking is supposed to be for. You will always have a few slip through the loop, but I fear that this could be the first signs of the epidemic. For every public domain, media highlighted, AAIU report there are at least a dozen internally handled cases that the public aren't aware of.
I understand your reservations about the effect of management culture on Joe Bloggs flying the line. However, would you agree that there are two main reasons why this guy could have done what he did.
Either he is a plonker with a bad attitude, no concept of CRM, and a monkey level of knowledge that means he can only operate effectively when things go right but inevitably scratches his armpits and makes strange noises when things go wrong. Or.... (or perhaps more realistically - And....)
Company culture filtered down from the top has had an adverse effect on the excess mental capacity of line pilots resulting in decisions that even the pilot himself would agree are ridiculous. Sort of like the idea that when you stretch fifty pieces of metal to their theoretical limits, some will be fine, some will be at breaking point and others will have broken already.
In case one, I blame the Company management while still being reluctant to point at training as I have seen how trainers can be forced to make decisions based on written guidance which is used literally. Monkey though he may be, RYR allowed him access to their equipment.
In case two, I blame the Company management.
It is not enough to say the guy had crap CRM and that's why it happened. Then all walk away and say it was a storm in a tea cup because he's been weeded out now and all is well. While I realise that you can keep going into more detail for ever if you're not careful, why was his CRM crap? And, more importantly, the company is running the risk of using normal line flights to discover which of their pilots are up to the job and which aren't. That's what training and checking is supposed to be for. You will always have a few slip through the loop, but I fear that this could be the first signs of the epidemic. For every public domain, media highlighted, AAIU report there are at least a dozen internally handled cases that the public aren't aware of.
Last edited by captainpaddy; 6th Feb 2007 at 11:17. Reason: Clarification
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there is an article in the NY Times about Germans leaving Germany for other countries in part because of the strict hierarchy between colleagues in certain professions (addressing a head physician as "Herr Professor Doktor" for instance)
Perhaps if the other member of the flight crew had addressed his colleague as "Herr Kapitan" he might have been given a hearing?
Perhaps if the other member of the flight crew had addressed his colleague as "Herr Kapitan" he might have been given a hearing?
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just a few things
I am missing the comraderie thing in aviation a lot. It eases the workday and makes comments and recommendations easier to accept for everybody. The non comraderie thing is that people report each other for all sorts of nonsence as low as jealousy. This leads to tensions and unnecessary frictions and thus lowers safety considerably. So far about comraderie.
Someone also wrote German Gradutes leave the country
because the university structures are so hierarchic.(Article in the NYT). Well many graduates leave because they get an excellent! education in Germany and then ofcourse they are very interessting for the Americans who shower them with money to come across. Also another reason is that there is a weak link between universits and the industry to bring the first class german university research results into industrial application.(eg Fax machine, MP3 Player etc). The argument of Herr Professor or Herr Capitaen i see as the usual German bashing that some british unfortunately engage in.
Someone also wrote German Gradutes leave the country
because the university structures are so hierarchic.(Article in the NYT). Well many graduates leave because they get an excellent! education in Germany and then ofcourse they are very interessting for the Americans who shower them with money to come across. Also another reason is that there is a weak link between universits and the industry to bring the first class german university research results into industrial application.(eg Fax machine, MP3 Player etc). The argument of Herr Professor or Herr Capitaen i see as the usual German bashing that some british unfortunately engage in.
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Secret Memo
galacticosh
Article is available on line:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1343517.ece
Unlike the 2 KAL skippers that just lost their jobs for landing on the taxiway last month in Akita. They weren't demoted.
http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST...d.php?idx=4738
Article is available on line:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1343517.ece
Michael O’Leary, the Ryanair chief executive, has responded to the incidents by issuing a memo to all pilots telling them that they will be demoted the first time they make a dangerous approach and sacked for a second offence.
The memo, a copy of which has been obtained by The Times, states that a new disciplinary procedure is being introduced in response to a series of “high energy approach incidents over the past two years”.
Pilot unions said that the memo would force the problem underground, leaving pilots too frightened of losing their jobs to cooperate with efforts to find out why the incidents were happening.
The memo, a copy of which has been obtained by The Times, states that a new disciplinary procedure is being introduced in response to a series of “high energy approach incidents over the past two years”.
Pilot unions said that the memo would force the problem underground, leaving pilots too frightened of losing their jobs to cooperate with efforts to find out why the incidents were happening.
Korean Air has dismissed captain and co-pilot of Boeing 737-900 plane, which mistakenly touched down on a taxiway at Akita aiport of Japan on Jan.6,2007 instead of parallel runway narrowly avoiding disaster.