Mid-air collision over Brasil
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I don't consider either the transponder failure, or the communication failure to be very important factors in this accident. Transponders and radios do sometimes fail.
In some situations, an aircraft can be allowed to takeoff without a functioning transponder and/or TCAS system. There are many examples of this.
Temporary loss of communications are EVERYDAY occurrences all over the world. Many things can cause this. It can be as simple as the pilot turning the volume too low. An earpiece falling out of your ear. Stuck microphone blocking transmissions. Out of range stations. It happens every day. In fact it probably happens on every flight.
An ATC system must be designed to be failsafe. This is not the case in Brazil
In some situations, an aircraft can be allowed to takeoff without a functioning transponder and/or TCAS system. There are many examples of this.
Temporary loss of communications are EVERYDAY occurrences all over the world. Many things can cause this. It can be as simple as the pilot turning the volume too low. An earpiece falling out of your ear. Stuck microphone blocking transmissions. Out of range stations. It happens every day. In fact it probably happens on every flight.
An ATC system must be designed to be failsafe. This is not the case in Brazil
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I don't consider either the transponder failure, or the communication failure to be very important factors in this accident. Transponders and radios do sometimes fail.
(Sorry but are you a real pilot?)
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What do you mean? How ATC will help us without our FL?
(Sorry but are you a real pilot?)
Yes, I am a pilot with over 30 years experience in every part of the world except Africa.
On first contact, the primary way for an air traffic controller to establish the altitude of an aircraft is at is to simply ask him on the radio. He then takes a pen and checks off a little strip of paper to verify he is at the correct altitude.
If there is no contact, then the aircraft is at the last cleared altitude that was received and acknowledged by the pilot.
This is universal all over the world.
This is what failed in Brazil.
(Sorry but are you a real pilot?)
Yes, I am a pilot with over 30 years experience in every part of the world except Africa.
On first contact, the primary way for an air traffic controller to establish the altitude of an aircraft is at is to simply ask him on the radio. He then takes a pen and checks off a little strip of paper to verify he is at the correct altitude.
If there is no contact, then the aircraft is at the last cleared altitude that was received and acknowledged by the pilot.
This is universal all over the world.
This is what failed in Brazil.
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An ATC system must be designed to be failsafe. This is not the case in Brazil
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This is universal all over the world.
Sorry, dude, but it is not.
This is universal all over the world.
Sorry, dude, but it is not.
If one can't be certain about the level the flight is at, and there is a loss of comms, you apply a bit of lateral separation.
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Sorry, dude, but it is not.
In every country and Air Traffic Control Systems I have flown in the first call when entering a new sector, new area, crossing any and all boundaries is;
1. Who you are.
2. Where you are. (If not in radar contact.)
3. What level you are. (Or what level you are transiting to and from.)
If there is no response from ATC you stay at the last assigned altitude (level) you were last assigned.
Now, just where is this not the procedure?
Inquiring minds desire to know.
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Our ATC either commited mistakes or was a victim of system failures. This with no doubt.
I am against a criminal procedure against the pilots in this case as I don't see enough evidences of gross negligence in this case, at least to support a criminal conviction.
But some questions remain:
There is a talk about a transponder failure being caused by the use of the footrest.
The first question is: Is that technically proved ? If so, Embraer should immediatelly fix it.
The second question is: Was this the cause for the Transponder to be innoperative in the Legacy aircraft ? Or did the pilot confuse switches ?
Third question: Should the absence of an aural warning after the Transponder was shut off be accepted as a justification for the crew not having turned the device on again ? Shouldn't the crew monitor the a/c instruments ? Shouldn't it be trained to do so ?
Right after the collision, the PNF (I suppose) asked the PF if the transponder was off... The PF promptly confirmed it...
I am against a criminal procedure against the pilots in this case as I don't see enough evidences of gross negligence in this case, at least to support a criminal conviction.
But some questions remain:
There is a talk about a transponder failure being caused by the use of the footrest.
The first question is: Is that technically proved ? If so, Embraer should immediatelly fix it.
The second question is: Was this the cause for the Transponder to be innoperative in the Legacy aircraft ? Or did the pilot confuse switches ?
Third question: Should the absence of an aural warning after the Transponder was shut off be accepted as a justification for the crew not having turned the device on again ? Shouldn't the crew monitor the a/c instruments ? Shouldn't it be trained to do so ?
Right after the collision, the PNF (I suppose) asked the PF if the transponder was off... The PF promptly confirmed it...
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aviadornovato, now those are very good questions and from what I have read and heard the manufacture is changing things so that cannot happen again.
Of course they are not admitting that was the problem in the first place.
Of course they are not admitting that was the problem in the first place.
Quote:
He then takes a pen and checks off a little strip of paper to verify he is at the correct altitude
.
Oh, now I got, You are joking.
That is why you are talking those thinks. I thought that you was talking serious.
leduardo.R is offline Report Post Reply
He then takes a pen and checks off a little strip of paper to verify he is at the correct altitude
.
Oh, now I got, You are joking.
That is why you are talking those thinks. I thought that you was talking serious.
leduardo.R is offline Report Post Reply
Recorded levels, headings, clearances etc are written on those strips. The strips are retained for a set minimum time after finished with and filing: they are legal documents.
This is not a joke.
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Been looking in here periodiacally hoping to learn of something new transpiring... instead it's like jumping aboard a carousel... the engine of which is being fueled by a few people who know as much about aviation procedures as I know about nuclear fission.
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he engine of which is being fueled by a few people who know as much about aviation procedures as I know about nuclear fission.
I for one, fell into the trap.
I initially thought that there were a group of law people in Brazil that believed Pilots in IFR under radar control would change frequencies by looking at what is written on a chart, and change altitude according to their flight plan, and thought it was worth educating them.
Now , if someone wants to explain Procedural control to him ( or her ) , you' re welcome, but I am out.
I' d say : Let's wait for the final CENIPA report ( due any week now) to restart an interesting debate here .
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Originally Posted by aviadornovato
I wonder if the same was said about Europe (mainly Germany/Switzerland) after the Ueberlingen collision... A single controller on duty, no phone lines, etc, etc...
I' d say : Let's wait for the final CENIPA report ( due any week now)
Lot's of questions remain unanswered that need to be in the report. ATC is only one part of the report.
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Very well said, I also think now that perhaps the " few" people could be one with many aliases, whether it is in Brasilia, Timbuktu or now Lisbon.
I for one, fell into the trap.
I for one, fell into the trap.
And please answer my questions about the transponder without bypassing the subject.
Regards.
