Crew incapacitation (Ryanair)

[Nineiron]

Having read of the disturbing prospects of SAA adopting MPL training (thread down page), this morning's news on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5377238.stm concerning a Ryanair flight with a totally incapacitated captain brings back reality.
Well done the crew, I hope the drills worked, and that the skipper is OK

[Engine overtemp]

"We were approximately 15 minutes from Derry and the co-pilot came on and said the captain had collapsed and due to procedures we were returning to Stansted airport,"

I really hope that this is journo rubbish and that they didn't turn back to Stansted when that close to Derry!

[gofer]

BBC News thread

passengers had been told that the captain had been taken off to hospital and that the captain's wife and family were also ill

Perhaps just a case of food poisoning, or are salaries too low at Ryan for staff to be able to afford decent fresh food.
Apologies if you think this cynical or in bad taste.

[Rainboe]

It is a bit, isn't it? An unfortunate case of a bug going around a family, as anyone who has had kids will know happens. No 'points' to be made out of this one- one hopes the poor gentleman recovers rapidly. To have a dedicated professional affected in such a way and collapsing in the course of his duties will be a traumatic blow to his self-esteem.

[rmac]

Not a medic, so I stand to be corrected, but short of heart attacks, strokes etc, are there many other illnesses where you can strap yourself in to the aircraft full of the joys of spring (with no signs of illness) and then be unconcious 45 mins later ?

I've got four kids, and so catch things regularly from them, and pretty much can feel it coming on.

Could it possibly be pressure at work that would encourage a captain to overlook or underestimate symptoms of illness.

[Number Cruncher]

Say your a low hours FO and this happens. You get a message from the CC that an experienced Captain is sat in the back as pax and has offered to come in and give you a hand, do you accept? Are we allowed?

Yes we are trained for this sort of thing but would it make matters easier?

[barit1]

In an outstanding case of CRM, it was an off-duty deadheading training captain that saved the day in the Sioux City UAL accident. He was the only one "flying" the aircraft (and in fact learn to fly it from scratch), using the only available control: #1 & #3 throttles.

Any airline that has not studied and accounted for this (admittedly very remote) case is missing the CRM boat.

[runawayedge]

"I really hope that this is journo rubbish and that they didn't turn back to Stansted when that close to Derry!"

Considering the runway length at Derry are there any restrictions on FO landings, is it capt. only? Another consideration is the additional workload on the FO, landing back at familiar surroundings, not having to perform a 'short field landing' and of course for operational reasons, replacement crew etc. Why state 'journo rubbish', seems sensible to me, though I suppose Dub would have been closer.

[Daysleeper]

Not a medic, so I stand to be corrected, but short of heart attacks, strokes etc, are there many other illnesses where you can strap yourself in to the aircraft full of the joys of spring (with no signs of illness) and then be unconcious 45 mins later ?

In a word: Yes.

In several words: gastro-intestinal problems such as food poisoning and others can be very rapid in their onset and can have an incubation period ranging from within and hour of eating the food to a couple of days. We also live in a society where we eat more and more food prepared by someone else, be it a take away, a "ready meal" or similar and like most vital services ,our councils Environmental Health officers do a largly unrecognised and under-resourced job of keeping the worst stuff out of the food chain.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

There is no one normally more critical of Ryanair than I am, but in this case a Ryanair pilot has acted flawlessly in a very difficult situation.

Fifteen minutes from Derry means thirty minutes from Stansted, so it is hardly a transatlantic flight. In the case of an incapacitation the surviving pilot has 3 priorities - safety, safety and safety! If the FO was relatively inexperienced he would understandably wish to land at the most familiar airport, with the longest runway and the least hassle. There is no doubt that this would be a hugely stressful experience for him and, as all pilots know, that would significantly increase the chance of a serious error being made. His job is to get the aircraft safely on the ground and he has done just that. Instead of us debating a young FO's decision to land at a tricky airport, running of the end off the runway and passengers being killed or injured, we are debating a non-event. That is how we want it. I think he is to be commended for his actions and he did exactly the right thing.

[SLFguy]

Originally Posted by Engine overtemp

I really hope that this is journo rubbish and that they didn't turn back to Stansted when that close to Derry!

Apologies if this is a daft question......

If the situation occurs "15 minutes" out, surely the FO is going to want more than that amount of time to 'get his sh*t together' before landing anyway...so may as well go to the most suitable field for his purpose?

[Engine overtemp]

He was very, very pale and his eyes were rolling in his head, absolutely motionless. The attendants ran up to him," he told BBC Radio Ulster.

I think I would prefer to get seen by a doctor as quickly as possible. The fact that the F/O did a good job of getting the aircraft down is not in dispute, what I question is the company's procedure of returning to Stansted (375NM from Derry in a straight line - and very unlikely to be able to be done in 30mins NSF) rather than land at Derry or divert to Belfast or even Dublin or Manchester.

[A330AV8R]

Bottom line . . . they made it down safely !

for that I say quedos to the F/O

[Roadtrip]

As a fully qualified pilot, I certainly hope the FO could safely land the aircraft, even without an extra hand to move the flaps and put the gear down. I'm surprised that would even be questioned.

[Eff Oh]

Just a thought, but do they have pushback tugs at Derry?? The F/O may well have wanted to land and shutdown on the runway and be towed in. He may not have been able to taxi from his side, so going to STN where he has more facilities, and prob more familiar to him, was a sound call.
Well done.

[cwatters]

Originally Posted by rmac

Not a medic, so I stand to be corrected, but short of heart attacks, strokes etc, are there many other illnesses where you can strap yourself in to the aircraft full of the joys of spring (with no signs of illness) and then be unconcious 45 mins later ?

Don't underestimate food poisioning...

Over a period of about 20 mins I developed a severe pounding headache, large blind spots in my vision and vomiting. In effect I was totally incapacitated and quite scared (particularly by the partial blindness). It took about a day before I was fully back to normal.

A few days later it happened again and I went to the doctor. He diagnosed a bug of some sort....but my wife had been fine and we had been eating the same food etc.

Later I heard that a brand of fizzy drink had been withdrawn after a load of school children had been taken ill. Penny dropped... I (but not my wife) had been drinking from a family size bottle in our fridge.

[Rainboe]

Let's not get hung up on '15 minutes from Derry'. The actual quote from a passenger was 'approximately 15 minutes from Derry'. In a very alarming occurence, this copilot had the presence of mind to show initiative and recover the situation well. I think we should stop second guessing his decision on the sparsest of information. Well done that man.

[X-Centric]

Congratulations to the First Officer on a job well done. Derry = short field; possibly poorer weather than Stansted; unfamilair, limited facilities; no push back; no replacement Captain waiting on standby; narrow taxyways with no high speed turn off. (possible runway closure due to no tiller on the FO's side). Stansted = the exact opposite with other alternatives for getting the pax back over to NI.

Well done

[AERO_STUDENT]

As a FO on the 737 in the UK, can I offer my 2p worth that if I were in a similar situation, I'd have absolutely no qualms about returning over a longer distance to a much better equipped much more familiar airfield. Within reason of course, and only when there's a few minutes difference as in this case.

If (and I don't know this) the RYR crew were STN based, I'd be much more tempted to go do the approach at a place I know inside out, rather than somewhere requiring much much more 'thinking' about etc.

Obviously if the guy's breathing his last then the most expeditious option is probably the better...

Incidentally too, in our airline SOP is to autoland after an incap....Autolands are sometihng we're not allowed to do from the RHS in day to day ops....so do you do something very new and non-standard during this high capacity time, or stick with a manual landing as per every day?? With good weather I'm afraid I'd fly the landing and argue against that particular SOP later.....but maybe that's for another thread.

[essexboy]

I understand that mid way through all of this the ATCO who was talking to the the FO went into labour.