Are BA for real?

[52049er]

330 driver. What a load of nonsense you speak.

they passenger and crew were aware that a limb was broken or they were not

I broke my ankle once and only found out 18 hrs later, my wife broke her leg and that took 3 days to be diagnosed. Unless the bone is visibly disjointed they could never be sure. Do you think BA should turn a 300 pax, 300 ton a/c around for every person who twists their ankle nastily on board?

No? OK, perhaps in that case BA should seek the finest medical advice available. Oh, they did.

Hmmm. Maybe they should ask the passenger what they would like to do. Oh, they did.

So far some appalling decision making. OK, look what they did to really rile 330 - they also followed company rules as they approached destination to ensure their passenger had medical care on the ground. Tut tut tut.

I am sorry to hear about your relative, but that does not make fatty embolisms any less rare. A Greek airliner crashed last week - doesnt mean crashes are common though, does it?

[You Gimboid]

It might help A330 driver if you actually read the replies to your post and had the humility to acknowledge that you have no idea of BA SOPs, the consultations that took place via the excellent satphone link, the nature of the injury, what treatment was received on the flight nor any idea of the BA SOP to declare a PAN into LHR (LGW? not sure) in order to have paramedics meet the airplane. (They are not actually based at the airport, so an emergency must be declared to get them to come airside)

You have in front of you the explanations of the SOPs, a surgeons opinion no less, and yet you keep bleating on about how heartless and horrible the Capt was to continue with an injured pax on board just to save a few shekels for the company.

Grow up, bud!

[Jerricho]

had the humility to acknowledge that you have no idea of BA SOPs

Or the holds for Gatwick

[FatFlyer]

Maybe there should be a procedure for A/c to arrange to be met by an ambulance for a passenger who needs to go to hospital for an injury or illness but which is not a medical emergency without declaring a PAN?

[A330driver]

Getting medical assistance airside here in Heathrow or in Gatwick does not require a medical emergency being declared to ATC. That's what the company frequency is for.

Despite passing numerous enroute airfields the commander never deemed a situation to exist that warranted getting on the
ground early, except for when he reached his destination.

The only apparant upshot of declaring this emergency appears to be bypassing a holding stack.

[Del Prado]

There's still no such thing in the UK as a 'medical emergency' (or a 'fuel emergency').
If you want priority tis a PAN or MAYDAY you must declare.

Out of interest, anyone know what the delays were into Gatwick at the time?

[behind_the_second_midland]

330

With as much repsect as I can muster.

You are talking crap.

Last time I had a medical problem I was ordered by Director to declare a PAN so as to get an ambulance.

[cargo boy]

Hang on a minute. If the crew were able to talk with MedLink and they advised that there was no emergency and it was considered that they should carry on to destination which was at least another 6 or 7 hours away then there was no 'EMERGENCY'. If there was a deterioration in the patients condition as they approached LGW then that is a different matter.

Why wouldn't the crew wait another 10-20 minutes in the hold? It's not as though they couldn't have called Ops on the Sat Phone any time in the previous 6 or 7 hours to advise them that they would need an ambulance to meet the aircraft but there was no 'EMERGENCY'. Even a simple call to Ops on the VHF whilst approaching london and they could have had the ambulance ordered and waiting for them by the time they arrived on stand.

Nope, this one does sound as though an emergency was declared when there wasn't one in order to get an expeditious arrival. Just because btsm doesn't believe it doesn't matter. Unless the patient was indeed in serious danger of deteriorating with a life threatening condition, declaring an emergency just to make sure an ambulance would be waiting when they have had many hours to make a call to their ops using Sat Phone, HF or VHF (within range) is an abuse of the system.

[touchedrunway?]

As a slight aside from the underlying topic here. About two weeks ago, talking to London, approaching from the Akiki direction, a United States Airline (No Names) told ATC that they had a medical emergency on board. On further questioning from London it was disclosed that it was a pax with a blood clot, spreading!!! London asked did they want to declare an emergency. "No" was the answer, yet they still became priority traffic into London. As (non priority) traffic on the way inbound, we saw holding as no hardship at all, and would have offered too, if necessary. Surley, professional pilots with any airline, can see the urgency in a "medical emergency". If a fellow collegue decides that he or she deems they have a "medical emergency" on thier flight, and they don't declare a "PAN", then that's their choice. They have the facts to hand about their circumstances. The least we can do is allow them a jump on a 5 minute hold, right? No? Maybe I'm too soft......call me considerate?

[Infadel]

With all this wonderful state of the art medical diagnosis perhaps BA should think about pulling out of catering and aviation.
The NHS perhaps?

[Speedpig]

Even a simple call to Ops on the VHF whilst approaching london and they could have had the ambulance ordered and waiting for them by the time they arrived on stand.

And then we'd get out one of the dozen or so ambulances that we have on standby at the airport, along with 24 (or so) driver/technicians...... just like all the other carriers have.

There are two ways to get an ambulance onto the ramp at Gatwick. The first is to book it in advance through an insurance company... usually a minimum of 24 hours in advance, or you request Surrey Ambulance Service to attend... "Is it an emergency?" asks the nice controller. "No" say we, "we just thought it would be nice to get this chappie off with a suspected broken ankle, and he can't wait the 24 hours for the insurance company to arrange it, so if you wouldn't mind popping along......."

The only way to get an un-prearranged casualty off an airport is to request an emergency ambulance.... and the airline pays for it. The BA aircraft will request it through ops (who will make the call) and the crew will advise ATC that an emergency ambulance has been requested and they (ATC) may well decide to expedite the arrival if possible.

Why would A330 driver have a problem with that?

This is just BA bashing. Are you inferring that if Virgin had a similar scenario that ATC would not expedite their arrival also?

On a lighter note, I had the pleasure of speaking with a gentleman who's life had almost certainly been saved by an expeditious diversion into Shannon where he was hospitalised for a week.
This chap lived in Oxford and about a month after the event came down to Gatwick by coach to speak to someone. I listened with great interest to his story of how the crew had discussed his condition with Medlink and him and then on Medlink doctor's advice, had made the decision to divert to Shannon.
I was quite taken aback when I discovered the reason for his visit to Gatwick.........
it took a while to sink in when he said he had come to get compensation for the inconvenience of having to find his own way back to Oxford from Shannon once he had been released from hospital.
I agreed to go through some figures with him, and once we had assertained that by the time all connecting pax had been rebooked and replacement crew sent to Shannon (crew exceeded hours), the 4 hour delay to the next flight operated by that aircraft, the screwing up of rosters etc etc, the cost of the diversion would be in excess of £35000 that we would indeed compensate him once he had done the same for the airline.

[PAXboy]

A330: If you are taken ill on board a flight (I doubt that you will on BA but that's you're tough luck) then do, by all means, SHOUT as loud as you can that you want to go BACK to the originating field. Do not accept any cockamamie excuse - you stand up for your rights.

I expect that the Cpt will be only too pleased to offload you.

[apaddyinuk]

If this is the MCO-LGW incident that were talking about then as a crewmember based on this fleet I was under the impression it was a crew member that was injured (infact I trained with the lady in question and she was back flying pretty quickly after the incident) and she told the captain that she was able to continue.
We must remember here that this was not some BA policy the made the aircraft continue. Dozens of BA flights make emergency diversions for illness each year without the company questioning it. Its always the crews first priority to ensure that they are doing the right thing for the sick/injured person. Infact, usually it is Medlink, a company BA subscribe to who offer inflight medical advise to crew from their base in Phoenix ( or is it houston, i cant quite remember) and they usually advice whether a diversion is strongly advised or if the condition should be ok for the flight to continue. They will then take charge of arranging medical assistance to meet the aircraft should it divert or continue and that also includes advising the hospitals!

[martinidoc]

From CAP 413

Types of emergency

"b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance."

A330 Sorry about your friend's death due to fat embolism, however, as I previously said this syndrome is rare, and death from from all fractures (any cause) is rare (approx 1:2500). Fat embolus syndrome does not usually manifest itself for several days following fracture.

I can understand why this personal tradgic anectdote has coloured your views, but sadly I think you are mistaken.

Continuing the flight after consultation, and dcelaring a medical emergency pre-fixed with a Pan in the situation described seems to me to have been entirely appropriate, as specified in CAP 413.

[beernice]

L337 I've got a medical degree and an ATPL. Ignorant I'm not. Every company has its faults, the only danger is when its employees are too stupid to see them.

[Slim20]

In my opinion the company really does have poor SOP's.

Really? What, in your extensive experience, leads you to think that?

I've got a medical degree and an ATPL

Eminently qualified to comment then! What would you have done then, Dr beernice ATPL? (or should that be Capt beernice MD?)

[matkat]

Looks like a good call to Me.

[Flying Torquewrench]

It is a normal MEDLINK procedure that when you require a ambulance to meet the aircraft on arrival it will be arranged by MEDLINK. Offcourse only when you have been in touch with them to advice them of the medical problem you have on board the aircraft.

Yesterday we had a passenger who became ill during the flight so we contacted MEDLINK. Their advice was to continue to destination (major UK airport) and MEDLINK would arrange a ambulance to meet the aircraft. No need at all to declare a PAN or MAYDAY.

Can't comment on the BA story because we don't have enough information.

FT

[Hotel Mode]

From BA Flying crew orders : When medical assistance is required on arrival a medical emergency (PAN) should be declared.

Pretty clear i think.

[BEagle]

Not really. 'Should' is merely a strong recommendation in modern parlance. Mandatory action would require the Crew Orders to use the words 'shall' or 'must'.

However, it is extremely good to know about the way 'Medlink' works and that such medical advice is available 24/7.

Thanks to you all for your clarification.