Gulf Air PCE addresses on DLR assessments.
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Gulf Air PCE addresses on DLR assessments.
To all pilots(Gulf Air),
Since November 2000 Gulf Air has been sending pilots to the DLR aviation and Space Psychology Department in Germany that offers psychological assessments for aviation personnel.These assessments have proven to be excellent aid for the Gulf Air pilot selection.
The DLR is an independent non-profit scientific research organisation with 50 years experience and with highest credibility in the industry,interviewing in excess of 2000 pilots per year for the major airlines in Europe and elsewhere.
DLR conducts the following aviation psycological assessments for Gulf Air personnel:
**Personality and flight management attitude assessments for First and Second Officers to determine command potential,pilots with previous airline experience applying for entry to the company and all other Gulf Air pilots-including Captains- whose performance and /or attitude could be improved.
**Assessment of basic aptitude,psychomotor skills and personality for pilot applicants at the ab-initio level,including licence holders,with low experience levels,applying for their first airline position,and applicants with no previous aeronautical experience whatsoever.
Captains who have a proven record of high standard of competency are exempted from this assessment.
I wanted to give you this brief for your information,understanding and support.
Ibrahim Abdulla Al Hamer.
President & Chief Executive
Gulf Air.
[This message has been edited by pritvius (edited 15 June 2001).]
Since November 2000 Gulf Air has been sending pilots to the DLR aviation and Space Psychology Department in Germany that offers psychological assessments for aviation personnel.These assessments have proven to be excellent aid for the Gulf Air pilot selection.
The DLR is an independent non-profit scientific research organisation with 50 years experience and with highest credibility in the industry,interviewing in excess of 2000 pilots per year for the major airlines in Europe and elsewhere.
DLR conducts the following aviation psycological assessments for Gulf Air personnel:
**Personality and flight management attitude assessments for First and Second Officers to determine command potential,pilots with previous airline experience applying for entry to the company and all other Gulf Air pilots-including Captains- whose performance and /or attitude could be improved.
**Assessment of basic aptitude,psychomotor skills and personality for pilot applicants at the ab-initio level,including licence holders,with low experience levels,applying for their first airline position,and applicants with no previous aeronautical experience whatsoever.
Captains who have a proven record of high standard of competency are exempted from this assessment.
I wanted to give you this brief for your information,understanding and support.
Ibrahim Abdulla Al Hamer.
President & Chief Executive
Gulf Air.
[This message has been edited by pritvius (edited 15 June 2001).]
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It is good idea if all of us do it, it doen't matter how many of us will make through or not but it is fair for every one us to go through DLR not just F/O and S/O or SELECTED CAPTS, that's is UNFAIR.. i have been flying with some guys who are now CAPTS and i thing they need it. I hope soon we will be able to DLR not just few capt who fails base check but ALL OF US.. or does the company know how many will make it?
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Gf 001... IMHO these tests DO matter to you as a GF Fo and you better pass them.
My concern is, if you badly fail your DLR tests, you will thus become unemployable at GF as a pilot and GF will terminate you.
My information is, there will be no resits, or retraining or financial compensation on offer to you.
If you only fail the upgrade tests you will be a permanent GF Fo.for all your flying life.
You effectively take two chances of a career set back if you agree to these tests. Total career wipe out, or never a command.
Do you have an increasing and ongoing problem working with or takeing instruction from another pilot who is senior to you?
If so DLR would be very interested in that, and to help your career down the toilet.
Anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as I would like to be wrong on this one.
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 17 June 2001).]
My concern is, if you badly fail your DLR tests, you will thus become unemployable at GF as a pilot and GF will terminate you.
My information is, there will be no resits, or retraining or financial compensation on offer to you.
If you only fail the upgrade tests you will be a permanent GF Fo.for all your flying life.
You effectively take two chances of a career set back if you agree to these tests. Total career wipe out, or never a command.
Do you have an increasing and ongoing problem working with or takeing instruction from another pilot who is senior to you?
If so DLR would be very interested in that, and to help your career down the toilet.
Anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as I would like to be wrong on this one.
[This message has been edited by scanscanscan (edited 17 June 2001).]
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The policy on the testing by DLR has been spelt out in the letter of the PCE.
Pilots whose skill and/or attitude could be improved will be subjected to the test. Those with a proven good record will be exempt.
So, who decides that this or that pilot needs an improvement? If his flying skills are okay, then maybe his attitude could be improved! Send him to DLR !
On the other hand, all the managers and the examiners / training captains have a good proven record.So they will be exempt!
Now isn't that unfair?
If there has to be a company policy for all then the testing should start from the Examiners and the Managers, and only then filter to the rungs below.
Pilots whose skill and/or attitude could be improved will be subjected to the test. Those with a proven good record will be exempt.
So, who decides that this or that pilot needs an improvement? If his flying skills are okay, then maybe his attitude could be improved! Send him to DLR !
On the other hand, all the managers and the examiners / training captains have a good proven record.So they will be exempt!
Now isn't that unfair?
If there has to be a company policy for all then the testing should start from the Examiners and the Managers, and only then filter to the rungs below.
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Has anyone of the lofty ranks considered what the process is if the DLR recommends an applicant to be removed from flying?? Any second opinions, therapy, training or the easy route?? What would the LH unions ( oops that nasty word) have in place for this situation.
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ok boys, the option you get if you are a capt. is to fly on the RHS for a period of time that Dr. K. Goeters and his deputy Dr. Peter Maschke, of DLR recomends. it happened to a local capt. who was on the A320. he will fly B767 as a F/O for the next 2yrs as recomended by DLR.if you are an F/O, you have no option but to remain in your RHS for the rest of your life !!!! an insane F/O though could one day find himself in charge of an a/c in case of commanders incapacitation...WHO KNOWS?!!
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2High
IMHO...Haveing been there I can understand why nobody is confident enough to post on this psyco. testing, mid captain career stuff.
It is SO lethal and SO fatal to a hard earned pilot career it takes the breath away.
This psyco. testing anytime in a pilots career is NOT going to go away,it is a growth industry, there are lots of profits in it for everyone and pilots are simply the commodity.
You can imagine certain airline managements in dispute with their crews eager to use this wepon on vocal union members.
I expect some postings from British Airways pilots when their managers use mid career testing.
I am aware that "they say" only captains considered below standard will be affected. I doubt that will be true when a manager, even a BA manager, has a pilot in front of him and can easily use this psyco.testing to be rid of him, or hound him to an early grave.
The sequence of 1 Psyco report. 2 Ground him. 3 Refer to medical dept 4 Further medical report 5 Hand over the pilot to personnel dept. 6 Resignation or termination.
I believe will become the sop for exit via the psyco route.
IMHO...Haveing been there I can understand why nobody is confident enough to post on this psyco. testing, mid captain career stuff.
It is SO lethal and SO fatal to a hard earned pilot career it takes the breath away.
This psyco. testing anytime in a pilots career is NOT going to go away,it is a growth industry, there are lots of profits in it for everyone and pilots are simply the commodity.
You can imagine certain airline managements in dispute with their crews eager to use this wepon on vocal union members.
I expect some postings from British Airways pilots when their managers use mid career testing.
I am aware that "they say" only captains considered below standard will be affected. I doubt that will be true when a manager, even a BA manager, has a pilot in front of him and can easily use this psyco.testing to be rid of him, or hound him to an early grave.
The sequence of 1 Psyco report. 2 Ground him. 3 Refer to medical dept 4 Further medical report 5 Hand over the pilot to personnel dept. 6 Resignation or termination.
I believe will become the sop for exit via the psyco route.
Guest
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"Has anyone of the lofty ranks considered what the process is if the DLR recommends an applicant to be removed from flying?? Any second opinions, therapy, training or the easy route?? What would the LH unions ( oops that nasty word) have in place for this situation."
Yup,
- training and/or
- therapy
- possible termination of FOs
BUT, the rules (how much training, when etc., who does the psycho for this stuff report to) have been strictly laid out between the company and the workers council in contracts.
Following of the rules is strictly enforced by the workers council AND they have the legal means (working laws) to do so.
So do the individual persons, by law.
Iīve seen it happen several times.
FOs have been terminated during/after initial training and CPs-in-training have been demoted back to FOs for the rest of their career (in this company...), others were "good enough" after the extra measures.
Albeit NOT because of another DLR-test!
Training/check pilots have the last say in this, and they inform the workers council as soon as "problem candidates" emerge as such.
Trust (that ever important notion) exists between the workers council and the training department and is the foundation for this modus operandi.
The pilots in GF donīt have the right (by law) of a "fair trial", I would imagine.
So this form of arbitrary psychological "testing" does pose a major threat to their personal lives and is grossly unfair to these professionals.
The training department should be the first to be tested!!
Yup,
- training and/or
- therapy
- possible termination of FOs
BUT, the rules (how much training, when etc., who does the psycho for this stuff report to) have been strictly laid out between the company and the workers council in contracts.
Following of the rules is strictly enforced by the workers council AND they have the legal means (working laws) to do so.
So do the individual persons, by law.
Iīve seen it happen several times.
FOs have been terminated during/after initial training and CPs-in-training have been demoted back to FOs for the rest of their career (in this company...), others were "good enough" after the extra measures.
Albeit NOT because of another DLR-test!
Training/check pilots have the last say in this, and they inform the workers council as soon as "problem candidates" emerge as such.
Trust (that ever important notion) exists between the workers council and the training department and is the foundation for this modus operandi.
The pilots in GF donīt have the right (by law) of a "fair trial", I would imagine.
So this form of arbitrary psychological "testing" does pose a major threat to their personal lives and is grossly unfair to these professionals.
The training department should be the first to be tested!!
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There are plenty of psychologists who will admit that these tests are unreliable.
Think about it. What qualification does any psycho have to even imagine what sort of person should be driving the jet?
In reverse, do psychos think pilots are qualified to say who is a good psychologist.
It sounds like chalk and cheese to me.
We have a tried and tested system of country CAA approved check pilots whom you have to satisfy before you can take a seat in the professional cockpit. The system only breaks down when the chain of command allows the wrong people to be the trainers/checkers.
Don't allow psychologists to select pilots until pilots are allowed to select psychologists.
Think about it. What qualification does any psycho have to even imagine what sort of person should be driving the jet?
In reverse, do psychos think pilots are qualified to say who is a good psychologist.
It sounds like chalk and cheese to me.
We have a tried and tested system of country CAA approved check pilots whom you have to satisfy before you can take a seat in the professional cockpit. The system only breaks down when the chain of command allows the wrong people to be the trainers/checkers.
Don't allow psychologists to select pilots until pilots are allowed to select psychologists.
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What a nonsense!
AFAIK it is accepted knowledge that all pilot aptitude tests have some kind of unreliability, i.e. 10% of those accepted are not "the right stuff", while some are rejected that are.
I read an article about a study from the Journal of Aviation Psychology that came to the conclusion that there is no scientific proof at all that pilot aptitude tests work at all. (Maybe has something to do with psychologists not being the right people to determine what you need to be a good pilot.)
The real proof of the pudding is in the eating, training and line experience will show if a candidate is as good as the testing showed him to be.
Progress within the airline should be based on sim assessments, not further psycho-tests. This is just a new market for the DLR and a way for airlines to get rid of people. If GF only sends select people, this undermines any scientific founding this setup might have, as the selection of whom to send seems NOT to be based on science....
If this seems to be a trend rather than a bad idea by a single airline, we should fight it through our international professional representation ASAP.
This of course does not preclude medical (psychological) help in case of diagnosed mental disorders (psychotherapy). But those are diagnosed by shrinks, not chief pilots....
AFAIK it is accepted knowledge that all pilot aptitude tests have some kind of unreliability, i.e. 10% of those accepted are not "the right stuff", while some are rejected that are.
I read an article about a study from the Journal of Aviation Psychology that came to the conclusion that there is no scientific proof at all that pilot aptitude tests work at all. (Maybe has something to do with psychologists not being the right people to determine what you need to be a good pilot.)
The real proof of the pudding is in the eating, training and line experience will show if a candidate is as good as the testing showed him to be.
Progress within the airline should be based on sim assessments, not further psycho-tests. This is just a new market for the DLR and a way for airlines to get rid of people. If GF only sends select people, this undermines any scientific founding this setup might have, as the selection of whom to send seems NOT to be based on science....
If this seems to be a trend rather than a bad idea by a single airline, we should fight it through our international professional representation ASAP.
This of course does not preclude medical (psychological) help in case of diagnosed mental disorders (psychotherapy). But those are diagnosed by shrinks, not chief pilots....
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Those that are really interested in the subject might want to read: "PILOTS,PERSONALITY,AND PERFORMANCE: human behaviour and stress in the skies" ISBN 0-89930-577-6.
As a pilot you are obliged to accept a series of tests, as a consequence you are entitled the right to a class one medical.
It is clear that the psychological aspect of the pilot medical certificate is an area that can be easily abused.
If this is the case, then there is a serious safety problem in the making.
If pilots have to fear their management because of possible actions against them, and this via their medical then the local CAA needs to get involved.
If the CAA can not be relied upon either, then the CAA of third countries should ban that Airline to fly into their jurisdiction.
It is my understanding that there are reasons enough to keep a very close look at what is happening in the Gulf and not only at GF.
May I add that recently a couple of doctors have been convicted for serious crimes against their patients. Hence, nobody will convince me that there are no doctors around without personality disorders.
Doctors simply do not get screened the way pilots do, however, both professions share common areas of responsibility.
One can state that no risk may be taken when human lives are involved.
These kind of reasononigs are valid only,if one accepts at the sametime that nobody can prove he will never make a mistake.
I assume that DLR know what they are doing but at the same time I refer to an article in Flight International, in which was stated that Lufthansaa had to ground a considerable amount of their pilots if they narrowed their criteria.
When will common sense prevail?
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Smooth Trimmer
[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 02 July 2001).]
As a pilot you are obliged to accept a series of tests, as a consequence you are entitled the right to a class one medical.
It is clear that the psychological aspect of the pilot medical certificate is an area that can be easily abused.
If this is the case, then there is a serious safety problem in the making.
If pilots have to fear their management because of possible actions against them, and this via their medical then the local CAA needs to get involved.
If the CAA can not be relied upon either, then the CAA of third countries should ban that Airline to fly into their jurisdiction.
It is my understanding that there are reasons enough to keep a very close look at what is happening in the Gulf and not only at GF.
May I add that recently a couple of doctors have been convicted for serious crimes against their patients. Hence, nobody will convince me that there are no doctors around without personality disorders.
Doctors simply do not get screened the way pilots do, however, both professions share common areas of responsibility.
One can state that no risk may be taken when human lives are involved.
These kind of reasononigs are valid only,if one accepts at the sametime that nobody can prove he will never make a mistake.
I assume that DLR know what they are doing but at the same time I refer to an article in Flight International, in which was stated that Lufthansaa had to ground a considerable amount of their pilots if they narrowed their criteria.
When will common sense prevail?
------------------
Smooth Trimmer
[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 02 July 2001).]
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The scene is apparently demoralising for the colleagues of those who have lost their jobs or demoted,after all these years of succesful airline flying.
I beieve a A330 captain has been sacked after sim fail,dlr etc.
Another local I think captain on the A320 failed sim,did dlr,and got demoted.
Third one,a A320 capt; is on his last straw???
I beieve a A330 captain has been sacked after sim fail,dlr etc.
Another local I think captain on the A320 failed sim,did dlr,and got demoted.
Third one,a A320 capt; is on his last straw???