Comair CRJ crash in Kentucky
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While there are no doubt lessons to be learned here in perhaps airport signage charts and runway confirmation in company procedures, it is pretty difficult to justify taking off on a runway with no lights on only to discover that there were no lights on because that runway is closed.
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Numbers
you do not cross the numbers 26 when you enter runway 26 because most pilots would follow the lead off line only. you get close to the numbers when you follow straight across to the closed A7 to be taxiway.
In the dark, with the red flashing lights ahead of you and the none too bright CRJ lights, you would be pushed to notice them. As you look towards the "numbers" then you also get light in your eyes from airport car parks, roads etc.
There are no lead on lines for Runway 22 either, in case you were wondering.
There were several elements which could have stopped the crash after the throttles were pushed forward for the last time. All of these must be investigated by NTSB. However, the throttles were pushed when the crew had convinced themselves (probably with internal confirmation bias) that they were on the correct runway. The red signs about runway numbers are slightly confusing at the intersection, and with the CRJ light patterns you would be too focused on centerline to have that external a view of the periferal signs.
You do get the runway lights for 22, but again even wider periferal vision. Remember that you will see the reduced intensity side filters, not the straight ahead high intensity light when you cross runway 22.
The aircraft crossed two primary runway side stripes. Did the crew know about runway markings? The crew also crossed an aiming point white block. Same comment.
The aircraft passed by a 2000 and 1000 foot to go marker boards. Again, very periferal stuff and not lit by the aircraft lights to any extent.
The crew now have absolutely no chance. The end of the runway comes up, with the profile of the runway and a big white spot is the 8 on centerline. Run at that at 130+ knots and you would not get the nose gear off.
Drag of the gear on the grass?
How much damage did the security fence do?
If I was convinced that I was on the right runway at the point of throttle push, might I have detected it. Yes. But that is because I spend all day looking at runways and accidents. Would I expect an "average" regional jet pilot to detect the difference. Actually, no. Especially as the charts were non-compliant with international standards and give no information about runway markings at all.
As for the terminology, well, the best that we do at the moment is associated with "events in the accident sequence". We let the lawyers work out which were the more important in terms of liability. In terms of responsibility, well that is laid down in the individual Safety Management System of each airport operator and integrated with the ATC service provide and aircraft operator. (well it should be...)
In the dark, with the red flashing lights ahead of you and the none too bright CRJ lights, you would be pushed to notice them. As you look towards the "numbers" then you also get light in your eyes from airport car parks, roads etc.
There are no lead on lines for Runway 22 either, in case you were wondering.
There were several elements which could have stopped the crash after the throttles were pushed forward for the last time. All of these must be investigated by NTSB. However, the throttles were pushed when the crew had convinced themselves (probably with internal confirmation bias) that they were on the correct runway. The red signs about runway numbers are slightly confusing at the intersection, and with the CRJ light patterns you would be too focused on centerline to have that external a view of the periferal signs.
You do get the runway lights for 22, but again even wider periferal vision. Remember that you will see the reduced intensity side filters, not the straight ahead high intensity light when you cross runway 22.
The aircraft crossed two primary runway side stripes. Did the crew know about runway markings? The crew also crossed an aiming point white block. Same comment.
The aircraft passed by a 2000 and 1000 foot to go marker boards. Again, very periferal stuff and not lit by the aircraft lights to any extent.
The crew now have absolutely no chance. The end of the runway comes up, with the profile of the runway and a big white spot is the 8 on centerline. Run at that at 130+ knots and you would not get the nose gear off.
Drag of the gear on the grass?
How much damage did the security fence do?
If I was convinced that I was on the right runway at the point of throttle push, might I have detected it. Yes. But that is because I spend all day looking at runways and accidents. Would I expect an "average" regional jet pilot to detect the difference. Actually, no. Especially as the charts were non-compliant with international standards and give no information about runway markings at all.
As for the terminology, well, the best that we do at the moment is associated with "events in the accident sequence". We let the lawyers work out which were the more important in terms of liability. In terms of responsibility, well that is laid down in the individual Safety Management System of each airport operator and integrated with the ATC service provide and aircraft operator. (well it should be...)
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Or [is it possible] that the crash was actually inevitable before the throttles were advanced for the last time ?
You've awakened a memory from very long ago.....
"The Pilot Who Died Before Take-off".
It's a story about a Super Sabre (F-100 ... that should date it !).
In theory, he starts his engine with enough credit on his "runway remaining" balance. In reality he's already dead.
The story then goes through everything that finally puts him into debt.... air temperature reducing thrust, higher than expected fuel weight, change of wind, etc.
The story ends with a fireball at the end of the runway.
It's likely over 40 years since I read it, and I honestly don't know if it was Ernest Gann, or an obscure article in an obscure flight safety magazine. Maybe somebody remembers the story?
I've never forgotten that one. It was the classic case of what we are now calling here "the holes in the cheese lining up".
When that happens the only sane answer is: "how do we stop it from happening again?".
Putting "blame" is singularly pointless. Maybe a human made a mistake. If so, another human will make the same mistake sooner or later, unless we do the necessary to help him/her in every way not to make that same mistaek again.
Personally, I still remember the Eastern 401 crash in the Everglades in 1972. Luckily we didn't have to wait for the final report to find out that one of the contributing factors could have been the AP alt hold being disengaged by pressure on the controls, without this being clearly indicated to the crew.
We looked, and yes, on Concorde we had the same situation. The necessary modifications weren't long in coming.
In 2000, a Concorde crashed. Everything was done to fill every single hole in the cheese that lined up that day, and she was brought back to service.
One can only hope that this time, too, everything will be done to fill every single hole in the cheese, rather than just blame X or Y. Having read this thread..... pigs will fly first......
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Yes yes lots of mitigating circumstances but . . .
. . . I say again; when you professional pilots line up to depart surely to God you look down the runway, you look at your heading bug which I presume you have set on the correct runway heading and your check you are taking off on the correct runway. Because if you dont and you run off the end of a runway that is way too short for your airplane's performance YOU are going to be held responsible. Who else is in charge if not YOU the Captain?
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From Yahoo! news:
Full story http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061014/...s/comair_crash
By BRETT BARROUQUERE, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 13, 8:39 PM ET
LEXINGTON, Ky. - Comair sued the federal government and the Lexington airport Friday over the deadly crash of a commuter plane that mistakenly took off from a too-short runway. Forty-nine people were killed in the accident Aug. 27. n a statement, the airline said it intends to reach fair settlements with the victims' families but is suing to ensure other parties that bear responsibility pay their share.
LEXINGTON, Ky. - Comair sued the federal government and the Lexington airport Friday over the deadly crash of a commuter plane that mistakenly took off from a too-short runway. Forty-nine people were killed in the accident Aug. 27. n a statement, the airline said it intends to reach fair settlements with the victims' families but is suing to ensure other parties that bear responsibility pay their share.
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To be expected, in our 'lets blame everyone' environment of today.
Generally speaking, most folks are unable to come to terms that they, and no one else, screwed up, big time.
Comair is certainly no exception.
Generally speaking, most folks are unable to come to terms that they, and no one else, screwed up, big time.
Comair is certainly no exception.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
To be fair to Comair, this will be an instruction from the Corporate Lawyers to mitigate the cost to them when the settlements do get paid. It's not so much a question of blaming everybody, so much as not getting hit with the whole cost. Not excusing it, but that's what the "suits" get paid to do for the airline business.
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Unless the FAA and/or LEX are guilty of dereliction. Yes the crew screwed up, but just maybe they had "help" doing so.
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I have flown with so many people that think airport signage is confusing, my self included. I think it is not very intuitive and the system needs to change. It might be cheap, and maybe even logical when you sit there and look at it from an engineer's point of view...but it just doesn't work very well otherwise.
I'm not blaming this accident on airport/taxiway signage; but this accident does bring it into question. I believe this was crew error; no matter what the circumstances and surrounding factors.
What should be done about signage? Of all places in the world, I was flying in BOM recently and they have a very good system. The taxiway signage is painted on the actual taxiways, right next to the centerline light, where your eyes are focused most of the time. I'm sure there are many airports arround the world that do this, but this is the last one in which I've noticed it. What a difference it makes. This should be the standard at every airport. I'm sure the paint wears out often, but the extra maintenance is worth the effort.
I'm not blaming this accident on airport/taxiway signage; but this accident does bring it into question. I believe this was crew error; no matter what the circumstances and surrounding factors.
What should be done about signage? Of all places in the world, I was flying in BOM recently and they have a very good system. The taxiway signage is painted on the actual taxiways, right next to the centerline light, where your eyes are focused most of the time. I'm sure there are many airports arround the world that do this, but this is the last one in which I've noticed it. What a difference it makes. This should be the standard at every airport. I'm sure the paint wears out often, but the extra maintenance is worth the effort.
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I am glad to hear about the first lawsuits.
Once the lawyers get involved, change will happen. ALPA for the longest time has said words to the effect of: an $8.00 bucket of paint would fix many airports.
put blue paint down to lead to one runway, green to another, purple to still another.
ATC says, follow the blue line to RW 22, report holding short.
Rocket science? Hardly...I've seen it in hospitals...follow the red line to X ray!
Pilots are tested for color blindness.
There have been crashes in the past, where the FAA has had to shoulder the lion's share of the blame.
Could the crew have done better? YES
Could the system have done better? YES
Could the passengers have done better by staying home that day? Sadly, yes.
I like that Royal Bank of Scotland ad on TV...too much talk...not enough action.
Once the lawyers get involved, change will happen. ALPA for the longest time has said words to the effect of: an $8.00 bucket of paint would fix many airports.
put blue paint down to lead to one runway, green to another, purple to still another.
ATC says, follow the blue line to RW 22, report holding short.
Rocket science? Hardly...I've seen it in hospitals...follow the red line to X ray!
Pilots are tested for color blindness.
There have been crashes in the past, where the FAA has had to shoulder the lion's share of the blame.
Could the crew have done better? YES
Could the system have done better? YES
Could the passengers have done better by staying home that day? Sadly, yes.
I like that Royal Bank of Scotland ad on TV...too much talk...not enough action.
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One could go on ad infinitum
The bottom line is this (sorry to repeat myself - sign of old age)
When you line up on your departure runway SURELY you align the HEADING BUG to the nose of the aircraft? and having done so SURELY you check the actual magnetic heading the aircraft is on? You do don't you? Well if you DON'T then I suggest you start doing so in future!
Old Pilot
But still alive!
When you line up on your departure runway SURELY you align the HEADING BUG to the nose of the aircraft? and having done so SURELY you check the actual magnetic heading the aircraft is on? You do don't you? Well if you DON'T then I suggest you start doing so in future!
Old Pilot
But still alive!
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Taxiway Signage
"The taxiway signage is painted on the actual taxiways, right next to the centerline light, where your eyes are focused most of the time. "
Fine at airports where it never snows.
Fine at airports where it never snows.
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When it snows
. . .what do you suggest - paint that shows through snow?
For goodness sake people when did old fashioned AIRMANSHIP get taken out of the syllabus? Line up; centre your heading bug; check the magnetic heading and if it is NOT what you expected ie the Runway Heading then FOR GOODNESS SAKE ASK WHY? BEFORE you push those power levers forwards!
For goodness sake people when did old fashioned AIRMANSHIP get taken out of the syllabus? Line up; centre your heading bug; check the magnetic heading and if it is NOT what you expected ie the Runway Heading then FOR GOODNESS SAKE ASK WHY?
BEFORE you push those power levers forwards!
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fine at airports where snow is cleared frequently and everyone slows down and makes sure of things when conditions are rotten
indeed, the only runway one might taxi to at a snow covered airport is one that has been plowed, etc.
indeed, the only runway one might taxi to at a snow covered airport is one that has been plowed, etc.
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hi sailor
haven't heard anything recently...I do expect the transcript of the CVR to be available before the end of the year.
I do PREDICT that the copilot will be the person who questions the lack of runway lights...but it is only SPECULATION.
have you heard anything?
jon
haven't heard anything recently...I do expect the transcript of the CVR to be available before the end of the year.
I do PREDICT that the copilot will be the person who questions the lack of runway lights...but it is only SPECULATION.
have you heard anything?
jon
Not available in stores.
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The latest news seems to be that the NTSB announced (rather quietly, it would appear) it will not hold public hearings on the crash. Supposedly they will release major documents (including the CVR transcript) early next year and could rule on probable cause by spring.
Source: Louisville Courier-Journal
I can understand that the NTSB wouldn't conduct public hearings for every investigation, but doesn't it seem a bit odd to omit such a step in a high-profile event such as this?
Source: Louisville Courier-Journal
I can understand that the NTSB wouldn't conduct public hearings for every investigation, but doesn't it seem a bit odd to omit such a step in a high-profile event such as this?
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it concerns me greatly that the NTSB isn't making an attempt on a public hearing on this crash.
I went to the NTSB public hearing on the rudder hardover crash near KPIT back in '94.
Interesting, depressing, but I did look one of the NTSB members in the eye and told him not to blame the pilots on this one.
I went to the NTSB public hearing on the rudder hardover crash near KPIT back in '94.
Interesting, depressing, but I did look one of the NTSB members in the eye and told him not to blame the pilots on this one.
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This post was a great read.
I was recently in differences training and we got to talking about this accident. The instructor mentioned that the CVR/FDR info would be released shortly and from what he had been told the CVR wasn't pretty. Plenty of non-standard, makes you embarassed to be a pilot kinda stuff.
I certainly hope that isn't the case.
I was recently in differences training and we got to talking about this accident. The instructor mentioned that the CVR/FDR info would be released shortly and from what he had been told the CVR wasn't pretty. Plenty of non-standard, makes you embarassed to be a pilot kinda stuff.
I certainly hope that isn't the case.