Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarachical system.
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Not acceptable
It's true there are always 2 sides to the story, however ....
1) No matter how bad the trainee may or not have been, the a/c is not the place to resolve such matters. Every credible and mature airline has processes to handle such issues.
2) Again no matter how bad or not the trainee is the training captain should have the skill and spare capacity to handle the problems with ease - that's his job. Sadly most airlines get it wrong and put pilots into a training position in the aircraft before they've honed their craft in the classroom or sim.
3) Korean Air recently issued a memo to all it's trainer to tell them NOT to socialise with trainees. I've had this confirmed by both Korean and Western check pilots at KAL.
4) KAL has some excellent training captains. It also has many that show the traits described by the F/O in question. Nitpicking is an extremely commonly used phrase here. Sadly it'll be many years before the "old guard" are replaced by the "new and enlightened" now occupying the right hand seat. (Just for the record, I'm not in the RHS but respect everyone of these F/Os I've met).
I wish the F/O in question every success.
1) No matter how bad the trainee may or not have been, the a/c is not the place to resolve such matters. Every credible and mature airline has processes to handle such issues.
2) Again no matter how bad or not the trainee is the training captain should have the skill and spare capacity to handle the problems with ease - that's his job. Sadly most airlines get it wrong and put pilots into a training position in the aircraft before they've honed their craft in the classroom or sim.
3) Korean Air recently issued a memo to all it's trainer to tell them NOT to socialise with trainees. I've had this confirmed by both Korean and Western check pilots at KAL.
4) KAL has some excellent training captains. It also has many that show the traits described by the F/O in question. Nitpicking is an extremely commonly used phrase here. Sadly it'll be many years before the "old guard" are replaced by the "new and enlightened" now occupying the right hand seat. (Just for the record, I'm not in the RHS but respect everyone of these F/Os I've met).
I wish the F/O in question every success.
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mash4077
I didn't say it was right, only that it seems to be the way of life within certain factions (read old, military pilots) at KAL. I suspect that it will take time to get rid of the 'old guard' in order to move closer to the 21st century. I hear that KAL is trying to produce more 'harmony in the cockpit'. The first thing they should do is to put more foreign captains in as LCP's but there still is the military mafia to overcome. Good luck on that - and good luck to all the F/O's.
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Korean cops aree never happy.
I could realize through out this thread they don`t agree with the system and they don`t like to fly with their Captains ( Koreans).
When they fly with an expat they isolate the poor guy .There are stories of wo nationals doing a pre-flight briefing in their language and asking to the expat in the end if he agreed...
It is normal an expat to fly 25 hours back and forth to NY without changing one word with his fellow cop.
AND if the expat mistake one call out which was supposed to be "cross-check" for simply "check" , this may be considered a serious violation to the SOP`s and reported to management .
So , what I can conclude is that korean Cops like nobody...
I could realize through out this thread they don`t agree with the system and they don`t like to fly with their Captains ( Koreans).
When they fly with an expat they isolate the poor guy .There are stories of wo nationals doing a pre-flight briefing in their language and asking to the expat in the end if he agreed...
It is normal an expat to fly 25 hours back and forth to NY without changing one word with his fellow cop.
AND if the expat mistake one call out which was supposed to be "cross-check" for simply "check" , this may be considered a serious violation to the SOP`s and reported to management .
So , what I can conclude is that korean Cops like nobody...
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cultural differences
This is a fascinating insight into the cultural differences debate and for my money an example of PPRUNE at its best!
From a "Western" perspective I guess, as I have no experience of "Eastern" flying culture, there are plenty of elements here that are downright alien to our way of doing things, but the job still gets done!
We dont have to look far though to identify plenty of cultural differences between different backgrounds/nationalities in the West, I cite for example how up-tight we tend to get with R/T phraseology in the UK, and how relaxed our visitors from over the pond can be, but who invented mass air travel and where do more people fly more miles by air?
To get to the point, CRM is like manners, voluntary. On check or under observation we all know what is expected and tend to conform with accepted best practice, but out on the line individuals quickly revert to type.
If an individual does not accept the benefit of crew co-operation, or feels that they have all the answers, just telling them that they are wrong will not change their behaviour. Only by persuasion and by discussion with their peers and those they respect will the message get through.
That is where we often fall short, to be truly effective the basic tennents of CRM (Communicaton, Leadership, Error Management, Stress/Fatigue management, Situational Awareness and Decision Making) should also
be demonstrated by management.
And that is where those with the big Egos reside.
From a "Western" perspective I guess, as I have no experience of "Eastern" flying culture, there are plenty of elements here that are downright alien to our way of doing things, but the job still gets done!
We dont have to look far though to identify plenty of cultural differences between different backgrounds/nationalities in the West, I cite for example how up-tight we tend to get with R/T phraseology in the UK, and how relaxed our visitors from over the pond can be, but who invented mass air travel and where do more people fly more miles by air?
To get to the point, CRM is like manners, voluntary. On check or under observation we all know what is expected and tend to conform with accepted best practice, but out on the line individuals quickly revert to type.
If an individual does not accept the benefit of crew co-operation, or feels that they have all the answers, just telling them that they are wrong will not change their behaviour. Only by persuasion and by discussion with their peers and those they respect will the message get through.
That is where we often fall short, to be truly effective the basic tennents of CRM (Communicaton, Leadership, Error Management, Stress/Fatigue management, Situational Awareness and Decision Making) should also
be demonstrated by management. And that is where those with the big Egos reside.
Last edited by Pollards; 1st Feb 2007 at 08:13. Reason: typo
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Management by fear!!
This is a sad way some airlines(awkwardly many eastern..)are run from management pilots. Also some tendency from people who are really insecure.
I´m happy to live and work in totaly different enviroment!
I´m happy to live and work in totaly different enviroment!
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WOW?
here i am considering coming to KAL on the B737-800 as expat captain.
i was at asiana 96-98 and can see how faiser could be telling the gospel truth. sorry that your health pressed you into leaving. i remembered when i first checked out as first officer on the 737-200 in alaska, i had a flight with a real ass of a captain and wanted to quit so bad, but i had just signed on a house purchase and needed the money very badly! now i are a captain... and still need the money.
i must make my decision tonight for the march 19 class.
good luck
i was at asiana 96-98 and can see how faiser could be telling the gospel truth. sorry that your health pressed you into leaving. i remembered when i first checked out as first officer on the 737-200 in alaska, i had a flight with a real ass of a captain and wanted to quit so bad, but i had just signed on a house purchase and needed the money very badly! now i are a captain... and still need the money.
i must make my decision tonight for the march 19 class.
good luck
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I interviewed with KAL in 11/06. I was offered a DEC position in 12/06. After considering the fundamental issues such as QOL and one's dignity versus the $$$$, I declined their offer.
Not withstanding the NASA medical, the interview with the pilot board was absurd to say the least. You wait outside of a room, await for a bell and viola, you are granted entrance to the KAL Inner Sanctum. Screw that crap! I don’t care… the tinker’s little bell was an indication of KAL’s culture and training philosophy… “subservience”. I know, I know... the old saying goes, "Cooperate and Graduate" applies in most circumstances, however, IMHO, one’s dignity to and the requirement to sign over your soul in order to successfully complete the training just isn’t worth it.
I would hope that the same KAL philosophy applies to the simulator portion of the training, since Boeing-Alteon provides that portion of the training.
By the way, while in training, and on duty, you will be a prisoner, er, be a resident of the Inchon Hyatt Regency Hotel. The accommodation are superior, but the cost for your existence along with a 50% discount is still rather steep.
Again, my QOL and self dignity far outweigh the $$$$$, which when added up really is not all that great compared to other contracts out there... again IMHO.
Oh by the way you’ll submit to their NASA medicals every six months... so good luck.
Not withstanding the NASA medical, the interview with the pilot board was absurd to say the least. You wait outside of a room, await for a bell and viola, you are granted entrance to the KAL Inner Sanctum. Screw that crap! I don’t care… the tinker’s little bell was an indication of KAL’s culture and training philosophy… “subservience”. I know, I know... the old saying goes, "Cooperate and Graduate" applies in most circumstances, however, IMHO, one’s dignity to and the requirement to sign over your soul in order to successfully complete the training just isn’t worth it.
I would hope that the same KAL philosophy applies to the simulator portion of the training, since Boeing-Alteon provides that portion of the training.
By the way, while in training, and on duty, you will be a prisoner, er, be a resident of the Inchon Hyatt Regency Hotel. The accommodation are superior, but the cost for your existence along with a 50% discount is still rather steep.
Again, my QOL and self dignity far outweigh the $$$$$, which when added up really is not all that great compared to other contracts out there... again IMHO.
Oh by the way you’ll submit to their NASA medicals every six months... so good luck.
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Oh dear, is the world not quite perfect for you? I guess coming as you do from NYC everywhere else must be quite a let down. Maybe those of us used to living with not quite perfection are better off by far that you stuck to your lofty ideals and didn't join us.
And as for being a prisoner at the Hyatt...I guess that coming from NYC you might not recgnize a quality hotel if you fell over one....and not only that,you can go for a long walk at night without getting mugged or getting cold from inadvertently standing in the shadow of such a giant ego.
Berating something you know nothing about on the basis of a 3 day visit might be common practice to you....but it is also a good clue as to why the rest of the world is just as happy not to be saddled with some Americans as colleagues. You come from a fine country...keep your views to yourself and you will materially improve its image.
And as for being a prisoner at the Hyatt...I guess that coming from NYC you might not recgnize a quality hotel if you fell over one....and not only that,you can go for a long walk at night without getting mugged or getting cold from inadvertently standing in the shadow of such a giant ego.
Berating something you know nothing about on the basis of a 3 day visit might be common practice to you....but it is also a good clue as to why the rest of the world is just as happy not to be saddled with some Americans as colleagues. You come from a fine country...keep your views to yourself and you will materially improve its image.
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Having instructed KAL capts I long ago decided not to use my free travel on KAL, one has to be there to understand how their culture invades good flight deck procedures, I still have a few friends teaching over there, had they not bought houses for women the dont like they would be long gone, the solution will only come when KAL understand that they must get these pilots out of the flight deck and replace them with those who can seperate their culture from the job at hand, untill then the situation will not improve.
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019360, you are pardon the term, are a putz. From your comments about NYC, its evident that you are from the shallow end of the gene pool and don't get out very much.
When did PPrune make you the official censor or critic of view points of opinions expressed within this forum?
FYI, I do know what I am talking about. I don't know what your limited back ground is, nor do I care to. I'm happy that I can be discriminating when it comes to accepting positions of employment, Perhaps, you too, when you mature, may be in the same position as most adults that can decline offers for employment, that may not meet with your standards.
Happy flying sir putz, er I mean 019360... I'm just not good with names.
As a side bar, the Whalers don't mind KAL since the majority of the captains are expats as are the check airmen. Therefore, for the most part, the western cockpit culture prevails.
When did PPrune make you the official censor or critic of view points of opinions expressed within this forum?
FYI, I do know what I am talking about. I don't know what your limited back ground is, nor do I care to. I'm happy that I can be discriminating when it comes to accepting positions of employment, Perhaps, you too, when you mature, may be in the same position as most adults that can decline offers for employment, that may not meet with your standards.
Happy flying sir putz, er I mean 019360... I'm just not good with names.
As a side bar, the Whalers don't mind KAL since the majority of the captains are expats as are the check airmen. Therefore, for the most part, the western cockpit culture prevails.
Last edited by captjns; 10th Feb 2007 at 00:50.
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captjns, you said,
"As a side bar, the Whalers don't mind KAL since the majority of the captains are expats as are the check airmen. Therefore, for the most part, the western cockpit culture prevails."
Who are the Whalers and where did you get your information that the majority of KAL captains are expats. That can't be further from the truth and the western cockpit only prevails when expats, who are the minority, are in command.
"As a side bar, the Whalers don't mind KAL since the majority of the captains are expats as are the check airmen. Therefore, for the most part, the western cockpit culture prevails."
Who are the Whalers and where did you get your information that the majority of KAL captains are expats. That can't be further from the truth and the western cockpit only prevails when expats, who are the minority, are in command.
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I got my information first hand at the dedicated crew room at the Hyatt Regency in Inchon during my interview with KAL. Also a number of colleagues and friends from Atlas, Polar, former Tower Air, United, Jade Cargo, and Delta took positions at KAL. Also an addition to the mix to the pilot group from the west are pilots from Qantas, Ansette, and Air New Zealand. KAL is continuing to interview and hire DECs from the west via various contracting firms such as CAC, GAP, Rishworth, to name a few. As for the 737 fleet, the same applies as well. KAL is interviewing in the neighborhood of about 12 per month, again DECs for the 737 fleet. The current captains who are nationals are transitioning to the Airbus fleet with some to the 777 and 747.
True, I may have been over zealous in the statement that all captains are from the west. However it seems the trend is to fill the left seat with those who understand the meaning of CRM, which was a problem at KAL in the past, and again which seems to be rearing its ugly head once again.
True, I may have been over zealous in the statement that all captains are from the west. However it seems the trend is to fill the left seat with those who understand the meaning of CRM, which was a problem at KAL in the past, and again which seems to be rearing its ugly head once again.
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Sooooperb
Cracking thread.
Oppression in the workplace is insidious, all too common, and a very tough nut indeed.
Would like to add more, but do not want to risk my anonymity.
IF there are people in KAL who are fighting from within...KEEP WORKING.
Thanks for this forum.
Oppression in the workplace is insidious, all too common, and a very tough nut indeed.
Would like to add more, but do not want to risk my anonymity.
IF there are people in KAL who are fighting from within...KEEP WORKING.
Thanks for this forum.
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jns's interview experience reminds me of a colleague who interviewed for a KAL MD-80 position back in the mid 90s. During the sim portion the Korean instructor kept tapping him on the shoulder and/or pointing with a long wooden pointer. Eventually my colleague got a little upset; turned to the instructor; and said, " if you touch me with the pointer one more time I'm going to take it away from you and shove it up your 
" Classic 
Needless to say he was not offered employment, nor did he want it after that episode.
Typhoonpilot
" Classic Needless to say he was not offered employment, nor did he want it after that episode.Typhoonpilot
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Having watched one of those "Seconds from Disaster" programmes last night, about a Korean Airlines flight into Guam, it occurred to me that as part of the dramatisation (presumed as a starting point to be based on CVR transcripts), the F/O and flight engineer were urging the captain to go around. Given the contents of this thread, and the recent one about the NZ 767 approach video, is it normal practice with Western-style CRM for a GA to be initiated if either pilot calls for it, with explanations of why (if needed) saved for when everything is back stable at altitude?
Last edited by llondel; 26th Feb 2007 at 17:55. Reason: Corrected the NZ aircraft type
is it normal practice with Western-style CRM for a GA to be initiated if either pilot calls for it,
The guy to my right is a highly trained individual. If he sees something that makes him deem it necessary to call a go-around, I'm out of there!!
Any progressive airline has policies that give the FO the right (indeed REQUIRES him to do so!!) to take over if the situation is life threatening.
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Things are a little different out East. My current Asian airline has only in the last couple of years, added to the ops manual, that FOs may call Go Around.
It still says the Captain will then decide if he wants to or not!
(And it's not KAL)
It still says the Captain will then decide if he wants to or not!
(And it's not KAL)
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Go Around Switch
If a co-pilot truly believes a go-around is necessary, and the captain is not responding, raising the gear handle will most likely get a response. Be prepared to catch hell, maybe even get fired. I wouldn't try this on short-final. How do you know the captain is not having a stroke, seizure, etc.?
At the very least get it on the voice recorder that you were screaming "Go Around!, Go Around!"
At the very least get it on the voice recorder that you were screaming "Go Around!, Go Around!"