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Continental 757 Lands on Taxiway at EWR

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Continental 757 Lands on Taxiway at EWR

Old 3rd Nov 2006, 17:45
  #81 (permalink)  
buscapt
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Originally Posted by FLCH
OK Worldpilot, the Captain of that flight is a good friend of mine, and severely dislike people that shoot first and ask questions later. Please think before posting absolute statements...lest you be jumped by others...
I am new to the forum and find the discussion facinating on many levels. I had heard the Captain on this flight was not new to the Capt seat but new to the 757. Is this true?

From a human factors point of view and my own experience, this has far reaching implications. I spent 6 years in the right seat of the A/319/320. When I upgraded to Capt I was overwhelmed with frustration because little things were dropping through the crack...unthinkable things that never would have been missed before. The cause was not stupidity but mental orientation readjustment. Switches you automatically know the location of must be placed in a "new mental location." I am not incinuating this Capt was preoccupied with switch location. I am saying that brain byte usage on changed "automatic" behavior prevents brain byte usage on what others would see as the obvious.

If in fact that is not the case with Capt experience on this particular incident, I would suggest filing this away for that upgrade or plane changes. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to properly focus "brain bytes"
 
Old 3rd Nov 2006, 20:41
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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buscapt,
I do SO agree with your post.
And please, could anybody who was going to make hoohoo and heehee noises in answer to this post, first state formally that they HAVE NEVER switched on the windscreen wipers when intending to signal left.... shortly after having changed cars, or while driving an unfamiliar hire car abroad.

Oh, and.... captain? Never having flown anything with a sidestick, I can't even begin to imagine how you can suddenly swap at any time from a righthand sidestick to a lefthand one.
I would have thought it would take weeks, if not months to "reprogram" all your mental reflexes.....
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Old 3rd Nov 2006, 22:44
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Just a bit surprised that no one has yet mentioned the incident with SU at BCN:
http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/E...005_IN_ENG.pdf
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Old 3rd Nov 2006, 23:22
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Originally Posted by ChristiaanJ
buscapt,
I do SO agree with your post.
And please, could anybody who was going to make hoohoo and heehee noises in answer to this post, first state formally that they HAVE NEVER switched on the windscreen wipers when intending to signal left.... shortly after having changed cars, or while driving an unfamiliar hire car abroad.
Oh, and.... captain? Never having flown anything with a sidestick, I can't even begin to imagine how you can suddenly swap at any time from a righthand sidestick to a lefthand one.
I would have thought it would take weeks, if not months to "reprogram" all your mental reflexes.....
I find it hard to believe that you just hop from one side to the other from one day to the next without doing some simulator practice to retrain your brain to use your other hand. This is not a rental car but a commercial airliner operation...
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 00:35
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On the light side. I was at the dentist the day after this happened and his assistant knows I am not a pilot but that I have an interest in aviaton.

She asked if I had heard about what had happened at Newark and went on to say she could not understand how a pilot could land on the taxiway, "the road where taxi cabs pick up passengers, it's right next to the terminal"...
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 07:23
  #86 (permalink)  

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Just a bit surprised that no one has yet mentioned the incident with SU at BCN:
http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/E...005_IN_ENG.pdf
Actually, Ernest Gann mentioned it back in post 65.
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 12:35
  #87 (permalink)  
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Initial NTSB report is now on their website:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...01X01592&key=1
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 12:43
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does anyone have any thoughts as to PAPI positioning as mentioned in an earlier post?
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 18:35
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From another forum for the PPRune armchair aviation experts:
I'm not sure how many of you have flown the ILS 22 circle to 29 at night in gusting winds (winds were 290@30G40 that night). It isn't used that often at EWR.
Did you know that there aren't blue taxiway edge lights at EWR (just reflectors in the ground that you can't see at night from 1/2 mile final)?
Did you know that the PAPI for 29 is in a non-standard location on the right side of the runway?
Did you know that oftentimes one of the two REIL lights is inop (which makes things very confusing)?
Did you know that it is a more than 90 degree turn to final and when you roll out it is only about a 1/2 mile final if done right (not leaving a lot of time to correct errors) and you are staring at very distracting bi-directional heavy auto traffic (lots of lights going both ways) on the NJ Turnpike (which is right at the threshold to 29)?
Did you know that there isn't a charted visual procedure to this runway (although there should be)?
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 19:31
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Maybe, amidst all these lights the non-standard PAPI added up to the confusion; the crew trying to land somewhere to the right of the PAPI, if the crew had the 3rd or 4th leg that day, this could easily happen.....(is a nonstandard PAPI referenced in the charts anywhere?)

Celestar
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 20:23
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Originally Posted by SailorOrion
Maybe, amidst all these lights the non-standard PAPI added up to the confusion; the crew trying to land somewhere to the right of the PAPI, if the crew had the 3rd or 4th leg that day, this could easily happen.....(is a nonstandard PAPI referenced in the charts anywhere?)
Celestar
Yes, here is the chart, but this is non-standard and we are all used to seeing the PAPI on the left side.
You can see from the diagram that the PAPI sits on the left side of the taxiway (Z but not designated on this chart).
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Old 4th Nov 2006, 20:31
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sailor orion

the 10-9 chart, on the back side says that 29 has PAPI on RIGHT.


While most PAPI and abbreviated VASI are on the captain's side, one simply must read and brief all the info...the first suspicious thing I saw was PAPI-R

IN a briefing one might even say: PAPI on RIGHT side...so we better watch it and be sure to land to the left...

and once base to final turn has been made, one may check the glideslope before runway alignment...and then it might be too late...the mind sees what it wants to see.
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 00:19
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Nice to see a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair analysts go to bat on this one. The bottom line is, they both fu*ked up. Period. No excuses. All nicety aside, lets call it for what it is, those guys landed a commercial jet on the taxiway.

Yes, it could happen to anyone of us professional pilots and we all make mistakes. Welcome to our world. All those years on flying these magnificent machines around the world can all come to an end with a simple "Oops..."

Hopefully the crew will get a second chance ('cause I'd like one too if I ever botch one up) but if they get the walking papers instead, oh well, we knew to expect them anyway. Our certificates and two dollars will not buy us a cup of house Starbucks. Yes, we do eat our youngs.

As for my quals, I fly the whale into KEWR on a regular basis.
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 00:36
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Once upon a time airlines would make a pilot who survived an accident serve a time as chief of safety or the like, hoping to glean all they could in accident prevention. He had the voice of experience, and other pilots tended to pay attention.
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 07:21
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Originally Posted by Taikonaut
Nice to see a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks and armchair analysts go to bat on this one. The bottom line is, they both fu*ked up. Period. No excuses. All nicety aside, lets call it for what it is, those guys landed a commercial jet on the taxiway.
Yes they did.

Accident/Incident investigations in the past were conducted to determine the course of action that lead to the problem. It was then the task of the investigations to make sure that this course of action will never happen again.

As soon as investigations try to find out whose fault it was, they're worthless.

It appears that such mishaps (landing on taxiway, take off wrong runway) happen rather frequently, sometimes with suboptimal consequences (SQ006 anyone); instead of blaming people, we ought to find out how to prevent it in the future.

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Old 5th Nov 2006, 07:32
  #96 (permalink)  
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Having looked at the Jepp, with the caveat that I have never been there, those terminal bits must have been a bit close!

Sailor - you are right. We will indeed, always have this sort of event. Do we look now to see, perhaps, flashing/occulting red obstruction lights on the end of each 'parallel' taxiway, bright by day and dimmer at night? I have seen all sorts of 'closed runway' lights, including red x's, flashing reds, alternating reds. Is this the answer? It would not be that expensive.
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 08:00
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I think a simple MALS (or maybe MALSR/MALSF) on the 29 would be plenty.

Sorry to mention a link from the "other side" , but I think it makes the point clear.
Properly lit runway

ok this is not MALS but ALSF-II (if I'm not mistaken), but the idea remains.

I think not that anyone would accidently land on one of the two parallel taxiways without noticing
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 08:03
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Agreed, but given a confusion of turnpike/shopping malls, street lights what-have-you ANYWHERE, would a system of 'barrier' lights not be a good/inexpensive idea?
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 08:20
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I'm not sure, better ask the pros
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Old 5th Nov 2006, 17:34
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article in boston hearld indicates taxiway Z is not illuminated with blue lights, though it does have green centerline lights...somehow this is OK by regs. banking right from base to final if the copilot caught sight of the HIRL and thought, well there is the left side of the runway, can't see the right side of the runway, somewhere down here...kind of thing

while yes, the pilots made a mistake and got lucky that no one was hurt, we must re think markings and lights as menitioned before.

it is amazing things like this don't happen more often.
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