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Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarachical system.

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Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarachical system.

Old 19th Jan 2007, 03:28
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Thumbs up Korean Air pilots still suffer from hierarchical system.

Hi, guys
Korean Air has over 120 aircrafts and 2,000 pilots now.
This company is trying to go back to the late 1990's that called the period of "bloody crash" including three consecutive fatal accidents in Guam, London and Shanghai. We lost three Boeing 747's.
There is a young and prominent pilot who recently quitted not only his job, but dream also. Here is his story. Thank you for reading.
-----------------------------------------------------
This is only the begining.
F/O Ko, Sung Hyuk
Lee, **** ****, The Epitome of Bigotry.
This is the story about an F/O whose only dream was to fly
aircraft whether it is big or small but pinioned by those few who lack even the infinitesimal vestige of essential human virtue and modesty. No, on second thought, This is the story not only about me but other F/Os who might have been inflicted by the diabolical process that was proudly christened by the company as F/O Grading/Rating System. Yes, I know it is not just the grading system that made what happened to me take place but I am sure no one can deny that they came up with this brilliant process in order to sharpen their puny and blunt little sword against anyone they don’t like. All I want is the safety of other fellow pilots and their families. I would like to let everyone know why I tendered the resignation and one of the many reasons behind my agonized decision I had to make during the abysmally dark four months after the incident that I am going to tell.
In September 2006, I got paired up with Lee, ****-**** on a cargo flight destined to Singapore. There was no problem whatsoever during the first leg, however, two days later everything began when I showed up for the next leg headed for Incheon via Hochimin. Right after the departure from Hochimin the minute we leveled off at a cruise altitude, He pulled out a small piece of ragged paper out of his pocket and began to write down things which I thought were a not-so-objective tentative layout of his grade upon my overall performance. After a few second long pause, the real purpose of the crumpled paper surfaced with the words being put out of his mouth. The fact that, I didn’t make any call during the two day stay in Singapore must have made him really mad. He said, “You should know better than that.” “You should have called me( for breakfast, lunch, dinner and other various activities that do not have anything to do with my duty, I assume).” He turned into a nitpicker to use the petty minor errors--I am unable to find a proper expression for those-- that I made and he found them with unbelievable perseverance during the seven hour flight. Enumerating some of those trifles, on a maintenance log book I filled in the local date space with the year 2006 along with the date. The new FOM says the year is to be omitted. Yes, I flipped on his weather radar switch right before take off while he was initiating the take-off roll. He maintained that his FD and weather radar switches belong to his area of responsibility so I should not have touched them. The rest of the minor errors are of the same kind and of little worth mentioning. If he wanted to be so meticulous about regulations I wondered why he kept smoking throughout the flight with tons of fuel and precious but sometimes downright dangerous cargo. While the aircraft was being loaded in Hochimin he almost set the galley on fire by heating up his lunch in the oven without knowing that one of the local ground staff left one pack of instant porridge in the oven. Then he ran amuck with foam in his mouth trying to find the culprit who put it into the oven. But I think he was the one who pulled the trigger and the ground staff only provided him with a bullet. It is very ironic that an individual who wants to be very precise about regulations couldn’t care less about the real safety of the aircraft.
After the hellish 7 hour flight the hidden card he pulled out of his sleazy sleeve upon landing at Incheon airport was my company check coming up in Dec. I didn’t know that he was DLCP then but he said he was going to make sure I was going to “one-hundred-percent-fail” at the company check. I could not believe what I heard. As you all know one month before the company check ride everyone has to take the oral test from one of LCPs. I was assigned to a room right next to the one that had Lee, ****-****. I was alone with another examiner for the three hour test. Furthermore, the words that carved an indelible mark in my brain were “Have you flown with Captain Lee lately?” “Not getting along with LCPs would inevitably make your life with the company much harder.” He was telling me to “cozy up” not only to LCPs but to other captains by doing what all of us had usually been doing, going out for dinner with captains, drink as much beer and wine as they want, do whatever they want whenever they want, apple-polishing is the word of choice that came into my mind then. Lee, ****-**** had been putting his money where his sordid mouth was in order to really make sure I fail. This guy did seem to take no prisoners.
One month later I failed at the routine company check with another LCP of that ilk, who was PIC. It does not matter whether the check ride was fair or not but one thing is sure. The one I flew with on the check flight didn’t know any more than I did in terms of knowledge and during debriefing he was unable to answer my questions and offered me wrong answers. As I mentioned above at the beginning, this whole story is only one of the many reasons that made me decide to fold my wings, however, before I leave the company that I used to love, I would like to show you gangrenous canker that deepens and widens at a more rapid rate than ever. For the last few days I saw why this fatal infection wouldn’t heal; because of the unmitigated lies Lee, Yong-Sang is telling which the henchmen around him hypnotize themselves with. To make matters worse the company seems to think that this whole event was the result of a foolhardy decision made by one young F/O on a whim. I don’t want to redeem my status with the company, like I said, I don’t want to work as a pilot any more. This writing purports that I can shed even the faintest light on the abscess so that it does not fester any more and deeper. If the company does procrastinate any longer they might have to maim its limbs. Prosthesis can’t replace its original counterpart and remember the psychological damage it has to endure for the long years to come.

Last edited by faiser; 12th Feb 2007 at 07:53. Reason: correction on typo
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 19:23
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If the above is true, it is exactly why I would never fly(on) an HL reg. aircraft.
After years of spending hours locked up in a small room with another person high above it all, i really wonder if people lose their minds.
there is no excuse for a captain to be like that, even if the F/O makes the GPWS go off a few times

my personal opinion of pilots of this nature is that they are ill and use
the cockpit as an avenue for torturing other people, i really believe
some of these guys who act like this kick their dog when they go home.
Time and time again its these types that bend metal.
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 21:05
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.. but does it help if western pilots arrive and try to make eastern pilots fly the western way, or should we be helping them to fly the eastern way, but make it safer? Discuss, with particular attention to the fact that eastern pilots have no understanding of or feel for the 'western way'.
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 21:33
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Am I allowed to use the word : ASSHOLE on this forum...if not, please edit it out to read A!@#$%^&*()


Now, there are pilots like that all over the world...not just in Korea. There are pilots who break the rules in their own flying, yet suck up enough to become training pilots/instructors or whatever you like to call them. Excellence is its own reward and you should be excellent for your own reasons, no one elses

My advice to the copilot: this is the way it is many places...search for another job somewhere else and when you do get to be captain, be kind and like a good teacher...don't be a teacher who rapes children.


I hope this translates well to you native language.
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 22:42
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Hi there Ko Sung Hyuk,

The captain you flew with and caused you so much harassment has a serious attitude problem.
He probably has a miserable life, is not loved by his relatives and friends. The loser is trying to hold on to the only thing he has left, and that's his EGO.

As stated in a previous posting, you will find assholes like this in any profession. I hope you will find a suitable (flying) way out of this.....
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 23:57
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Seoul food

Excellence is its own reward. Very true and nice to hear someone write along those lines – its been a long time since I’ve heard that. Only a shame that it doesn’t come out more often in the right way. More often then not excellence appears to mean trying to out do the other guy….(or girl as it is now)

It is in all levels of aviation and is unfortunate that this kind of thing manifests its self. I have seen crew fall foul of such things and it is not nice. I would not and could not treat someone who I fly with in such a manner.
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 01:04
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B17heavy

thanks for the words about excellence. that should be its own thread someday!
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 01:33
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Oh dear, one more time here in Pprune we have a poor FO with hurt feelings. Of course we do not get to see the side of the Captain, just the poor very low time FO's side of the story.

Sorry, no tears from me.
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 01:56
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To be sure: Until we hear the other side of the story, it's just another F/O wonder boy wanna-be-captain-early sob story.
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 02:17
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This is a situation where I believe the Captain is completely and utterly wrong.
Fighting with a crewmember is fine on a water vessel at 13kts.Not at 450
I dont care how incompetent a crew member is, being so outwardly caustic
raises the capts bloodpressure and makes the F/O feel every move he makes is wrong. Now you have 2 pilots operating marginally at best.

I feel bad for the F/O because (now im assuming here) For him to be in the right seat at KE he must be able to keep the blue side up.

I once had a flight with a certain person who was soo damn rude and purely evil that I told him 'if your so perfect its your ****ing airplane' Gave him the controls and let him fumble his way home. Radios and all...

Sometimes you need to stick up for yourself.

Ill end this post with this..
A pilots certificate is a license for A**holes to be BIGGER A**holes
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 03:44
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As a Korean copilot, I would sue Korean Airlines and the LCP in court.
I know in Korea you won't win, but that's not the point. You will make the situation a public situation and embarrass Korean Airlines.

Korean Airlines will end up firing the Captain for causing the embarassing situation in an effort to SAVE FACE. Which is very important in Eastern cultures.

You have nothing to loose and everything to gain from your forced resignation.
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 20:57
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cross-examniation request from me....

Hello, I am the F/O who wrote the long and rather boring original message

and thank you very much for allowing your precious time to read my

humble writing let alone for spending time to write guys....

One thing that I would like to tell you is that I specifically requested that the

problematic captain turn up for cross-examination with me present if he thought I

plastered the writing with things that he did not do or agree to....but he would not show

up....The reason for my request was that I was told he chimed in with

his own story that was exact antithesis of mine...I am now more than willing to take a

lie-detector test...

Last edited by simyoke; 21st Jan 2007 at 04:22. Reason: clarification
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 22:16
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One more hazard of the two-man crew - no witnesses....
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 02:33
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I know that sometimes you end up stuck in the cockpit with someone you would just as soon kill, but there has to be a paper trail before they can just can you. Presumably this FO has flown with others? It seems like there should be more to this story than one FO cratering his career because of one guy he had a problem with?
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 02:44
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Good point xsbank, the truth will come to light.
Anyway, fighting in the cockpit is bad form.
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 02:44
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Originally Posted by Huck
One more hazard of the two-man crew - no witnesses....
What about CVR?
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 03:18
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What about circuit breaker?....And I can add that doing same at 14 knots on a ship is just as dangerous as 450 knots.
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 03:59
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not ideal

The captain might not have been ideal but the FO certainly has to grow up and see what the real world is....

Best of luck to all.
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 04:40
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Thanks for the advice but...

I meant to say this for Boeing man.....

The main reason that I left Korean Air is of course not the capt. but my health problem. I guess I am old enough to know what the real world is like. The fact that Korean Air Crew Union website has been flooded with tons of similar messages from many copilots with simliar experiences (a lot of which involve the same capt.) since I first posted my message bears me out ,I presume. Some of the fatal crashes happened years ago as most of us know, were closely related to the oppressive cockpit ambience requiring many F/Os be only submissive to the captains, which rendred copilots unable to do their job. This is not just me crying for a cuddly teddy bear but many more trying to stave off future accidents. After all, we are doing this for a living aren't we?

Last edited by simyoke; 28th Jan 2007 at 11:54. Reason: clarification
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Old 21st Jan 2007, 10:51
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You got the point.

Originally Posted by xsbank
I know that sometimes you end up stuck in the cockpit with someone you would just as soon kill, but there has to be a paper trail before they can just can you. Presumably this FO has flown with others? It seems like there should be more to this story than one FO cratering his career because of one guy he had a problem with?
A lot of F/Os in Korean Air thinking of moving to another airlines. Some of them executed their Exodus already with sueing KAL and knowing that it will be tough.

The situation Simyoke is in that's not only he has,but most of FOs in Korean Air might have had, are having and will have been. I'm 100 % sure that.

One more example, one of the pilots who left that company, who was supposed to get promoted as a captain. Why? Since he is sick and tired with the failure of Korean air's poor management so as to leave his home even though he almost went through his hardship.
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