Crew incapacitation (Ryanair)
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in the log book?
should be PIC time!
if he thought it best to go to STN then that's good enough for me!
"nearest SUITABLE airport"
i.e. known restaurants-language (do you speak Derry?)-girlfriend (for post flight relief)-parked car perhaps-etc...
vital factors--hah.
hope all is well.
if he thought it best to go to STN then that's good enough for me!
"nearest SUITABLE airport"
i.e. known restaurants-language (do you speak Derry?)-girlfriend (for post flight relief)-parked car perhaps-etc...
vital factors--hah.
hope all is well.
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Well done that man.
One thing thats been mentioned earlier in this thread, but probably missed by everyone who thinks you should park it on the nearest bit of tarmac, is that you can't taxi a 737 from the right hand seat. So unless you go to a decent airport, either a company base or with some other quick provision of ground handling, then you will be parked on the runway for some time - not ideal to evacuate an ill person.
One thing thats been mentioned earlier in this thread, but probably missed by everyone who thinks you should park it on the nearest bit of tarmac, is that you can't taxi a 737 from the right hand seat. So unless you go to a decent airport, either a company base or with some other quick provision of ground handling, then you will be parked on the runway for some time - not ideal to evacuate an ill person.
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Just a question - since I don't know the U/C systems that well - can the 737 nosewheel steering tiller be disengaged so the ship can be steered (albeit imprecisely) with brakes & differential thrust? At least you could clear the runway that way.
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It's possible to manouver the 737 on the ground from the RHS. Not with the greatest deal of precision, but it is possible.
Again, as an FO (especially if I were to land at STN) I would not think twice about vacating the RWY from the RHS with the rudder pedals and if necessary differential braking, then come to a stop on the high speed exit.
It may very well be possible to taxi further with differential braking etc but it wouldnt really be necessary....a suitable runway exit should be enough....I don't really like sitting on runways unless I'm moving!
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ryanair incapacitation
hello aerostudent,
as you mentioned, you can steer with the rudderpedals +/-7°nosewheelsteering,albeit not very precise. so the last thing you would like to do after a successfull singlepilot emergency landing, is to steer the ship into the grass,trying to aim for the nearest exit in order to clear the rwy.
remember that, after declaring an emergency(mayday call) & decided to land at stansted, you & you alone own the place for the duration of the emergency & you are allowed to deviate from any rule or regulation, if it's in the interest of safety.
so, i think the lad did a great job by landing back at stn, stop the aircraft on the rwy, parking brakes on, start apu+ on busses, shut down the engines, disarm slides, door open & stair extended & have the medics on board to attend the ill captain. i think this was more or less what happened.
as you mentioned, you can steer with the rudderpedals +/-7°nosewheelsteering,albeit not very precise. so the last thing you would like to do after a successfull singlepilot emergency landing, is to steer the ship into the grass,trying to aim for the nearest exit in order to clear the rwy.
remember that, after declaring an emergency(mayday call) & decided to land at stansted, you & you alone own the place for the duration of the emergency & you are allowed to deviate from any rule or regulation, if it's in the interest of safety.
so, i think the lad did a great job by landing back at stn, stop the aircraft on the rwy, parking brakes on, start apu+ on busses, shut down the engines, disarm slides, door open & stair extended & have the medics on board to attend the ill captain. i think this was more or less what happened.
Last edited by blackmail; 26th Sep 2006 at 14:31.
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Bacardi Walla , You can read my posting history to see where I stand in relation to FR, I'm not one of the pro muppets or a supporter. But what you wrote is just so idiotic, it is quite clear to anyone who knows, that you are spoofer. Are you seriously trying to suggest that the company would want an emergency handled to suit their commercial schedule? Honestly, I don't know why people who have absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about feel the need to butt in with only a half witted grudge against Ryanair. Cop on, the lot of you!
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I was passing over the top of this situation while heading to the ocean and as a crew we listened in to the unfolding events until out of range.
I can only imagine the stress levels to a relatively new pilot being put in an incapacitation situation, but from what I heard this chap did an exemplary job. He remained calm throughout the discourse I heard. Initially he did mention potentially diverting to Manchester (which maybe gives more of a clue to his location at the time) but as any of us with experience know, 'nearest suitable' is defined through a combination of factors, not just the geographically closest. Familiarity, and something as simple as having the airfield plates already at your side and having just left knowing the weather and runway in use make a complicated diversion much less likely to end in incident by returning.
From what we heard he seemed well ahead of the game, even informing ATC that he would need help at STN when he arrived due to lack of tiller but could probably manage the RET. A sign a great capacity given the circumstances. (For those using the NUTA he was thinking well ahead!)
Irrespective of weather in Derry given the circumstances I feel he performed superbly. He seemed very aware of all the factors affecting him and made a reasoned decision untimately with a completely successful outcome.
I agree all those non-pilots are entitled to their opinion, but on this day in this circumstance a professional pilot made a decision which everyone benefitted from. There is nothing to question, only commend. I hope this chap continues his career with similary good decision making skills and execution. Ryanair are fortunate to have him in their employ and I hope acknowledge him accordingly.
I can only imagine the stress levels to a relatively new pilot being put in an incapacitation situation, but from what I heard this chap did an exemplary job. He remained calm throughout the discourse I heard. Initially he did mention potentially diverting to Manchester (which maybe gives more of a clue to his location at the time) but as any of us with experience know, 'nearest suitable' is defined through a combination of factors, not just the geographically closest. Familiarity, and something as simple as having the airfield plates already at your side and having just left knowing the weather and runway in use make a complicated diversion much less likely to end in incident by returning.
From what we heard he seemed well ahead of the game, even informing ATC that he would need help at STN when he arrived due to lack of tiller but could probably manage the RET. A sign a great capacity given the circumstances. (For those using the NUTA he was thinking well ahead!)
Irrespective of weather in Derry given the circumstances I feel he performed superbly. He seemed very aware of all the factors affecting him and made a reasoned decision untimately with a completely successful outcome.
I agree all those non-pilots are entitled to their opinion, but on this day in this circumstance a professional pilot made a decision which everyone benefitted from. There is nothing to question, only commend. I hope this chap continues his career with similary good decision making skills and execution. Ryanair are fortunate to have him in their employ and I hope acknowledge him accordingly.
Last edited by JazzyKex; 26th Sep 2006 at 17:19. Reason: For the first of probably many spelling errors!
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hello aerostudent,
as you mentioned, you can steer with the rudderpedals +/-7°nosewheelsteering,albeit not very precise. so the last thing you would like to do after a successfull singlepilot emergency landing, is to steer the ship into the grass,trying to aim for the nearest exit in order to clear the rwy.
remember that, after declaring an emergency(mayday call) & decided to land at stansted, you & you alone own the place for the duration of the emergency & you are allowed to deviate from any rule or regulation, if it's in the interest of safety..
as you mentioned, you can steer with the rudderpedals +/-7°nosewheelsteering,albeit not very precise. so the last thing you would like to do after a successfull singlepilot emergency landing, is to steer the ship into the grass,trying to aim for the nearest exit in order to clear the rwy.
remember that, after declaring an emergency(mayday call) & decided to land at stansted, you & you alone own the place for the duration of the emergency & you are allowed to deviate from any rule or regulation, if it's in the interest of safety..
Horses for courses.
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Yeah I'm with Aero Student in that situation I'd plan to use the pedals to make the most suitable RET at a place like STN and vacate the runway. I've often thought of what I'd do faced with the situation this chap found himself in and I've always concluded that the most important thing is to give yourself time to prepare for a single pilot arrival, and not feel compelled to rush the aircraft onto the groung somewhere. Not an easy thing to do when faced with the incapacitation of your captain. Seems like he did exactly that and kudos to him, job well done. I bet he won't have to buy any beer for a week or two!
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I thought I had asked this question before, but maybe my computer link dropped, or a moderator removed it ? it is rather simple I will agree, but humour me....
On the taxi issue, assuming that the PIC was not still strapped to his seat, and assuming the co-pilot completed the landing to a full stop from the right hand seat in which he is trained and feels comfortable...
Is there a major issue with applying the park brake, moving seats to the left to access the tiller and completing the taxi from that side.
If the answer is a technical no, I would appreciate if someone would let me know why, and if it is an SOP that you can't swap seats with the engines running and no one covering the controls, thats a different thing altogether, but in its own way would also be quite interesting
On the taxi issue, assuming that the PIC was not still strapped to his seat, and assuming the co-pilot completed the landing to a full stop from the right hand seat in which he is trained and feels comfortable...
Is there a major issue with applying the park brake, moving seats to the left to access the tiller and completing the taxi from that side.
If the answer is a technical no, I would appreciate if someone would let me know why, and if it is an SOP that you can't swap seats with the engines running and no one covering the controls, thats a different thing altogether, but in its own way would also be quite interesting
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Its like this rmac, As a F/O, and allegeldly the F/O in this case was a new/low experience first officer, you have just done an extremely good job in flying an airliner full of Passengers back to your home base instead of an airfield which is a mandatory Captains only landing due to factors such as length,lack of radar services, airspace and a train that runs close to the runway which can cause a go around on short finals. You have wisely choosen your home base, so you can probably set up the approach from memory and just do a quick double check from memory off the plate, its also given you some time to get focussed after the shock of the Captain becoming useless, and time to get your adrenaline in check. You've wisely choosen a nice big base with lots of medical facilites. Also facilites to take care of the Passengers, although the Captain is sick, you don't want to risk all of their lives to save just one after all.
You didn't have the luxury of hours and hours to mull over nitty bitty details like our "Experts" on PPRuNe, to painstankingly compare the merits of this one over that one ad naseum. Your the man in the hot seat and people are looking at you to keep the show on the road, by yourself.
As you come in to STN because you've declared your PAN/Mayday (As appropriate) and because of that as the ATC guys on here keep reminding us, you are their No.1 priority. Everything revolves around you, everyone else can wait. You get direct routings, vectors to 10 miles finals. You do a great job, doing it all by yourself. You land on the runway. Everyone safe. Job done.
Why oh why would you then f%^& it all up by then taking the biggest risk of the day and attempt taxiing the aircraft? Using an RET or not, an aircraft which has no tiller on your side in FR, and only 7 deg steering angle using the Rudder Pedals, a task you have NEVER prior performed in the aircraft before. The most likely outcome is that your going to undo all that good effort and taxi the Aircraft onto the grass, and give some of the uninformed muppets on here and tabloids ammo for months. A "Ryanair skids off runway in STN" thread would appear within minutes. The post saying FR taxi too fast and thats why it happend would appear moments later.
People here talking about not wanting to block the runway!? You have an emergency, maybe the only one you will ever experience in your entire career. I wouldn't care if it was blocked for the next six months. Let ATC worry about that for you.
You park it there until a Capt is called, or a tow truck comes and collects you. That is also as far as I can tell, the company policy as advocated by the Line Trainers that I have encountered at least, although I can't find it written in the Manuals.
As for swapping seats, again, as an F/O you have never done this outside the sim, which I am sure is not the same thing. Today is not the day to start trying new things.
You didn't have the luxury of hours and hours to mull over nitty bitty details like our "Experts" on PPRuNe, to painstankingly compare the merits of this one over that one ad naseum. Your the man in the hot seat and people are looking at you to keep the show on the road, by yourself.
As you come in to STN because you've declared your PAN/Mayday (As appropriate) and because of that as the ATC guys on here keep reminding us, you are their No.1 priority. Everything revolves around you, everyone else can wait. You get direct routings, vectors to 10 miles finals. You do a great job, doing it all by yourself. You land on the runway. Everyone safe. Job done.
Why oh why would you then f%^& it all up by then taking the biggest risk of the day and attempt taxiing the aircraft? Using an RET or not, an aircraft which has no tiller on your side in FR, and only 7 deg steering angle using the Rudder Pedals, a task you have NEVER prior performed in the aircraft before. The most likely outcome is that your going to undo all that good effort and taxi the Aircraft onto the grass, and give some of the uninformed muppets on here and tabloids ammo for months. A "Ryanair skids off runway in STN" thread would appear within minutes. The post saying FR taxi too fast and thats why it happend would appear moments later.
People here talking about not wanting to block the runway!? You have an emergency, maybe the only one you will ever experience in your entire career. I wouldn't care if it was blocked for the next six months. Let ATC worry about that for you.
You park it there until a Capt is called, or a tow truck comes and collects you. That is also as far as I can tell, the company policy as advocated by the Line Trainers that I have encountered at least, although I can't find it written in the Manuals.
As for swapping seats, again, as an F/O you have never done this outside the sim, which I am sure is not the same thing. Today is not the day to start trying new things.
Last edited by Carmoisine; 26th Sep 2006 at 21:20.
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Why oh why would you then f%^& it all up by then taking the biggest risk of the day and attempt taxiing the aircraft? Using an RET or not, an aircraft which has no tiller on your side in FR, and only 7 deg steering angle using the Rudder Pedals, a task you have NEVER prior performed in the aircraft before. The most likely outcome is that your going to undo all that good effort and taxi the Aircraft onto the grass
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BMRR, I believe you to be very wrong. I believe it to be against the company proceedures. Ask your line trainers at STN.
Again I repeat, you've never done it before, you are not trained to do it, you are not approved to do it. Blocking the runway is not your concern, you will be towed clear in 35 mins. Aircraft will have to divert. No risk to life. What a prat one would look taxiing it onto the grass at 50kts after saving the day.
Again I repeat, you've never done it before, you are not trained to do it, you are not approved to do it. Blocking the runway is not your concern, you will be towed clear in 35 mins. Aircraft will have to divert. No risk to life. What a prat one would look taxiing it onto the grass at 50kts after saving the day.
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Carmoisine, the best and most complete post on this subject. Pity we had to wait until page 3.
My company also does not allow FOs to taxi the aircraft even though many have a tiller on the right side (daft, we think, but rules is rules). The training is to handle the emergency, stop on the runway, then it becomes SEP (someone else's problem).
If you want to get your sick crew member dealt with asap, stop the aircraft, shut down the engines, then disarm the doors where the steps and medics should already be waiting. Job done.
Sure it's inconvenient to block an international airport's runway for half an hour, but we all carry enough diversion fuel in our two crew aircraft, don't we? Besides, diverting is not as inconvenient as having to fly single handed with a mate who is not looking too healthy.
My company also does not allow FOs to taxi the aircraft even though many have a tiller on the right side (daft, we think, but rules is rules). The training is to handle the emergency, stop on the runway, then it becomes SEP (someone else's problem).
If you want to get your sick crew member dealt with asap, stop the aircraft, shut down the engines, then disarm the doors where the steps and medics should already be waiting. Job done.
Sure it's inconvenient to block an international airport's runway for half an hour, but we all carry enough diversion fuel in our two crew aircraft, don't we? Besides, diverting is not as inconvenient as having to fly single handed with a mate who is not looking too healthy.
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ryr incapacitation
hello carmoisine & earnest
i am totally with you(see my previous post) & what can we do more to convince these FO's to stop ON the rwy & Not to taxi on the ret?
i am totally with you(see my previous post) & what can we do more to convince these FO's to stop ON the rwy & Not to taxi on the ret?
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Blackmail, The problem is that they are probably not Ryanair Pilots, or even pilots commenting on something they now nothing about. Some people actually blur the lines of reality and think that their Flight sim virtual airline is a real thing. Any line trainer I have ever met says you stop on the runway.
JazzyKex - an excellent post. I share your congratulations to the F/O who did such a good job under testing circumstances.
Given the emergency, the skies would have parted quicker than Moses v. the Red Sea and direct to 10 mile final at STN would be all ready for him. Better that than expect a low-time FO to cope with flying singlehanded into an unfamiliar airport such as Manchester.
Stopping on the RW and getting immediate medical assistance to the captain would have been top priority. Steps out, medics on, captain out and into ambulance, new captain in, steps in, taxy clear. Allow 5-10 min in all?
I hope Mo'L has sent a letter of congratulations to the chap involved at the very least!
Given the emergency, the skies would have parted quicker than Moses v. the Red Sea and direct to 10 mile final at STN would be all ready for him. Better that than expect a low-time FO to cope with flying singlehanded into an unfamiliar airport such as Manchester.
Stopping on the RW and getting immediate medical assistance to the captain would have been top priority. Steps out, medics on, captain out and into ambulance, new captain in, steps in, taxy clear. Allow 5-10 min in all?
I hope Mo'L has sent a letter of congratulations to the chap involved at the very least!