Ryanair & Air Arran Bomb Threat Diversions to PIK (merged)
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issi noho,
So you think it would have been a better plan to fly them through the London TMA, over the city or close one of the major airports you named do you. Although i stated that they probably knew it to be a hoax there is a procedure to follow, a set of SOPs. The passengers will get squat by way of compensation for this unless they sue the fool that wrote the note. The pax could have been held for much longer than they were. I am sure that the police are sorry for the inconvenience but thats as far as it goes.
So you think it would have been a better plan to fly them through the London TMA, over the city or close one of the major airports you named do you. Although i stated that they probably knew it to be a hoax there is a procedure to follow, a set of SOPs. The passengers will get squat by way of compensation for this unless they sue the fool that wrote the note. The pax could have been held for much longer than they were. I am sure that the police are sorry for the inconvenience but thats as far as it goes.
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The police were sorry for shooting a Brazilian and that wasn't as far as it went. Endangering persons on board an aircraft is an offence whether you meant to or not, as a passenger you only have to argue who endangered you the most. The person who wrote the note is an IDIOT, the person who found it did what they must - take it seriously. The Capt informs ATC and hopefully tells them HIS/HER intentions.
ATC have their procedures with regard to who to advise. Now this is what we're guessing about; the details go up the chain of command probably to the top, they look at the info 1. Paris--- shoe bomber---bad 2. Ireland--- used to be bad --bad 3. note----specific threat---bad
Already too many bads, so lets play it by the book- instigate the plan
back down the chain of command right the way back to the controller - instigate the plan; great idea, what plan? never mind I'll deal with it.
ACC; TC got a paddy with a bomb where do you want him for STN
TC; hes not going north of LHR it'll screw up my outbounds for the Ocean, not going south about coz Gordon B is coming thru DVR on a Kittyhawk. Can't go over the top?
ACC; no, don't worry he can go dct TRN to PIK.
Now back to reality, this was a very real bomb threat but the actions taken up the chain of command were for a very real unlawful interference event, that is the mistake. As usual, the contingency plans must have been written but putting them into practice fell short of the required standard. I wish the Captain had declared his intention to divert and followed it thru with or without a clearance, I hope he would not have been shot down but I wouldn't bet on it.
ATC have their procedures with regard to who to advise. Now this is what we're guessing about; the details go up the chain of command probably to the top, they look at the info 1. Paris--- shoe bomber---bad 2. Ireland--- used to be bad --bad 3. note----specific threat---bad
Already too many bads, so lets play it by the book- instigate the plan
back down the chain of command right the way back to the controller - instigate the plan; great idea, what plan? never mind I'll deal with it.
ACC; TC got a paddy with a bomb where do you want him for STN
TC; hes not going north of LHR it'll screw up my outbounds for the Ocean, not going south about coz Gordon B is coming thru DVR on a Kittyhawk. Can't go over the top?
ACC; no, don't worry he can go dct TRN to PIK.
Now back to reality, this was a very real bomb threat but the actions taken up the chain of command were for a very real unlawful interference event, that is the mistake. As usual, the contingency plans must have been written but putting them into practice fell short of the required standard. I wish the Captain had declared his intention to divert and followed it thru with or without a clearance, I hope he would not have been shot down but I wouldn't bet on it.
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Issi noho I understand what you are trying to say I really do BUT…
You are making huge assumptions. The Captain is in command of the aircraft but he doesn't have the information to make a decision to divert.
The note was received in flight. Who wrote it? Are they still on board? Is this going to escalate to a hijack situation? Which agencies need to be involved? Who are the passengers? What nationality are they? What is the security at the departure airport like? All these questions are being processed while the aircraft is still in the air. If the Captain had unilaterally decided to divert to another airport there would have been even more chaos. Somebody said earlier in the thread that the Prime Minister was involved. He would have been. Several Cabinet ministered would have been gathered. The Commissioner of Police would begin forming a team. The SAS bleeps would have started and a team already deploying to PIK. This may sound like fantasy land or way over the top but this is what happens. The bill for this is huge. The man power is huge. A couple of hours delay for the Pax isn’t even in the equation.
You are making huge assumptions. The Captain is in command of the aircraft but he doesn't have the information to make a decision to divert.
The note was received in flight. Who wrote it? Are they still on board? Is this going to escalate to a hijack situation? Which agencies need to be involved? Who are the passengers? What nationality are they? What is the security at the departure airport like? All these questions are being processed while the aircraft is still in the air. If the Captain had unilaterally decided to divert to another airport there would have been even more chaos. Somebody said earlier in the thread that the Prime Minister was involved. He would have been. Several Cabinet ministered would have been gathered. The Commissioner of Police would begin forming a team. The SAS bleeps would have started and a team already deploying to PIK. This may sound like fantasy land or way over the top but this is what happens. The bill for this is huge. The man power is huge. A couple of hours delay for the Pax isn’t even in the equation.
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bomb threats happen, probably not as much as they used to, but they happen and most of the time they never get beyond the airline security responce team. I completely accept what you say and agree that is what happened but strangely enough the Captain could have done what ever he wanted, he could have assessed the note as rubbish drawn by a child and said nothing on RT.
Some years ago I operated a series of flight thru LAX, very night we had a bomb warning, every night the aircraft was searched by LAPD. After a week or so we still got threats but stopped acting on them and operated the flight on time and were sued by the pax who won very considerable compensation.
As with everythnig its what you learn from an incident/cock up that matters but I really think we have not heard the end of it yet.
Some years ago I operated a series of flight thru LAX, very night we had a bomb warning, every night the aircraft was searched by LAPD. After a week or so we still got threats but stopped acting on them and operated the flight on time and were sued by the pax who won very considerable compensation.
As with everythnig its what you learn from an incident/cock up that matters but I really think we have not heard the end of it yet.
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Originally Posted by issi noho
the Captain could have done what ever he wanted, he could have assessed the note as rubbish drawn by a child and said nothing on RT.
And the day that a business or government body deems a threat a hoax simply because they've had a run of them is the day that it happens.
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Ok , real bomb threat onboard.
A/c lands somewhere, engines shut down in remote parking area.Flight is over as for as I'm concerned.
Someone announces we as pax would be held on board for sometime.
Next thing I'm doing is cracking door 1L regardless of CC instructions and if slide does not deploy, I'm sitting on the bottom sill and easing my way to the ground (B737) and making my way away from the A/C.
By the way, has the idiot who passed the note been arrested?
A/c lands somewhere, engines shut down in remote parking area.Flight is over as for as I'm concerned.
Someone announces we as pax would be held on board for sometime.
Next thing I'm doing is cracking door 1L regardless of CC instructions and if slide does not deploy, I'm sitting on the bottom sill and easing my way to the ground (B737) and making my way away from the A/C.
By the way, has the idiot who passed the note been arrested?
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BritBoy- well he has some security training and would probably have decided it was worth diverting but I bet he wouldn't have chosen Prestwick, and I bet he wouldn't point out Lockerbie as he flew over it either (do they get hard hats in that town)
Pleased they've got a suspect in custody, that means we can have trial and find out what happened.
Pleased they've got a suspect in custody, that means we can have trial and find out what happened.
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In the case of a bomb threat like this, where I am sure the authorities knew with some degree of certainty that it was a hoax ...
I do not think that anyone in this particular situation can be properly second guessed so quickly after the event (even though it happens all the time here), but neither do I think that assumptions or deductions such as the one quoted above could possibly be justified after an unfortunate outcome.
Given what we now know can you imagine the following being among the conclusions after an inquiry:
……….
1.5 The established assumption that most bomb warnings are hoaxes contributed to confused lines of communication and decision making responsibility,
1.6 The failure of the commander to determine the basis on which he was obliged to retain the passengers on board contributed to the disaster,
1.7 The lack of clarity as to the responsibilities of those involved was a contributory factor, but the commander was the individual with explicit responsibility for taking appropriate steps to assure the safety of the passengers,
1.8 In the absence of overwhelming grounds or clear justification for retaining the passengers on board the commander should have taken command of the situation,
1.9 It is clear in retrospect that the passengers were held - within seconds of reaching safety - for a sustained period due to the unwillingness of the commander to insist on a resolution of the conflicting information he had received,
2.0 It is not known what the pressures and perceptions of the commander and crew actually were, but the unwillingness to take command of the situation suggest that the commander was not confident that the decision to evacuate the aircraft could be successfully defended or justified,
Etc. etc.
What would everbody be saying if this was the outcome?
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Originally Posted by Rollingthunder
Next thing I'm doing is cracking door 1L regardless of CC instructions and if slide does not deploy, I'm sitting on the bottom sill and easing my way to the ground (B737) and making my way away from the A/C.
By the way, has the idiot who passed the note been arrested?
By the way, has the idiot who passed the note been arrested?
"Passengers aren't waiting for orders from the crew in emergencies - sometimes to their own detriment."
It's dangerous, it's foolish and can lead to much more dire circumstances.
This posting on a forum is becoming addictive....I must stop it. But before I do......
Re the attitude that a bomb threat is a hoax until proved otherwise, because there are so many. The anecdote below illustrates a similar mindset.
In a period of heightened threat in the Middle East some years ago, baggage identification by passengers as they boarded was routine.
And it came to pass that, after about 3 months of doing these and finding bag after bag left on the apron unidentified, another check was done (for a full L1011 service operated by a high risk airline) which resulted in a bag being left behind. This was carried to the edge of the apron and forgotten, just like all the others.
And 60 minutes or so later, it exploded with considerable force on a time switch, killing the loader who was sitting on it for a short rest.
The aircraft it wasn't on was over the ocean, and its crew and passengers lived/will live, I hope, to a ripe old age.
One other thing...the flight was a few minutes behind schedule. The Captain (British) had tried to over-rule the baggage ID check procedure as "A total waste of my time and yours. It's people like you applying the rules blindly, without any common sense, that cause all the problems".
Re the attitude that a bomb threat is a hoax until proved otherwise, because there are so many. The anecdote below illustrates a similar mindset.
In a period of heightened threat in the Middle East some years ago, baggage identification by passengers as they boarded was routine.
And it came to pass that, after about 3 months of doing these and finding bag after bag left on the apron unidentified, another check was done (for a full L1011 service operated by a high risk airline) which resulted in a bag being left behind. This was carried to the edge of the apron and forgotten, just like all the others.
And 60 minutes or so later, it exploded with considerable force on a time switch, killing the loader who was sitting on it for a short rest.
The aircraft it wasn't on was over the ocean, and its crew and passengers lived/will live, I hope, to a ripe old age.
One other thing...the flight was a few minutes behind schedule. The Captain (British) had tried to over-rule the baggage ID check procedure as "A total waste of my time and yours. It's people like you applying the rules blindly, without any common sense, that cause all the problems".
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[Bbritanniaboy][/B]
You protect your own life following some amateur official's dictates whose been through a few classroom scenarios and thinks he knows it all with no actual experience.Your trust in jobsworths is mind boggling.
Protect your own life where you think things are going bad really fast.
You protect your own life following some amateur official's dictates whose been through a few classroom scenarios and thinks he knows it all with no actual experience.Your trust in jobsworths is mind boggling.
Protect your own life where you think things are going bad really fast.
Last edited by Rollingthunder; 15th Apr 2006 at 08:58.
If the situation warrants a diversion it also warrants a rapid de-plane after landing and if no facility is provided for that, an evacuation down the slides. Stuff what the police or ATC are telling you, get them, and yourself, off the aircraft ASAP.
There can be no half measures with this sort of thing, you either assume there is no threat (duty free bag left in the locker after a flight) or you assume there is a threat in which case you treat it as a real bomb until you know different. Heads need to roll for keeping them onboard, what a complete screw up. As it turned out there was no harm done but it could have been one of biggest cock-ups in aviation history, a successful diversion and landing followed by an explosion 30 minutes later killing all the passengers and crew because they were still sitting on the aircraft. Makes my blood run cold to be honest.
There can be no half measures with this sort of thing, you either assume there is no threat (duty free bag left in the locker after a flight) or you assume there is a threat in which case you treat it as a real bomb until you know different. Heads need to roll for keeping them onboard, what a complete screw up. As it turned out there was no harm done but it could have been one of biggest cock-ups in aviation history, a successful diversion and landing followed by an explosion 30 minutes later killing all the passengers and crew because they were still sitting on the aircraft. Makes my blood run cold to be honest.
Last edited by Max Angle; 14th Apr 2006 at 14:56.
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Sorry Rolling Thunder, regardless of you're (rather dismissive sounding) views on the training crew go through, are you honestly saying that a passenger initiated evac is better than one initiated by the crew?
A passenger who thinks (s)he knows an aircraft better than it's crew is a dangerous ones.
And, by the by, I find your remark somewhat offensive and if you are a professional pilot, deeply disturbing.
A passenger who thinks (s)he knows an aircraft better than it's crew is a dangerous ones.
And, by the by, I find your remark somewhat offensive and if you are a professional pilot, deeply disturbing.
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Heads need to roll for keeping them onboard, what a complete screw up.
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Can you cite an instance where a bomb warning to a flight was not a hoax ?
(By the way, I do think there have been a couple of bomb warnings prior to aircaft losses in the distant past ... an insurance scam comes faintly to mind, but I cannot be sure).
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This episode is very disturbing simply because the Captain was refused permission by the authorities to do what the law requires him to do - ensure, as far as possible, the safety of his aircraft and everyone on it.
Leave aside the issue of the a/c being diverted to PIK. That's the prerogative of the UK government and if that's where they have planned for such events then that's where the a/c will go.
It was when the a/c got on the ground that the real problem started. Captain unable to exercise his responsibility to ensure the safety of the pax. He and he alone in law is the one charged with this responsibility during flight time (in the Irish context that means until the last person including himself has left the a/c).
I'm sure there are very good reasons why he didn't just tell them all to bugger off and throw everyone down the slides. However, the real issue is what happens the next time this occurs? If it's me, I'm going to divert to the nearest suitable airfield and to hell with the consequences. I'm well prepared to face any court on that one. And even more to the point, how many of us will tell ATC the truth about our diversion? Very few, I'd suggest, after this debacle.
In the FR 25 case, there should have been no problem in getting the pax off the a/c - even if the authorities believed (reasonably) that there might be a bomber among them. Get the pax off, away from the potential bomb that the a/c was, search each one in turn and get them all to a safe secure (so they can't run away) location. The rest of the search for the guilty one (probably from a previous flight) could go ahead without any problem and all, including the crew, at the very least would have been safe.
Whoever decided that these pax would not be allowed off the a/c has just royally screwed up every future problem in this area.
Which of us is going to tell ATC the truth from now on if this is what is going to happen? Certainly not me. I'd much rather that the one terrorist that I might have on board the a/c blows himself up on the ground than in my aircraft. And never forget, Mr Tony Blair, that as long as I'm the Captain I will do all I can to ensure the safety on my pax and crew regardless of what you and the security services may try to do to stop me. I'm prepared to bet that most Captains will do the same thing. Now where is that going to leave aviation security?
Last of all, if the culprit is found, let's hope he gets a long stretch in the slammer - preferably in the IOM where they give these idiots the required treatment.
Let's hope that BALPA, IALPA and IFALPA really make their voices heard on this to ensure that sensible and workable security procedures are put in place for the future. WE all wish to help the security services in this regard but not is such lunatic policies are pursued. Time for some clear thinking.
Leave aside the issue of the a/c being diverted to PIK. That's the prerogative of the UK government and if that's where they have planned for such events then that's where the a/c will go.
It was when the a/c got on the ground that the real problem started. Captain unable to exercise his responsibility to ensure the safety of the pax. He and he alone in law is the one charged with this responsibility during flight time (in the Irish context that means until the last person including himself has left the a/c).
I'm sure there are very good reasons why he didn't just tell them all to bugger off and throw everyone down the slides. However, the real issue is what happens the next time this occurs? If it's me, I'm going to divert to the nearest suitable airfield and to hell with the consequences. I'm well prepared to face any court on that one. And even more to the point, how many of us will tell ATC the truth about our diversion? Very few, I'd suggest, after this debacle.
In the FR 25 case, there should have been no problem in getting the pax off the a/c - even if the authorities believed (reasonably) that there might be a bomber among them. Get the pax off, away from the potential bomb that the a/c was, search each one in turn and get them all to a safe secure (so they can't run away) location. The rest of the search for the guilty one (probably from a previous flight) could go ahead without any problem and all, including the crew, at the very least would have been safe.
Whoever decided that these pax would not be allowed off the a/c has just royally screwed up every future problem in this area.
Which of us is going to tell ATC the truth from now on if this is what is going to happen? Certainly not me. I'd much rather that the one terrorist that I might have on board the a/c blows himself up on the ground than in my aircraft. And never forget, Mr Tony Blair, that as long as I'm the Captain I will do all I can to ensure the safety on my pax and crew regardless of what you and the security services may try to do to stop me. I'm prepared to bet that most Captains will do the same thing. Now where is that going to leave aviation security?
Last of all, if the culprit is found, let's hope he gets a long stretch in the slammer - preferably in the IOM where they give these idiots the required treatment.
Let's hope that BALPA, IALPA and IFALPA really make their voices heard on this to ensure that sensible and workable security procedures are put in place for the future. WE all wish to help the security services in this regard but not is such lunatic policies are pursued. Time for some clear thinking.
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britanniaboy
Sorry but I don't think you're reading my posts accurately.
I wouldn't be initiating an evacuation - I would be hoofing it. Everyone can make their own decisions.
Iam not denigrating the CC as they are only following instructions from the Fd, who are following instructions from ATC, who are following instructions from some ad hoc management- type team that gets to deal with these situations maybe once every five years.
Once the ac lands and shuts down the episode of my having to trust my life to someone else is over. There is always a point where you need to take responsibility for your own survival. Others are welcome to be sheep if they wish.
Me, I'll be taking a nap on the grass about a hundred metres from the ac awaiting debriefing.
Sorry but I don't think you're reading my posts accurately.
I wouldn't be initiating an evacuation - I would be hoofing it. Everyone can make their own decisions.
Iam not denigrating the CC as they are only following instructions from the Fd, who are following instructions from ATC, who are following instructions from some ad hoc management- type team that gets to deal with these situations maybe once every five years.
Once the ac lands and shuts down the episode of my having to trust my life to someone else is over. There is always a point where you need to take responsibility for your own survival. Others are welcome to be sheep if they wish.
Me, I'll be taking a nap on the grass about a hundred metres from the ac awaiting debriefing.