Are BA for real?
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Are BA for real?
Am I missing something here?
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...IIO%208-05.pdf
A passenger suffers a broken limb. That constitutes serious injury. Yet they continue onwards for another seven hours across the Atlantic and then declare a medical emergency so they bypass the Mayfield stack.
Cynical queue jumping at it's best?
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resou...IIO%208-05.pdf
A passenger suffers a broken limb. That constitutes serious injury. Yet they continue onwards for another seven hours across the Atlantic and then declare a medical emergency so they bypass the Mayfield stack.
Cynical queue jumping at it's best?
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But easyprison, the medical "event" was not an emergency for 390 minutes, yet it "became" one when Mayfield (and 30 minutes in the stack) hove into view.
Unless it suddenly got worse (not mentioned in the report), why not divert into Shannon an hour before?
Unless it suddenly got worse (not mentioned in the report), why not divert into Shannon an hour before?
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That constitutes serious injury
A burn, laceration, compound fracture or even childbirth is considered serious but the persons life is not at risk, therefore there is no need to divert. Declaring a medical emergency later may have been due to the injureds condition worsening? Or declare a medical emergency to be met by a paramedic team on the tarmac?
An onboard medical kit contains almost everything to deal with all manner of injuries and medical problems. It is down to the crew and their medical support which make the decision along with the injured party and their companions.
Besides, ever hear of people breaking bones then 7 hours on a hospital trolley before being seen?
SO I suggest A330Driver, you go back to your own airline and request Aviation Medicine training to appreciate the situation before flaming other airlines. After all from relatives of those who have fallen ill onboard British Airways aircraft the crew cannot be praised enough for the way they deal with casualties. The crew are constantly tested on their medical abilities and knowledge also.
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Well, flying is strategic risk management. You decide to continue, but not to accept any more delay...
Also you don´t know, if the situation has escalated in the last hour (i´m not a doctor but maybe accute trombose risk developed).
Also you don´t know, if the situation has escalated in the last hour (i´m not a doctor but maybe accute trombose risk developed).
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The injured party would probably have been treated better in the air than hours waiting to be seen in A+E. The cabin staff would have immobilised the fracture and given adequate analgesia. In what sounds like a relatively simple ankle fracture , these are the mainstays of management. 
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It is also quite possible that after consultation the paax was content to continue on, and nearing the destination the pilot requested medical assitance on arrival, which then transpired ...
I don't know, and I'm guessing most of the posters here don't know ... these are but suggestions.
Jordan
I don't know, and I'm guessing most of the posters here don't know ... these are but suggestions.
Jordan
niknak
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The emergency was declared to ATC straight away, the crew then advised that, after consulting with the injured parties, the best course of action was to continue onward to the UK.
As the Oceanic track was almost a direct routing anyway it had little bearing on other traffic over the Atlantic.
ATC in the UK were aware of the problem well in advance, and in their usual professional manner, afforded the aircraft the most expeditious routing available, which is no more than I or any other ATCO would do, or be expected to do under the circumstances.
The captain made his decision in conjunction with those who were injured and after taking medical advice from those who are qualified, via BA Ops.
A very unpleasant experience for all involved, but as with everything at the sharp end of aviation, decisions are made utilising your training, experience and information available, all of happened in this instance.
I hope I never have to work or fly as passenger with A330driver in any capacity.
As the Oceanic track was almost a direct routing anyway it had little bearing on other traffic over the Atlantic.
ATC in the UK were aware of the problem well in advance, and in their usual professional manner, afforded the aircraft the most expeditious routing available, which is no more than I or any other ATCO would do, or be expected to do under the circumstances.
The captain made his decision in conjunction with those who were injured and after taking medical advice from those who are qualified, via BA Ops.
A very unpleasant experience for all involved, but as with everything at the sharp end of aviation, decisions are made utilising your training, experience and information available, all of happened in this instance.
I hope I never have to work or fly as passenger with A330driver in any capacity.
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In BA the only way to get any medical assistance to meet you at the aircraft is to declare a medical emergency. I suspect that had something to do with the emergency being declared close to London.
Carnage Matey, declaring a 'medical emergency' won't get you any special treatment from ATC in the UK. I suspect the crew called a PAN if they jumped the queue at the WILLO stack.
A330driver, I don't remember ever holding at Mayfield.
(good grief I'm in a pedantic mood tonight!
)
A330driver, I don't remember ever holding at Mayfield.
(good grief I'm in a pedantic mood tonight!
)
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As CM said, the only way to be met by an ambulance and or paramedics is to declare a medical emergency. This has less to do with queue jumping and more to do with procedure. When you declare a medical emergency ATC are bound by their procedures to ensure an expeditious approach. An ASR is always going to be filed and any abuse will be dealt with by the CAA. Still A330 Driver would know that if he had a little experience.
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Sixmilehighclub, I think you are very wrong and even dangerous. As someone that came to the airlines from a medical background I think that the BA's crews action was quite cynical. Bar few exceptions flight crew are not medically trained. Therefore with the exception of minor superficial injury flight crew are not in a position the make a call on what is a serious injury and what is not. And for your information a break can be life threatening, ever heard of a fatty embolus? Furthermore you or the flight crew did not know what other injuries if any, were sustained in the original incident. This is another examlpe of BA carring on across the Atlantic regardless. In my opinion the company really does have poor SOP's.
the lunatic fringe
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Flight crew are not in a position the make a call on what is a serious injury and what is not
Medlink and those Doctors are paid by BA to make medical decisions. 24/7.
Having made a decision it would then be constantly reviewed with the Doctors, via Sat Phone.
Almost certainly there would be someone on board with medical qualifications, and they tend to act as a go between. Medlink ask the question, you ask the doctor on board the question, you relay the answer.
beernice: This is another example of the ignorant condemning BA at every opportunity.
In simple terms, is a 'fatty embolus' something akin to bone marrow getting into the bloodstream?
Also, how did the passenger sustain the injury? Were there other lingering possibilities such as concussion to worry about? Whilst stumbling and breaking an ankle in the loo-queue following this severe turbulence (the maximum vertical accelerations experienced were +2.367g and -0.352g), did the passenger bang his/her head?
Presumably the flight crew were in contact with some duty doctor or other at Heathrow when they made their decision?
I note that 5 crew members also sustained minor injuries....
Hmmm........
Also, how did the passenger sustain the injury? Were there other lingering possibilities such as concussion to worry about? Whilst stumbling and breaking an ankle in the loo-queue following this severe turbulence (the maximum vertical accelerations experienced were +2.367g and -0.352g), did the passenger bang his/her head?
Presumably the flight crew were in contact with some duty doctor or other at Heathrow when they made their decision?
I note that 5 crew members also sustained minor injuries....
Hmmm........
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Minor injuries I would imagine includes small cuts and bruises, you're not going to suggest that requires a div, are you?
As for the broken ankle pax, is it not true that you can't fly for a number of days after a cast is fitted due to the possibilty of the limb swelling? I'd reckon the pax wanted to get home and if they were going to require hospital treatment they wanted that to be in a hospital at home, rather than being stuck in a canadian hospital for a few days.
Funny how people are so quick to criticise, especially BA, on this forum. The simple fact is, I haven't heard any reports of the pax or crew criticising the decision to continue, so why should anyone here criticise?
As for the broken ankle pax, is it not true that you can't fly for a number of days after a cast is fitted due to the possibilty of the limb swelling? I'd reckon the pax wanted to get home and if they were going to require hospital treatment they wanted that to be in a hospital at home, rather than being stuck in a canadian hospital for a few days.
Funny how people are so quick to criticise, especially BA, on this forum. The simple fact is, I haven't heard any reports of the pax or crew criticising the decision to continue, so why should anyone here criticise?
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If there is a medical problem we contact Medlink in Phoenix by HF via ops, Sat phone or acars.
We give all the symptoms and we are passed to a specialist in that field and how it relates to flying.
We are then advised by Medlink on the action to be taken.
By following their advice we are indemnified against any legal action from the passenger.
I'm not sure about LGW but at LHR to get paramedics to meet the aircraft you are obliged to declare an emergency.This has to be a PAN as the words "Medical Emergency" alone are no longer recognised, or so I'm told.
BA's FCO's dictate that "when medical assistance is required on arrival, a medical emergency (PAN) should be declared.
We give all the symptoms and we are passed to a specialist in that field and how it relates to flying.
We are then advised by Medlink on the action to be taken.
By following their advice we are indemnified against any legal action from the passenger.
I'm not sure about LGW but at LHR to get paramedics to meet the aircraft you are obliged to declare an emergency.This has to be a PAN as the words "Medical Emergency" alone are no longer recognised, or so I'm told.
BA's FCO's dictate that "when medical assistance is required on arrival, a medical emergency (PAN) should be declared.
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As a BA frequent flyer I have never been afraid of criticising BA.
However on this occassion I think A330 has been somewhat unfair.
As a surgeon, I should point out the the captain took this decision following professional medical advice, and in consultation with the passengers.
Had I or A330 been the poor individual with the fractured ankle 2+ hours out of Orlando, and faced with the choice of returning to blighty for safe and affordable NHS care (Emergency care in the UK is still as good as anywhere in the world, even if elective care leaves someting to be desired!), or returning to the USA being lumbered with a bill for 10s of thousands of dollars, and being treated away from family and friends, I know which I would choose!.
Pain relief with analgesia and immobilisation is entirely appropriate (and hopefully the odd brandy).
Fat embolus is a rare complication in which fat from the marrow is thought to embolise to the lungs and cause a serious inflammation of the lungs with fluid accumulation, and has a high mortality rate. It is extremely unlikey that the patient had any increased risk of developing this as a result of completing the 390 minutes of the planned flight against returning to the USA which presumably would have taken about half that time.
Again I really do not think that calling this a Pan was unreasonable, particularly as it appears that SOPs require this in order to obtain appropairate medical support at the arrival airfield, and in the circumstances I would do the same thing, to try and ensure that any pain and suffering was minimsed.
For once I would applaud the actions of the crew which seem to have been carefully considered, after appropriate advice and consultation, and without making an unecessary drama, in order to minimse the inconvenience to as many people as possible.
However on this occassion I think A330 has been somewhat unfair.
As a surgeon, I should point out the the captain took this decision following professional medical advice, and in consultation with the passengers.
Had I or A330 been the poor individual with the fractured ankle 2+ hours out of Orlando, and faced with the choice of returning to blighty for safe and affordable NHS care (Emergency care in the UK is still as good as anywhere in the world, even if elective care leaves someting to be desired!), or returning to the USA being lumbered with a bill for 10s of thousands of dollars, and being treated away from family and friends, I know which I would choose!.
Pain relief with analgesia and immobilisation is entirely appropriate (and hopefully the odd brandy).
Fat embolus is a rare complication in which fat from the marrow is thought to embolise to the lungs and cause a serious inflammation of the lungs with fluid accumulation, and has a high mortality rate. It is extremely unlikey that the patient had any increased risk of developing this as a result of completing the 390 minutes of the planned flight against returning to the USA which presumably would have taken about half that time.
Again I really do not think that calling this a Pan was unreasonable, particularly as it appears that SOPs require this in order to obtain appropairate medical support at the arrival airfield, and in the circumstances I would do the same thing, to try and ensure that any pain and suffering was minimsed.
For once I would applaud the actions of the crew which seem to have been carefully considered, after appropriate advice and consultation, and without making an unecessary drama, in order to minimse the inconvenience to as many people as possible.
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Either one of two things happened here - they passenger and crew were aware that a limb was broken or they were not. If they were, then I am absoloutely appaled that they would continue across the ocean with a passenger in that state.
Continuing onwards with a passenger in such a state cannot be in the interest of the passenger concerned - commercial considerations would appear to be the overriding issue here.
The second possiblity - that they were unaware of the extent of the injury would appear to be, and I hope, the case, but given that a number of crew members were also injured, prudence would dictate that a passenger with a serious injury be attend to ASAP as opposed to continuing across the ocean where compications might set in, and the aircraft be a long way from any help for the passenger. I
What I find cynical is that having continued onwards without any "emergency" for several hours, passing numerous suitable airfields, that when they arrive at their destination, they then declare a medical emergency - "the aircraft was given an expeditious routing".
I'm not slating BA, I'm questioning that commander's priorities. From reading the report, the welfare of the passenger really only seemed to matter in the Gatwick zone.
martinidoc,
Some attitude for a so called doc. Any expense that the passenger would incur in treatment in the US would have to borne by BA - not the individual. And don't tell me a fat embolus is not rare - I attended a funeral a week ago where a relative of mine died from a broken leg received in a car accident.
Continuing onwards with a passenger in such a state cannot be in the interest of the passenger concerned - commercial considerations would appear to be the overriding issue here.
The second possiblity - that they were unaware of the extent of the injury would appear to be, and I hope, the case, but given that a number of crew members were also injured, prudence would dictate that a passenger with a serious injury be attend to ASAP as opposed to continuing across the ocean where compications might set in, and the aircraft be a long way from any help for the passenger. I
What I find cynical is that having continued onwards without any "emergency" for several hours, passing numerous suitable airfields, that when they arrive at their destination, they then declare a medical emergency - "the aircraft was given an expeditious routing".
I'm not slating BA, I'm questioning that commander's priorities. From reading the report, the welfare of the passenger really only seemed to matter in the Gatwick zone.
martinidoc,
Some attitude for a so called doc. Any expense that the passenger would incur in treatment in the US would have to borne by BA - not the individual. And don't tell me a fat embolus is not rare - I attended a funeral a week ago where a relative of mine died from a broken leg received in a car accident.
Paxing All Over The World
Passenger speaking (not on that flight)
A330
How so? Do you have details of the insurance arrangements for this patient and that of BA?
Ah, understood that this will set your point of view and understandable, of course. But you were not on the a/c. You did not hear the medical advice. You did not speak to the patient.
A330
Any expense that the passenger would incur in treatment in the US would have to borne by BA - not the individual.
I attended a funeral a week ago where a relative of mine died from a broken leg received in a car accident.
A330driver
That's exactly the sort of quote that so upsets the rest of us here. Just read what martinidoc has written. Intelligent and concise. You may disagree but insulting comments do not make an argument...........
Some attitude for a so called doc