All Over for Aer Lingus in Four Weeks as BA Gives Thumbs Down to Investment
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I thought that thw whole function of this setup was to spread news and rumours. As already stated - some of us do not have the Times delivered (with our croissants and truffles) - some of us (even ex Aer Lingus employees)live in the sandpit or elsewhere, and welcome what snippets the others can dig up for us. So if you don't like what's posted don't read it ! 
As an a Aer Lingus employee I feel I have to reply to this as all I have read since the original posting has been mostly drivel for such an important topic.While it is true that Aer Lingus is going through a difficult time I believe we will emerge as a strong and profitable airline as a lot of the government imposed fat will be trimmed away and proper managment will be in place.Unfortunately it took the events of Sep.11 to highlight what years of profit were hiding.
That line about the staff burning down the building was given by some union **** to try to increase the redundency package and even he knows that it will not happen.The employees will accept the changes required and the company will emerge leaner and fitter in 2002 not as a sub division of British Airways but as an Irish airline.
While I cannot predict the future all the ingredients are there for this outcome.
So please, no more doom and gloom about Aer Lingus It is not Sabena, it is in a much stronger position and will survive.
P.s. let the Gov. post what he wants sometimes he is right even if some people dont want to hear it.
That line about the staff burning down the building was given by some union **** to try to increase the redundency package and even he knows that it will not happen.The employees will accept the changes required and the company will emerge leaner and fitter in 2002 not as a sub division of British Airways but as an Irish airline.
While I cannot predict the future all the ingredients are there for this outcome.
So please, no more doom and gloom about Aer Lingus It is not Sabena, it is in a much stronger position and will survive.
P.s. let the Gov. post what he wants sometimes he is right even if some people dont want to hear it.
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I support Mad Mitch and all the others that have come out in Support of The Guvnor. We should all be free to express our views so long as we dont cross the fence into insensitve or callous areas.
Whilst the Guvnors posts can be contraversial at times he does put a lot of effort into gathering information reported in the media. I say well done and keep it up Guv.
Whilst the Guvnors posts can be contraversial at times he does put a lot of effort into gathering information reported in the media. I say well done and keep it up Guv.
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Actually, Aer Lingus sold the 734's in question to ILFC, not to the government. No chance the politicians would accept second hand goods. No, instead tax payers money will be wasted on a brand new BBJ that is completely unnecessary. Everything aviation related that this government touches turns to lead...
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The 'government jet' idea touted by Guvnor was first 'rumoured' on an Irish aviation Bulletin Board by a well known teenage reggie spotter.
Complete and utter guff...but swallowed by Guv, hook line and sinker.
He tried to extract the name of the company that had purchased the EI 737s, but nobody seemed to know, and I wasn't gonna tell him because his only aim would be to get on the PPRune site and credit himself with 'all knowingness' while simultaneously criticising EI further.
Here's his quote from the Irish board;
So now you know Guv. ILFC. £40M. Deal done. Happy?
The comments about Ireland not needing a long haul service are arrogant in the extreme. Just what you'd expect from this opinionated twit.
fms146 are you new around here? Since when did the sensationalist doomsaying of the gutter press come to constitute 'information'?
If there were any hacks reading this could I suggest you stick to reporting and desist from your expressions of personal opinion. We'd all get better information.
If the Guvnor could discern the difference between the news and journalistic opinion I'd welcome his contributions...but he prefers lurid headlines like the title on this thread. A 'Sun' reader if I ever saw one.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]
Complete and utter guff...but swallowed by Guv, hook line and sinker.
He tried to extract the name of the company that had purchased the EI 737s, but nobody seemed to know, and I wasn't gonna tell him because his only aim would be to get on the PPRune site and credit himself with 'all knowingness' while simultaneously criticising EI further.
Here's his quote from the Irish board;
Current market value of the two -400s is no more than US$20m for the pair. I could sell you B767-200s tomorrow for $8m each - so at firesale prices I reckon they'd be looking at even less than that - maybe $15m for the pair.
The comments about Ireland not needing a long haul service are arrogant in the extreme. Just what you'd expect from this opinionated twit.
fms146 are you new around here? Since when did the sensationalist doomsaying of the gutter press come to constitute 'information'?
If there were any hacks reading this could I suggest you stick to reporting and desist from your expressions of personal opinion. We'd all get better information.
If the Guvnor could discern the difference between the news and journalistic opinion I'd welcome his contributions...but he prefers lurid headlines like the title on this thread. A 'Sun' reader if I ever saw one.
[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: maxalt ]
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Seems to be a lot of hyperbole surrounding this. Why not look at the facts ???? A fair point has been raised. Look at ex SR & SN, what about KL & AZ?? True, my view is from afar but I have had close dealings with EI in the past and know they are sound and full of great expertise - so the management question should be how to capitalise on the strengths ? It has a sound regional operation, (MAN, LHR, some bits of EUR etc), a secure long haul market (JFK, BOS) so there is a good kernel therein, and the Irish economy generally is in good shape (best call centres in the world) so maybe the question should be how do you turn EI into a profitable airline ?? I used to work for Pan-Am and that was a great operation once too but its overheads & management style never adjusted to a newer business model.... I flew Southwest 6 sectors last week and almost every flight was full, so someone is doing something right out there !!
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Thanks StagN8, fair comment.
The fact is though that even after Sept 11th the majority of Aer Lingus flights are operating at maximum loads. The average London flight during weekdays is working out at 50% biz cabin (full) and 50% economy (full).
While Aer Lingus management try putting on the poor mouth the troops are seeing the truth at the coal face. The management try playing down the load factors saying the seats are mostly low revenue economy class deals they've been promoting. But they don't explain why having half the cabin full of top revenue earning biz class pax is losing money!
If they can't make a profit on a LHR flight with 100 biz class pax (as they've been getting) then they're never ever gonna make money.
The point being of course...they're making money alright.
The fact is though that even after Sept 11th the majority of Aer Lingus flights are operating at maximum loads. The average London flight during weekdays is working out at 50% biz cabin (full) and 50% economy (full).
While Aer Lingus management try putting on the poor mouth the troops are seeing the truth at the coal face. The management try playing down the load factors saying the seats are mostly low revenue economy class deals they've been promoting. But they don't explain why having half the cabin full of top revenue earning biz class pax is losing money!
If they can't make a profit on a LHR flight with 100 biz class pax (as they've been getting) then they're never ever gonna make money.
The point being of course...they're making money alright.
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maxalt - you're demonstrating you don't know the first thing about airline economics. The load factors don't matter a jot - it's the yield that matters. ALT's nett yields are the lowest around (in fact they're in negative territory at the present due to their attempts to stimulate traffic growth - but then so were FRs £5 and £10 fares).
If ALT can't make itself profitable, then it shouldn't be here - rather it should fold and make way for a new operator. Perhaps then the government might realise that all the warnings people have been giving them about the SNN stop-over killing airlines are, in fact true - but the problem is that right now they have been told that so often it's a case of "yeah, yeah, so what? People are still flying, aren't they? Let's keep the westerners (and their votes in the Dial) sweet ...)
Latest on the ALT situation...
If ALT can't make itself profitable, then it shouldn't be here - rather it should fold and make way for a new operator. Perhaps then the government might realise that all the warnings people have been giving them about the SNN stop-over killing airlines are, in fact true - but the problem is that right now they have been told that so often it's a case of "yeah, yeah, so what? People are still flying, aren't they? Let's keep the westerners (and their votes in the Dial) sweet ...)
Latest on the ALT situation...
As negotiations to secure the future of Aer Lingus continue, unions representing the airline's employees have urged the Irish Government to come to the rescue.
Since the September 11th terrorist attacks, Aer Lingus, which relies heavily on transatlantic routes, has been forced to cut up to 40% of its workforce, reduce its schedule by a quarter and slash prices to fend off competition from budget operator Ryanair. Noel Dowling of the SIPTU union told news channel UTV that there was still some way to go before the future of the business and its remaining employees could be assured, urging the Government to play bigger role.
The European Commissioner for Transport Loyola De Palacio, who has refused to relax the laws governing state aid in order to protect competition, will strictly regulate any intervention from the Irish Government.
Since the September 11th terrorist attacks, Aer Lingus, which relies heavily on transatlantic routes, has been forced to cut up to 40% of its workforce, reduce its schedule by a quarter and slash prices to fend off competition from budget operator Ryanair. Noel Dowling of the SIPTU union told news channel UTV that there was still some way to go before the future of the business and its remaining employees could be assured, urging the Government to play bigger role.
The European Commissioner for Transport Loyola De Palacio, who has refused to relax the laws governing state aid in order to protect competition, will strictly regulate any intervention from the Irish Government.
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100 pax at a sample biz class fare of £400IEP is £40,000IEP. 85 economy pax at a sample £100IEP (promotional) economy fare is £8,500IEP. Total of £48,500IEP revenue on an Aer Lingus A321 from Dublin to LHR.
The 'net yield' on the above revenue is a matter of dispute matey, and you don't know any better than I do exactly what it is because it is highly confidential info.
I'd agree that it's probably not as high as we'd like it, but 2026 jobs are about to be shed, and if that can't yield a substasntial turnaround in the net figure then there is no hope.
The most interesting fact is that thousands of punters want to pay biz class fares every day to travel between Dublin and London, so even if ALT goes tomorrow someone else is going to pick up the biz, and it ain't gonna be a Ryanair cattle car.
By the way...any explanations on how you were so wildly off target with your pronouncements on the aircraft sale?
Keep it coming...you're definitely good for a laugh.
The 'net yield' on the above revenue is a matter of dispute matey, and you don't know any better than I do exactly what it is because it is highly confidential info.
I'd agree that it's probably not as high as we'd like it, but 2026 jobs are about to be shed, and if that can't yield a substasntial turnaround in the net figure then there is no hope.
The most interesting fact is that thousands of punters want to pay biz class fares every day to travel between Dublin and London, so even if ALT goes tomorrow someone else is going to pick up the biz, and it ain't gonna be a Ryanair cattle car.
By the way...any explanations on how you were so wildly off target with your pronouncements on the aircraft sale?
Keep it coming...you're definitely good for a laugh.
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maxalt - you're assuming there that every pax is point to point which is blatantly incorrect. You'll need to dilute those revenues substantially (like by at least 50%) to take into account prorate. Next, you're again assuming that everyone is paying market fares. There will be a lot of corporate customers and government employees in C class - so knock off a few percent for that as well (like 25%). Next, factor in all the staff passengers plus people travelling on ID and AD tickets and I would be very surprised indeed if the average A321 is yielding much over IR£20k - if that.
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maxalt,
hate to quibble but...
I have yet to see an EI SH flight with 20 biz rows... how else do you get 100 biz pax in an A32x?
On my recent excursions to LHR the biz seats were 1-7 outbound [35] and 1-6 inbound [30] ex SNN. Same ex ORK last time I flew that sector.
hate to quibble but...
I have yet to see an EI SH flight with 20 biz rows... how else do you get 100 biz pax in an A32x?
On my recent excursions to LHR the biz seats were 1-7 outbound [35] and 1-6 inbound [30] ex SNN. Same ex ORK last time I flew that sector.
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Guvnor much as you wil hate it, but maxalt is right. Flights ex LHR and DUB and other UK routes are overflowing with execs. 90-100 execs is not unusual. MAN has had up to 60 on the 146! LGW is full both way too. Never mind the pax, but there is a lot of freight going EI's way so tell me where the yield is so low. Staff can't get on the flights they're full!!!!!
Regardless of what FR say their profits will be DOWN this year, DUB is still waiting for all these new routes MOL has touted for ages!
The EI 321s have movable curtains, how many times have you heard Premier boarded up to row 17??????
Regardless of what FR say their profits will be DOWN this year, DUB is still waiting for all these new routes MOL has touted for ages!
The EI 321s have movable curtains, how many times have you heard Premier boarded up to row 17??????
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MarkD, quibble away. Aer Lingus' A320s and A321s have variable geometry seating. They can convert the whole cabin to exec config in a matter of minutes.
If you want to trust someone, trust me...don't be another mug hanging on every word of a spoofer like The Guvnor. He has a big enough fan club on here already.
If you want to trust someone, trust me...don't be another mug hanging on every word of a spoofer like The Guvnor. He has a big enough fan club on here already.
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maxalt,
DUB-LHR is not the only route EI flies. If it was, your maths would be spot on. What I said was, an A320/321 CAN have 15-20 biz rows, but the other routes never see more than 8 or 9. On average, it surely works out at no better than 11-12??
Your figures assume every flight is a peak time biz heavy flight, I'm merely saying it's a bit of a stretch.
DUB-LHR is not the only route EI flies. If it was, your maths would be spot on. What I said was, an A320/321 CAN have 15-20 biz rows, but the other routes never see more than 8 or 9. On average, it surely works out at no better than 11-12??
Your figures assume every flight is a peak time biz heavy flight, I'm merely saying it's a bit of a stretch.
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The point here is that LHR flights ex-Dub ARE full.You say those tickets are low-price..but did the EI ticket sale not specify that all low cost tickets were for use before Nov.1st? Exec can go back to row 21 on a 321 or 16 on a 320.Yes they are on business deals but its still a big hunk of cash compared to FR.Lately we staff have had difficulty getting on those flights during the week.
The flights quoted by MarkD are ex-ORK and ex-SHN,these routes are not as full and never have been.EI has to keep these routes as Gov. policy.I will agree with him that these route seldom have more than 10 rows of exec.But as a staff member we are told that DUB-LHR is our major source of income after the trans-atlantic routes.
The flights quoted by MarkD are ex-ORK and ex-SHN,these routes are not as full and never have been.EI has to keep these routes as Gov. policy.I will agree with him that these route seldom have more than 10 rows of exec.But as a staff member we are told that DUB-LHR is our major source of income after the trans-atlantic routes.
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Minuteman - I'm not disagreeing at all with maxalt's assessment of the mix between C and Y on the DUB-LHR route. However, I am strongly disagreeing with him as far as the nett yields on the route are concerned; as I happen to know that a very large percentage of traffic is connecting traffic (mainly onto BA - EI of course being a OneWorld member).
On top of that, MarkD is right about the average composition on most other routes.
The problem with ALT is that if you take away the transatlantic traffic (which was also comparatively low yield) the whole house of cards collapses. It's therefore - as I've said here and on the Irish board - an unsustainable business model and deserves to go the same way as SR, SN etc.
Only when it actually goes out of business will the people at the Dial get their collective fingers out and comprehend the amount of commercial and economic damage that the SNN stopover policy causes Ireland; and hopefully get rid of it. This will then allow ALT2 to be a considerably more viable operation than what exists at present.
On top of that, MarkD is right about the average composition on most other routes.
The problem with ALT is that if you take away the transatlantic traffic (which was also comparatively low yield) the whole house of cards collapses. It's therefore - as I've said here and on the Irish board - an unsustainable business model and deserves to go the same way as SR, SN etc.
Only when it actually goes out of business will the people at the Dial get their collective fingers out and comprehend the amount of commercial and economic damage that the SNN stopover policy causes Ireland; and hopefully get rid of it. This will then allow ALT2 to be a considerably more viable operation than what exists at present.
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Bramble, EI keeping on to Cork-Heathrow just because it is Government policy? You must be kidding but I concede that EI on Shannon-Heathrow is something that is far more likely to be politically influenced by the Shannon mafia all right. DUB-LHR may well be EI's major source of income now becuse of the increase of business passengers but I would argue strongly that say up to four to five years ago that per capita ORK-LHR gave a greater return to EI that DUB-LHR did.
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Dear Members,
Yield is the priority. In fairness over the past couple of years, yield management has held the figures pretty well. I know from the amount of times I've checked into flights that most of them were in an oversold state and with pretty decent fares. The weak ones into Heathrow were early morning with the prorates onwards to the States in particular. This has now been stopped with the first few flights in the morning restricted to normal fares.
ON the US. LAX appears to have lowish loads with JFK staying pretty strong from both Shannon and Dublin. I would imagine, Italy and Germany hold decent yields, they certainly hold high fares with the lowest on Rome at the moment over £250iep.
EI needs to contract while the Irish economy is doing it's current thing. Consumer's are starting to spend again after last months list of job cuts, so it all remains to be seen if they spend on travel or not.
Slan Leat
FF
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Yield is the priority. In fairness over the past couple of years, yield management has held the figures pretty well. I know from the amount of times I've checked into flights that most of them were in an oversold state and with pretty decent fares. The weak ones into Heathrow were early morning with the prorates onwards to the States in particular. This has now been stopped with the first few flights in the morning restricted to normal fares.
ON the US. LAX appears to have lowish loads with JFK staying pretty strong from both Shannon and Dublin. I would imagine, Italy and Germany hold decent yields, they certainly hold high fares with the lowest on Rome at the moment over £250iep.
EI needs to contract while the Irish economy is doing it's current thing. Consumer's are starting to spend again after last months list of job cuts, so it all remains to be seen if they spend on travel or not.
Slan Leat
FF
[img]null[/img]
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Where are you'll getting this here fare information? From the EI website today!
ORIG: IRELAND
Heathrow from IR £54
Paris from IR £79
Amsterdam from IR £102
Dusseldorf from IR £102
Munich from IR £134
Milan from IR £134
Rome from IR £213
New York (JFK) from IR £250
ORIG: UK
Dublin from GB £30
Cork from GB £50
ORIG: USA
Dublin from GB £30
Cork from GB £50
Shannon from US $228
Dublin from US $338
ORIG: EUROPE
Dublin from NL 251
Cork from FR 859
Also, on the Irishtimes website they had an add for EI tickets from JFK to DUB/Shannon for $199 return.
Now, does EI want to make money or are they trying to go broke?
ORIG: IRELAND
Heathrow from IR £54
Paris from IR £79
Amsterdam from IR £102
Dusseldorf from IR £102
Munich from IR £134
Milan from IR £134
Rome from IR £213
New York (JFK) from IR £250
ORIG: UK
Dublin from GB £30
Cork from GB £50
ORIG: USA
Dublin from GB £30
Cork from GB £50
Shannon from US $228
Dublin from US $338
ORIG: EUROPE
Dublin from NL 251
Cork from FR 859
Also, on the Irishtimes website they had an add for EI tickets from JFK to DUB/Shannon for $199 return.
Now, does EI want to make money or are they trying to go broke?