Backtracking?
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As an ATCO I can vouch for the fact that Pointer is a true gentleman
The fact that he bribed me many moons ago with Belgian chocolates on a cold dark London City night has nothing to do with it...........
VLM isn't the same without you Pointer, but then standards started slipping when they started hiring British pilots who do not understand the phrase "Expedite your Backtrack"
The fact that he bribed me many moons ago with Belgian chocolates on a cold dark London City night has nothing to do with it...........
VLM isn't the same without you Pointer, but then standards started slipping when they started hiring British pilots who do not understand the phrase "Expedite your Backtrack"
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I am all for safety, I am just puzzled why one group of pilots manages to backtrack at a certain safe speed (never seen an incident) and the other group can only manage a third of that speed safely.
Even stranger is 2 British Airways (at least they like to think they are) 146s backtracking in trail, one nips off down the runway to vacate, expediting as they confirmed they would before being given clearance on, the other crew (also confirmed before entering that they could expedite) crawl along behind, and when asked again to expedite answers "we are expediting!!!!"
Maybe it is my fault, and I should request their maximum backtrack speed before clearing them on.
Pointer you always managed good speed - where you being unsafe?
Even stranger is 2 British Airways (at least they like to think they are) 146s backtracking in trail, one nips off down the runway to vacate, expediting as they confirmed they would before being given clearance on, the other crew (also confirmed before entering that they could expedite) crawl along behind, and when asked again to expedite answers "we are expediting!!!!"
Maybe it is my fault, and I should request their maximum backtrack speed before clearing them on.
Pointer you always managed good speed - where you being unsafe?
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Hey Nonny Mouse...
So with all the Fathering you changed "completely"? Good to hear from you again
haha that was a long time ago
No was never Unsafe, and if i thought that i could not realy give an expedite.. was allways the gentelman to admit and thus held position..
Pointer
haha that was a long time ago
No was never Unsafe, and if i thought that i could not realy give an expedite.. was allways the gentelman to admit and thus held position..
Pointer
A Nonny Mouse, even as a pilot I am with you on this one. Yes, sometimes there are special occasions where you cannot "expedite" but you say so BEFORE accepting such a clearance/instruction.
I can understand sticking to a "normal" taxi speed on taxiways et. especially near hazards etc but, after all, we do actually take off on runways at speeds well in excess of taxi speeds!
The other one which makes my blood pressure rise a bit are those who line up (having received take off clearance) and then proceed to occupy the runway stationary for the next 30 seconds, presumably whilst they administer the last rights. Nothwithstanding "icing" conditions and the requirement for a static run, surely when one takes the runway one should be ready to depart without undue delay?
I can understand sticking to a "normal" taxi speed on taxiways et. especially near hazards etc but, after all, we do actually take off on runways at speeds well in excess of taxi speeds!
The other one which makes my blood pressure rise a bit are those who line up (having received take off clearance) and then proceed to occupy the runway stationary for the next 30 seconds, presumably whilst they administer the last rights. Nothwithstanding "icing" conditions and the requirement for a static run, surely when one takes the runway one should be ready to depart without undue delay?
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As one of the drivers of the 146`s in the pretend red white and blue, a couple of points. These are my own veiws and i`m sure others from my outfit will disagree.
first on landing on 10 at max weight, brakes now 600 degrees. we wizz round to back track, we are going pretty quick, (notice the spoilers still up ) only to be asked to expidite because the VLM behind has been doing warp factor 9 up behind us all down the approach and is now very close behind, ok fair enough min runway occupancy, we are trying our best with hot brakes so why then start asking us to expedite again because traffic is on short final! we can see it, we are looking straight at it! so we screech off the 90 turn with the paxs pressed against the cabin wall.
Second asked to backtrack for 28 or to the loop, with 30min turn arounds and hot brakes they may not cool all the way down before we go again so we have to be carefull about brake temp befour departure. a 70mph dash down the runway to turn around tends to heat them up a bit (twice the speed 4 times the energy) i`ve been going 50kts indicated and been asked to expedite how fast do you want us to go its like a rejected takeoff.
i`m all for min runway occupancy but sometimes we are doing our best, if we are light, had a long turn around we can and will wizz along at vlm speeds, but we are not a t-prop with disc / reverse and all we have to stop are those four lumps of carbon.
one more thing on lcy is "be ready for an immediate takeoff" can anyone do this? as i think we all have to do a standing start and wind the hairdryers up.
we all know about the high rate of movements at lcy, we do are best to accomadate. You may not of seen an incident but i`d rarther have a few go arounds than an aircraft in the drink pulling into the loop at 40 kts with a brake failure.
first on landing on 10 at max weight, brakes now 600 degrees. we wizz round to back track, we are going pretty quick, (notice the spoilers still up ) only to be asked to expidite because the VLM behind has been doing warp factor 9 up behind us all down the approach and is now very close behind, ok fair enough min runway occupancy, we are trying our best with hot brakes so why then start asking us to expedite again because traffic is on short final! we can see it, we are looking straight at it! so we screech off the 90 turn with the paxs pressed against the cabin wall.
Second asked to backtrack for 28 or to the loop, with 30min turn arounds and hot brakes they may not cool all the way down before we go again so we have to be carefull about brake temp befour departure. a 70mph dash down the runway to turn around tends to heat them up a bit (twice the speed 4 times the energy) i`ve been going 50kts indicated and been asked to expedite how fast do you want us to go its like a rejected takeoff.
i`m all for min runway occupancy but sometimes we are doing our best, if we are light, had a long turn around we can and will wizz along at vlm speeds, but we are not a t-prop with disc / reverse and all we have to stop are those four lumps of carbon.
one more thing on lcy is "be ready for an immediate takeoff" can anyone do this? as i think we all have to do a standing start and wind the hairdryers up.
we all know about the high rate of movements at lcy, we do are best to accomadate. You may not of seen an incident but i`d rarther have a few go arounds than an aircraft in the drink pulling into the loop at 40 kts with a brake failure.
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I didn't mean to offend anyone (least of all any BA pilots)
I appreciate that brake temps are a problem, once saw a Aer Fungus 146 whiz down the runway for one of my colleagues in the days before the loop. He overheated the brakes, and because there were 3 packed in on final, we had 3 go-arounds in quick succesion whilst he limped off the runway.
The only thing that still puzzles me is why one BA 146 can be fairly expeditious whilst another can't (both with fairly identical turn around times and performance on previous landing - and I would imagine both with similar payloads)
As for rolling imediately, my understanding was that analogue 146s can't, but RJs can (don't they have fadecs which spot spool up problems quickly?). More times than I can mention Swiss and Lufthansa RJs have taken it on the roll for me. I would never ask BA to, as I have been stung too many times.
Check the books, if asked "are you ready immediate" pilots should only accept if they can line up (or turn at the end) and roll without stopping. As I have said, I have been stung too many times by BA saying yes, then pausing for 45 seconds thought before going brakes off.
On that subject, when lined up on 10, and told to "be ready immediate when the backtracking a/c vacates", why does it take another 30 seconds to roll when cleared for "immediate takeoff" as the backtracking a/c finally clears the runway (we can't assume as the yanks do - we have to wait until the lander is completely clear before giving clearance). Is it not possible to start spooling up as you see the lander turn left, and be ready to roll 15 seconds later as he is clear?
I must reiterate though, I never hold it against anyone for turning down an offer of expedition for the sake of safety. I just get p*ssed off with those who accept, then dither
Pointer: What's in a name?
I see you're flying 737s, bet they aren't as much fun as the 50s (especially on a tight visual)
I appreciate that brake temps are a problem, once saw a Aer Fungus 146 whiz down the runway for one of my colleagues in the days before the loop. He overheated the brakes, and because there were 3 packed in on final, we had 3 go-arounds in quick succesion whilst he limped off the runway.
The only thing that still puzzles me is why one BA 146 can be fairly expeditious whilst another can't (both with fairly identical turn around times and performance on previous landing - and I would imagine both with similar payloads)
As for rolling imediately, my understanding was that analogue 146s can't, but RJs can (don't they have fadecs which spot spool up problems quickly?). More times than I can mention Swiss and Lufthansa RJs have taken it on the roll for me. I would never ask BA to, as I have been stung too many times.
Check the books, if asked "are you ready immediate" pilots should only accept if they can line up (or turn at the end) and roll without stopping. As I have said, I have been stung too many times by BA saying yes, then pausing for 45 seconds thought before going brakes off.
On that subject, when lined up on 10, and told to "be ready immediate when the backtracking a/c vacates", why does it take another 30 seconds to roll when cleared for "immediate takeoff" as the backtracking a/c finally clears the runway (we can't assume as the yanks do - we have to wait until the lander is completely clear before giving clearance). Is it not possible to start spooling up as you see the lander turn left, and be ready to roll 15 seconds later as he is clear?
I must reiterate though, I never hold it against anyone for turning down an offer of expedition for the sake of safety. I just get p*ssed off with those who accept, then dither
Pointer: What's in a name?
I see you're flying 737s, bet they aren't as much fun as the 50s (especially on a tight visual)
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perf on the rj100, we do a flap 30 or flap 33 departure at or near to RTOW as city is a cat C airport and we are always within 2 ton of RTOW (we use reduced thrust) we have to do standing start. takes about 15 secs for the fadecs to spool em up.
Brake temps on landing can differ alot dependant on payload, busy flight with a bit on tankered fuel will be 40ton an empty positioning flight will be around 28ton so quite a difference.
We also have big brother on our rj`s so every flight is monitored and we get a phone call for anything outside sop, eg taxi to fast, we can`t even release the brakes untill the flaps are set
so we are now sat waiting as they trundle out.
I love flying out out of HMS Lcy its the most fun since plymouth, the way the clearence come most times is "enter backtrack vacate at k hold at m" then you enter start to move followed by "expedite landing traffic 4 miles" by that point we are on the runway so no choice, engines up to 65% and screech off at the end.
Brake temps on landing can differ alot dependant on payload, busy flight with a bit on tankered fuel will be 40ton an empty positioning flight will be around 28ton so quite a difference.
We also have big brother on our rj`s so every flight is monitored and we get a phone call for anything outside sop, eg taxi to fast, we can`t even release the brakes untill the flaps are set
so we are now sat waiting as they trundle out.I love flying out out of HMS Lcy its the most fun since plymouth, the way the clearence come most times is "enter backtrack vacate at k hold at m" then you enter start to move followed by "expedite landing traffic 4 miles" by that point we are on the runway so no choice, engines up to 65% and screech off at the end.
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unwiseowl & dhc83driver,
The 'spy in the cab' doesn't record fast taxy speeds.
Taxying without the flaps set to atleast 18 degrees isn't a SESMA so long as the wheel speed is less than 7 knotts. If this was the case every time you were pulled forward by a tug you'd achieve another event.
The reason we use a standing start for all take-offs when within 2 tons of RTOW is to account for differences in piloting technique on performance critical take-offs. BACX in all its wisedom has come up with a blanket rule to cover for the lowest common denominator, therefore, all BACX RJs departing LCY have to perform standing starts. In reality, the performance allows for rolling starts at LCY.
The 'spy in the cab' doesn't record fast taxy speeds.
Taxying without the flaps set to atleast 18 degrees isn't a SESMA so long as the wheel speed is less than 7 knotts. If this was the case every time you were pulled forward by a tug you'd achieve another event.
The reason we use a standing start for all take-offs when within 2 tons of RTOW is to account for differences in piloting technique on performance critical take-offs. BACX in all its wisedom has come up with a blanket rule to cover for the lowest common denominator, therefore, all BACX RJs departing LCY have to perform standing starts. In reality, the performance allows for rolling starts at LCY.
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Ha ha this is fun, a bit of ranting about HMS Lcy, has been a few years now but still remember the good fun there.
Yes doing a thight Visual makes my co-pilot squirme in the -800 i fly nowadays.
It did give me the skill i posses these days, wish i could come and play some day...
Must go and set off to Canary's ... no not the wharf but the island...
Regards, Pointer
Former HMS Lcy Aviator
Yes doing a thight Visual makes my co-pilot squirme in the -800 i fly nowadays.
It did give me the skill i posses these days, wish i could come and play some day...
Must go and set off to Canary's ... no not the wharf but the island...
Regards, Pointer Former HMS Lcy Aviator
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As with pilots, all ATCOs are different, some good, some less good.
I personally would not give anyone runway entery clearance and then expect a speedy backtrack unless I had first enquired of the pilot whether he is willing to deliver.
As I said, it is better to establish the facts before the metal is on the runway.
Again, what there is no excuse for (but happens regularly) is the pilot giving the affirm and then dawdling.
It has to be said that the majority of the time both Pilots and ATCOs play the game at city - the 32+ movements per hour on a single frequency with bugger all concrete to park/taxi on is testament to this fact.
Also, where else could one observe such interesting landings in marginal weather (such as an Irish 146 hurtling down the runway on its nose gear, with the wings in the air waggling from side to side). You must all be mad
Well done all, keep it up
I personally would not give anyone runway entery clearance and then expect a speedy backtrack unless I had first enquired of the pilot whether he is willing to deliver.
As I said, it is better to establish the facts before the metal is on the runway.
Again, what there is no excuse for (but happens regularly) is the pilot giving the affirm and then dawdling.
It has to be said that the majority of the time both Pilots and ATCOs play the game at city - the 32+ movements per hour on a single frequency with bugger all concrete to park/taxi on is testament to this fact.
Also, where else could one observe such interesting landings in marginal weather (such as an Irish 146 hurtling down the runway on its nose gear, with the wings in the air waggling from side to side). You must all be mad
Well done all, keep it up
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Alan: As you know, if I really was any good at it, I would be with you big boyz at Thames
As I am sh*t, I will do my best to emulate TCs finest controlling, and try not to let the side down............
As I said, some are good, some not so good
As I am sh*t, I will do my best to emulate TCs finest controlling, and try not to let the side down............
As I said, some are good, some not so good