Easy Jet - Emergency landing into John Lennon, Liverpool
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Bearcat -
I don't know what your beef is but saying
really shows that we are 2 nations divided by a common language (If you are from across the pond), otherwise, your grasp of the written English is at fault, not my interpretation of the rules.
A PAN gets you priority - the figures for PAN or MAYDAY have been printed in posts below, though the two posters have actually written a slightly different interpretation (one of those posters happens to be you, bearcat - the other one is fox niner).
Some people might argue that a PAN is not an emergency call... but it is.
The call "fuel priority" means, and gets under 99% of normal circumstances, nothing... the pilot SHOULD be asked if he is declaring an emergency, and when he does so, he is then afforded the proper priority.
As an ATCO, I don't care how many tons of fuel that a pilot has - its the call PAN or MAYDAY that gets my attention, it's up to the pilot to make the call.
Good airmanship dictates to me that if holding in bad weather or in long delays, and fuel is starting to become an issue, a pilot tells me that he will have to divert in x amount of minutes, or his fuel may become critical in x amount of minutes, thereby allowing me and my colleagues to be ready and to pre warn people.
In those situations, we as ATCOs tend to be very busy as well, so a call out of the blue is not ideal, and a better service would be provided with a bit of pre warning.
So bearcat, I think you will find that if I went to the CAA with my licence and thay asked me about fuel emergencies, I would walk out within 10 minutes with my licence intact.
I am a current ATCO, have flown professionally in a past life and have been in the aviation industry for a number of years (though not as long as a lot of the posters on PPrune).
Teamilkandsugar -
a PAN call gets called whenever a pilot feels that his A/C, a person within it or a vessel or person within sight is in danger..
As far as I am concerned it gets called whenever the hell the captain of the aircraf sees fit, for whatever reason..... I am not there to question that decision, subsequent paperwork will show whether it was warranted or not.
IMHO - I would rather have someone call a PAN or a MAYDAY first, then if they can, they downgrade it. Better that than not call it and end up in a snotty heap.
Fly the A/C (carry out the immediate actions), Navigate it, Communicate. After the subsequent actions have been carried out, an emergency call can be downgraded as the captain sees fit.
I don't know what your beef is but saying
"Therefore, in a way, Shaggy is correct. It really is, all semantics"....says Anything.
Your comments are noted.....why not send your comments and your licence into the CAA.
Your comments are noted.....why not send your comments and your licence into the CAA.
A PAN gets you priority - the figures for PAN or MAYDAY have been printed in posts below, though the two posters have actually written a slightly different interpretation (one of those posters happens to be you, bearcat - the other one is fox niner).
Some people might argue that a PAN is not an emergency call... but it is.
The call "fuel priority" means, and gets under 99% of normal circumstances, nothing... the pilot SHOULD be asked if he is declaring an emergency, and when he does so, he is then afforded the proper priority.
As an ATCO, I don't care how many tons of fuel that a pilot has - its the call PAN or MAYDAY that gets my attention, it's up to the pilot to make the call.
Good airmanship dictates to me that if holding in bad weather or in long delays, and fuel is starting to become an issue, a pilot tells me that he will have to divert in x amount of minutes, or his fuel may become critical in x amount of minutes, thereby allowing me and my colleagues to be ready and to pre warn people.
In those situations, we as ATCOs tend to be very busy as well, so a call out of the blue is not ideal, and a better service would be provided with a bit of pre warning.
So bearcat, I think you will find that if I went to the CAA with my licence and thay asked me about fuel emergencies, I would walk out within 10 minutes with my licence intact.
I am a current ATCO, have flown professionally in a past life and have been in the aviation industry for a number of years (though not as long as a lot of the posters on PPrune).
Teamilkandsugar -
....and a PAN is declared at what point...?
As far as I am concerned it gets called whenever the hell the captain of the aircraf sees fit, for whatever reason..... I am not there to question that decision, subsequent paperwork will show whether it was warranted or not.
IMHO - I would rather have someone call a PAN or a MAYDAY first, then if they can, they downgrade it. Better that than not call it and end up in a snotty heap.
Fly the A/C (carry out the immediate actions), Navigate it, Communicate. After the subsequent actions have been carried out, an emergency call can be downgraded as the captain sees fit.
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EGPFlyer & BOAC
My understanding of the rules and regs are exactly as you have quoted.
ie: If I am "expecting" to land with less than final reserve, I request a "priority approach". My understanding is that ATC do not "accept" that statement to afford me priority handling and then would reply along the lines of...
"...are you declaring an emergency?"
Well, I am not declaring a "Mayday" as I have not got down to less than final reserve fuel, and so therefore can only declare a "PAN".
I was not under the impression that declaring just a "PAN" was sufficient to get you prioirty approach given these circumstances....
...this of course doesn't even take into consideration flying to countries that do not even recognise the word "pan" and if you ever used it, you would be met with complete and utter silence from the foreign controller.
My understanding of the rules and regs are exactly as you have quoted.
ie: If I am "expecting" to land with less than final reserve, I request a "priority approach". My understanding is that ATC do not "accept" that statement to afford me priority handling and then would reply along the lines of...
"...are you declaring an emergency?"
Well, I am not declaring a "Mayday" as I have not got down to less than final reserve fuel, and so therefore can only declare a "PAN".
I was not under the impression that declaring just a "PAN" was sufficient to get you prioirty approach given these circumstances....
...this of course doesn't even take into consideration flying to countries that do not even recognise the word "pan" and if you ever used it, you would be met with complete and utter silence from the foreign controller.
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teamilkandsugar -
rest assured if you call a PAN in the UK, for whatever reason, you will be afforded a priority approach to the duty runway at the very least.
A MAYDAY will get you that priority approach to any runway, duty or not, correct landing direction or not.
I can only talk of what happens (or should happen) in the UK.
rest assured if you call a PAN in the UK, for whatever reason, you will be afforded a priority approach to the duty runway at the very least.
A MAYDAY will get you that priority approach to any runway, duty or not, correct landing direction or not.
I can only talk of what happens (or should happen) in the UK.
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tm&s - the MAYDAY does not depend on actually being below final reserve, but on the fact that you WILL land below that.
EG FR is 1200kg
I have 1500 in tanks
I need 400kg to fly my alternate = MAYDAY
I have 1700 kg in tanks, normal diversion routing (LGW-STN say,) might be via Woodley which would require 600kg (all figures examples). Then I would PROBABLY declare a PAN. If I did not get (and I'm sure I would!) an expeditious routing I go up to MAYDAY.
That's how I see it. It is fairly simple in my mind and I hope that accords with the ATC view.
Europe: MAYDAY in both cases
EG FR is 1200kg
I have 1500 in tanks
I need 400kg to fly my alternate = MAYDAY
I have 1700 kg in tanks, normal diversion routing (LGW-STN say,) might be via Woodley which would require 600kg (all figures examples). Then I would PROBABLY declare a PAN. If I did not get (and I'm sure I would!) an expeditious routing I go up to MAYDAY.
That's how I see it. It is fairly simple in my mind and I hope that accords with the ATC view.
Europe: MAYDAY in both cases
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BOAC
Point taken and yes, that's what I meant (even though I didn't put it as well as you did in your previous post)!
anotherthing
Thanks for the info - interesting discussion.
I hope I never have to test the theories too soon!
Point taken and yes, that's what I meant (even though I didn't put it as well as you did in your previous post)!
anotherthing
Thanks for the info - interesting discussion.
I hope I never have to test the theories too soon!
ex-Tanker
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In circles
Cat and BOAC,
Thanks for the support.
Director,
We've chatted before in more pleasant terms, I think you've been at the beer!
I think the thread shows that:
!. Low fuel needs approach priority
2. At the moment the only way to get this is some kind of emergency call
3. Without this some controllers / other pilots are suspicious of cheating
4. Many people are confused about it and
5. Some people don't realise a captain can (should) always order enough
fuel, whatever the company system is (easyJet encouraged it when I was
there)
My suggestion was to cut through this fog of rules and misconceptions by establishing a fuel call, which gets you priority without triggering all the rest of the reactions. Any use of this procedure should require a report after landing - just as a Pan or Mayday does now, to prevent cheating.
Our fire service / rescue boys are sterling fellows - ready to go all the time.
False alarms don't help them.
Now instead of referring continually to the rules as they are and going in circles, why don't we all sit down with the JAA people and get a better procedure? It isn't that hard.
FC.
Thanks for the support.
Director,
We've chatted before in more pleasant terms, I think you've been at the beer!
I think the thread shows that:
!. Low fuel needs approach priority
2. At the moment the only way to get this is some kind of emergency call
3. Without this some controllers / other pilots are suspicious of cheating
4. Many people are confused about it and
5. Some people don't realise a captain can (should) always order enough
fuel, whatever the company system is (easyJet encouraged it when I was
there)
My suggestion was to cut through this fog of rules and misconceptions by establishing a fuel call, which gets you priority without triggering all the rest of the reactions. Any use of this procedure should require a report after landing - just as a Pan or Mayday does now, to prevent cheating.
Our fire service / rescue boys are sterling fellows - ready to go all the time.
False alarms don't help them.
Now instead of referring continually to the rules as they are and going in circles, why don't we all sit down with the JAA people and get a better procedure? It isn't that hard.
FC.
Well said FC.
I also think ATC, aerodrome operators and emergency services should get together to provide a more comensurate response to these incidents. If the Easy yesterday had no other problem than a PAN (in accordance with low fuel states detailed above), it seems a tragic waste that a life was lost because an emergency vehicle was speeding to assist. Was external attendance required? How much notice did they get when the aircraft routed SS to GP at 230kts?
It reminds me of an incident at Edinburgh a few years ago. Tornado aborts take off due bird strike. Controller calls an AGI due hot brakes. A fleet of 8 fire engines and 20 ambulances turn up. For a crew of 2.
I also think ATC, aerodrome operators and emergency services should get together to provide a more comensurate response to these incidents. If the Easy yesterday had no other problem than a PAN (in accordance with low fuel states detailed above), it seems a tragic waste that a life was lost because an emergency vehicle was speeding to assist. Was external attendance required? How much notice did they get when the aircraft routed SS to GP at 230kts?
It reminds me of an incident at Edinburgh a few years ago. Tornado aborts take off due bird strike. Controller calls an AGI due hot brakes. A fleet of 8 fire engines and 20 ambulances turn up. For a crew of 2.
DP has summed it up much better than I did a lot of posts ago. Mayday/Pan procedures with ATC for fuel shortage etc can remain unchanged BUT outside services response will be arranged comensurate with need. How this would be organised I don't know, but the issue should certainly be aired at the inquest on the unfortunate motorist, and ideally now. A similar incident occurred some years ago near L'pool Airport when a police car attending a minor incident collided with another car, fortunately without serious injury.
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All,
ATC will react in an appropriate manner when you declare a PAN and state that it is due to a fuel shortage etc. If the Easyjet diverted to LPL and had declared a fuel shortage then there would have been no need for ATC to declare a full emergency. However, if the pilot gave more information on the problem other than just a diversion because he had reached fuel minimums then ATC would make the approriate response.
At this time we do not have the full facts, try not to be tempted to speculate over whether this was an overreaction.
ATC will react in an appropriate manner when you declare a PAN and state that it is due to a fuel shortage etc. If the Easyjet diverted to LPL and had declared a fuel shortage then there would have been no need for ATC to declare a full emergency. However, if the pilot gave more information on the problem other than just a diversion because he had reached fuel minimums then ATC would make the approriate response.
At this time we do not have the full facts, try not to be tempted to speculate over whether this was an overreaction.
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Everyone still seems to be arguing about the UK. What happens outside UK? The empire went decades ago.Teamilksugar is the only other one to make any comment about the original thought from F.C. which was to find an internationally agreed terminology to use in this scenario.
Suggestions here and on a postcard to JAA/ICAO.
But, firstly, is PAN respected outside UK? Anyone had any experiences? From the ATCO's point of view I agree totally that, to have everyone kicking the ball in the same direction, it would be helpful to state the time until you have to do something else; leave the hold to land, divert, what ever it might be.
Only had to do such a thing once; heavy snow in the old MUC. Long holding and snow clearing delays. All unforecast. The G/A route went opposite to our diversion route. A simple call to ATC, that in the event of a G/A it would be an immediate diversion and a turn direct to the ALT, not standard G/A, would be required. All agreed and planned in advance by everyone on the team. Fortunately, all unnecessary in the end.
All other diversions have been handled excellently by ATC, but none under nervous conditions. When it's time to go, it's time to go and don't waste time thinking about it.
Suggestions here and on a postcard to JAA/ICAO.
But, firstly, is PAN respected outside UK? Anyone had any experiences? From the ATCO's point of view I agree totally that, to have everyone kicking the ball in the same direction, it would be helpful to state the time until you have to do something else; leave the hold to land, divert, what ever it might be.
Only had to do such a thing once; heavy snow in the old MUC. Long holding and snow clearing delays. All unforecast. The G/A route went opposite to our diversion route. A simple call to ATC, that in the event of a G/A it would be an immediate diversion and a turn direct to the ALT, not standard G/A, would be required. All agreed and planned in advance by everyone on the team. Fortunately, all unnecessary in the end.
All other diversions have been handled excellently by ATC, but none under nervous conditions. When it's time to go, it's time to go and don't waste time thinking about it.
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The Emergency that was declared was that of a “Local Emergency” what if any, is the difference from “Full Emergency”? Whose call is it once an Emergency is declared to decide Full or Local?
Why in this case not just declare “PAN”?
Did
Why in this case not just declare “PAN”?
Did
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Interesting thread, there is a way forward - again, referring to the UK in the main as this is what I know a bit of, and it is were the incident took place.
As ATCOs, we always ask what the nature of the emergency is when a pilot calls a PAN or MAYDAY. As an area controller, I or my supervisor would pass that on to the relevant people, including the tower at the airfield the aircraft was going to.
It is easy enough to categorise PANs for different levels of response or call out, levels of response that would be commensurate with the emergency.
A MAYDAY due fuel, when the pilot states he might not make the runway, would get the whole shooting match out, whereas a PAN due to the A/C landing below the required minima, as per the posts above, would not receive the same reception i.e. fire crews would not come screaming out from all manner of places etc. (The above are just very simplified examples of how one could categorise emergencies).
Emergencies in military towers certainly used to be (and maybe still are) dealt with in this way, whereby an emergency broadcast is made, and amplified by telling any members of the emergency services that are not required to stay put (but in not such a verbose manner!)
As ATCOs, we always ask what the nature of the emergency is when a pilot calls a PAN or MAYDAY. As an area controller, I or my supervisor would pass that on to the relevant people, including the tower at the airfield the aircraft was going to.
It is easy enough to categorise PANs for different levels of response or call out, levels of response that would be commensurate with the emergency.
A MAYDAY due fuel, when the pilot states he might not make the runway, would get the whole shooting match out, whereas a PAN due to the A/C landing below the required minima, as per the posts above, would not receive the same reception i.e. fire crews would not come screaming out from all manner of places etc. (The above are just very simplified examples of how one could categorise emergencies).
Emergencies in military towers certainly used to be (and maybe still are) dealt with in this way, whereby an emergency broadcast is made, and amplified by telling any members of the emergency services that are not required to stay put (but in not such a verbose manner!)
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
It seems slightly bizarre to me that some of you are arguing that declaring a PAN in regard to fuel state would not require the approriate response from the emergency services. There seems to be an (erroneous, imho) asumption that a PAN call is just some grey area to be used if you have some doubt about making the field with the legal reserves. Just using the weather conditions from yesterday as an example, the chances of going missed were extremely high, the chances of the diversion now being marginal were far higher, so if you add low fuel to that equation, I for one would be relieved to know that the emergency services were in place and aware of my predicament.
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Rat -
- no. Going over old ground here. It has been known to UK aviators for a long time that PAN is not recognised in many non-UK European countries. Whether a 'fuel emergency' exists in, say, Spain, I know not, so it would be a MAYDAY if required for me. Perhaps a start on getting that standardised with ICAO/JAA would be beneficial, and let's just run with FC's idea of getting a UK system in place?
DidI - I think this has been covered before on PPRune, and I do not believe there is such a thing as a PAN for ATC. I undertsand that the guidelines for local/full are pretty-well laid down in the SATC rules, but someone can advise on that. I'm not certain there is much 'discretion' for a controller.
But, firstly, is PAN respected outside UK? Anyone had any experiences?
DidI - I think this has been covered before on PPRune, and I do not believe there is such a thing as a PAN for ATC. I undertsand that the guidelines for local/full are pretty-well laid down in the SATC rules, but someone can advise on that. I'm not certain there is much 'discretion' for a controller.
I think the point is that if you get down to final reserve, you are indeed in imediate peril. Any further delay or failure could well result in fuel exhastion and a crash, so having the fire trucks and meat wagons is probably appropriate.
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I think the point is that if you get down to final reserve, you are indeed in imediate peril
(Used to take-off with less not much more than that in a Lightning Mk 3
)
A pilot (in the UK) may declare a PAN or MAYDAY. The tower would declare a full emergency, local standby, aircraft accident imminent, etc depending on which was the most appropriate (according to local procedures)
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Right way Up-
Thank you for the inside info, its nice see no pressure being put on crews by EZY managment. Do you know if the flight in question departed with min fuel or did they add extra due conditions?
FC- I second your suggestions about a specific fuel call. But considering the current status where PAN only will be understood and actioned upon by UK and a few more northern european nations, MAYDAY is still the only option in rest of the world. The important issue is to provide ATC with as much info as possible regarding the remaining fuel so they can make an assessment of which level of emergency services need to be activated.
Paperwork is preferable to the consequences..
Thank you for the inside info, its nice see no pressure being put on crews by EZY managment. Do you know if the flight in question departed with min fuel or did they add extra due conditions?
FC- I second your suggestions about a specific fuel call. But considering the current status where PAN only will be understood and actioned upon by UK and a few more northern european nations, MAYDAY is still the only option in rest of the world. The important issue is to provide ATC with as much info as possible regarding the remaining fuel so they can make an assessment of which level of emergency services need to be activated.
Paperwork is preferable to the consequences..
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I don't think it's that. I guess I was surprised that this case was considered serious enough to warrant cancelling ops. Perhaps this case was more serious than I thought. Is this level of response allways triggered automatically for fuel state PANs?
BLE,
I would not know what fuel they departed with. In some ways that is academic. Say you departed with 2 hours extra fuel and held at destination for two hours before diverting you would be in the same position as a crew who had taken flight plan fuel and diverted immediately. The most important thing is the decision making process once airborne.
I would not know what fuel they departed with. In some ways that is academic. Say you departed with 2 hours extra fuel and held at destination for two hours before diverting you would be in the same position as a crew who had taken flight plan fuel and diverted immediately. The most important thing is the decision making process once airborne.