Near Collision at BOS between Aer Lingus and US Air

[Danny]

***WARNING***

Just to save a few of the posters on this thread from what apparently could lead to a coronary ailment, it was I who deleted some of the more petty posts. It obviously doesn't take a lot for some of you to feel aggrieved by the mere mention of an incident and then having someone who is obviously unable to hold back the emotional stress of having his or her countrymen maligned compare their own nationals method of controlling aircraft.

It is shameful the way some of you so called 'professionals' can descend into petty, xenophobic rants. This thread was starting to look like a catfight between Idunno, West Coast and a 'tag-along' bunch of spotter 'experts' on 'ATC for Dummies'. For heavens sake, just try counting to 10 before typing in your replies if something has 'offended' your sensibilities. Losing the plot and replying with infantile comparisons and slurs isn't going to win any arguments.

There are a lot of sensible replies on here which show the maturity, professionalism and experience of the posters. ATC is different at every single airport I fly into. Some are better than others but there's no way I'd spit my dummy out and paint every controller and their system with one broad brush. This US vs UK or Euro willy waving by a few posters on here is embarrassing and extremely petty and childish. Obviously some of you have never tried to get into some Greek, Turkish, Spanish, African airports when there are more than a few a/c arriving at the same time and there is CB activity, low vis and terrain to deal with. Euro bucket and spade brigade pilots have a lot to deal with too without some of the horror stories the main antagonists in this thread are trying to use to trash the others ATC system and controllers.

Debate the pros and cons of the BOS system by all means. Use comparisons with other airports, anywhere in the world. Just remember that if you are going to soil your pants with insults and petty xenophobic rants then you will be wasting your time as I will just delete the posts that serve only to inflame and provide nothing to the debate.

[Sunfish]

Why don't the controllers at that airport go back one hundred years to rasilway practice? Simply cut out a large wooden Tee shape. And pass it to each other. To clear someone for takeoff you have to be holding the Tee.

[RRAAMJET]

That would be the " Boston Tee Party " then, I presume....?

[Idunno]

RRAAMJET, of course you are right about Milan! But many Italian airports are 3rd world standard and you expect trouble.

But on the other hand - I've never heard an Italian controller losing his head and abusing pilots on the airwaves like you do every day in the US. On the whole the Italians are pretty cool headed compared to the Yanks, and thats really saying something - they're Mediterraneans after all.

I agree with everything else you said. Infrastructurally US airports are pretty 3rd world too. You just tend to expect better from the richest, most powerful, most technologically advanced ENGLISH SPEAKING nation on earth.

Its dissapointing.

[eastern wiseguy]

Well done to the US airways guys...without KNOWING what really happened it seems like they saved the day.

The SYSTEM at KBOS seems to have failed.Systems should fail SAFE. At KBOS the chain leading to disaster was broken only(it appears) by the quick thinking of the 737 crew.That is not how an Air Traffic Control System should work.I suspect that the managers ,especially those who signed the "modus operandum" at KBOS off will have a lot of thinking and reflecting to do ...and it is THEY who should ultimately carry the can.

Thoughts are with both crews.....and the guys in the tower...no one EVER does that on purpose.

[pprecious]

Did both flight crews continue their respective journeys? and if so I wonder how long it took for all their heart rates and concentration to get back to normal?

Well done to the US F/O, looks like fast thinking and actions saved the day...

[West Coast]

Dunno

Curious isn't it how you can come up with scenarios just when you need them for this thread.

I have a half dozen space shuttle landings myself. Problem is no one believes me.

I'll ask again. If you think it to be so bad, why do you imperil your passengers to something you believe to be dangerous? From the amount of things that seem to surround you in US airspace, traffic everywhere, third world airports, ATC out to get you, why don't you make a stand, sack up and say its too damn dangerous to go?
Do you have a greater responsibility as a pilot than to your passengers? I hope your obligation to your company doesn't override your obligation to those who pay the bills.

[Human Factor]

If you think it to be so bad, why do you imperil your passengers to something you believe to be dangerous?

If I don't, someone else will have to. Until regulatory authorities around the world insist upon changes (which we know they won't), nothing will change and we'll still be having this debate in a decade.

[AMF]

Sorry Danny, that some of us responded to IDunno's broad-brushstroke, extrapolated Yank-bashing drawn from one incident. Since you've removed my post, and I'm neither "IDunno" or "West Coast", I can only assume you consider me to be one of the "tag-along spotter experts" you've referred to.

(25+ years of pilot operations in the U.S., Europe, Africa, and Middle East notwithstanding...10 years based outside the U.S).

I see, however, that IDunno's rants still grace the thread, non-deleted. In just his latest post (which also remains), he's stated that U.S. controllers "lose their head", that they "abuse pilots every day", and that "infastructurally U.S. airports are 3rd world". And let's not forget his emboldened inference that they can't speak English.

And this coming from someone who's experience with U.S. airports is obviously limited to a very few and only occasionally, and I surmise his experience in general as well, given his obvious consternation at the whole thing. Yet he is supposedly so "expert" and "non-xenophobic" and posts "offer something for debate" that his they remain?

Most humorous, was his wailing (or rather, whining) assertion that this was a "Yank-dominated thread", because his initial Yank-bashing rants illicited responses.

Sorry Danny, but when someone like IDunno is asserting with psuedo-authority to whoever in the public is choosing to read this thread that the entire U.S. ATC system is DANGEROUS, UNSAFE, AND ASKING HIM TO DO THINGS HIS AIRCRAFT CAN'T DO, then he'll be called on his B.S. THE STATISTICAL FACTS REGARDOMG AIRCRAFT MOVEMENTS AND ATC-GENERATED ACCIDENTS DO NOT BEAR IDUNNO'S ASSERTIONS OUT.

Yet, his posts containing these imaginary, derogatory, and scare-mongering statements....remain. They remain for the traveling public to read.

Danny, when you delete posts for what you see as perpetuating conflict, why don't you delete the source that generates the whole affair, especially when it's nothing more than a thinly-veiled, pro-nationalistic attempt to scare the public?

[egbt]

IMF

Tempted to agree with you [re deleting the source] but if he gets zapped then he simply reregisters under a different name (or names) and probably becomes an even bigger pain.

perhaps we all should issue more toll alerts and just ignore the rants - from both sides



edited to qualify agreement

[Farrell]

Ummmmm....have any of you even bothered to read what Danny wrote?

[SaturnV]

pprecious, both flights continued to their destinations. The NTSB report indicates that the flight data recorders were removed from both planes (presumably this was done at the destination airport, or soon thereafter).

That the FDRs were removed at all, given this was a near-collision on a runway, probably reflects just how close the two planes came to colliding. From the FDRs and the ground radar trace, the NTSB should be able to reconstruct how far apart, in space and time, the two planes were when they crossed the runway intersection.

[ZQA297/30]

Oh my, thank God for old-fashioned mk.1 aviators in the cockpit. This will postpone pilot-less cockpits by years.
Well done guys.

[jewitts]

Speaking as a passenger who frequents pprune occasionally, this thread scares me witless. Having flown into BOS on the 10th June (the next day) and being blissfully unaware of this near disaster, I actually made a comment to my wife how dangerous it seemed, that flights were landing almost simultaneously on similar tracks and that take-offs were ocurring from crossed runways. This purely from observing out of the window of the AA Eagle flight I was on after flying to JFK from Europe. I must say that I only ever have seen this happening in the US e.g. JFK, LAX and BOS but I always assumed there was some foolproof (Advanced) system to prevent collisions. Apparently not, and to hear that 2 controllers were communicating on different frequencies and apparently not to each other is to say the least, asking for a disater to happen.

In my view the whole of the American air travel industry is in deep crisis. It's not just the airlines who are close to "bankrupt". Some of these previous (Bashing) comments obviously have some truth behind them. US ATC is sometimes stretched beyond breaking point. I guess an accident will happen sooner or later, once again scaring the unusually timid American passengers away from flying. From the passenger angle, I can tell you that the rest of the entire sytem is the same, stretched beyond the limit. From the surly check-in staff (all US airlines) who seem badly trained (and badly paid?); to the baggage handling systems which are poorly designed and poorly maintained; to the terminal buildings that are filthy dirty and totally inadequate, to airport infrastructures and designs that quite honestly baffle me, to the passenger information systems which are totally useless; to the aircraft which are mostly past their use-by date, to the "iffy" service given by the flight attendants, to the security personnel that haven't a clue about human dignity. (Don't start me on that!) If it were an equal choice, I would stop travelling to the US altogether.

[KATLPAX]

Jewitts, your second paragraph is such a waste. Whats the point other than to inflame? Generalizations with no fact behind. This is the kind of post that will lead to nothing more than us vs. them, "when i fly into xyz, blah blah blah...something Danny had to "scold" the professionals on the forum for. We as pax should be even more aware of our contributions, facts and tone.

[SASless]

FAA Management Cover-Up of ATC Errors esxposed

Lets throw some fuel on the fire about the BOS near miss....

Avnews this morning had several articles about ATC errors and near misses and the lack of FAA response to them until a Whistle Blower sounded the alarm.

The link is:

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#190038



U.S. OFFICE OF SPECIAL COUNSEL TRANSMITS REPORT OF COVER-UP OF OPERATIONAL ERRORS BY FAA PERSONNEL AT DALLAS FORT WORTH AIRPORT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 6/23/05
CONTACT: CATHY DEEDS, 202-254-3607, [email protected]

WASHINGTON—The U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC) today transmitted a report to the President and Congress detailing findings and recommendations regarding allegations of a substantial and specific danger to public safety. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is charged with moving America safely, but a Department of Transportation report confirms that air traffic personnel systematically covered up operational errors at Dallas Fort Worth International Airport (DFW) for seven years, thereby jeopardizing air traffic safety.

The whistleblower, Anne R. Whiteman, an 18-year air traffic controller at DFW, alleged that air traffic controllers and management at the DFW Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) routinely covered up serious operational errors and deviations involving aircraft. She disclosed to OSC that many incidents involving aircraft flying too close to each other, on average once a month, were often neither reported nor investigated, in violation of FAA’s Air Traffic Quality Assurance Order. This was a substantial and specific danger to public safety. Ms. Whiteman also described two specific incidents which should have been reported and provided data reflecting operational errors.

The Department of Transportation Office of Inspector General (DOT OIG) investigated and substantiated Ms. Whiteman’s allegations. Their March 2005 report revealed an improper management practice in place for seven years that was responsible for underreporting and the failure to investigate operational errors. The DOT OIG concluded that the cover-ups, whether due to management policy or whether they occur on an incidental basis, represent safety deficiencies and undermine the public’s confidence in the air traffic control system.

Under FAA policy, employees are supposed to report potential errors to the supervisor or controller-in-charge for investigation. The OIG found, however, that the language of the Quality Assurance Order was ambiguous on the requirement about use of playback equipment used to investigate suspected operational errors.

Under DFW TRACON policy, investigation of suspected operational errors was limited to asking the controller involved whether separation had been lost. Under this honor system, if the controller responded in the negative, no further investigation was done. Only if the controller acknowledged a loss, or possible loss of separation, were the playback tools used to review the incident and determine whether an operational error occurred. This local policy ran counter to FAA national policy and resulted in significant underreporting of operational errors.

A number of corrective actions were taken as a result of DOT’s investigation. DFW’s Air Traffic Manager issued a memorandum directing the immediate use of playback tools to investigate all suspected operational errors to correct DFW’s improper practice, and bring the facility in compliance with FAA national policy. DFW has been placed in a “no notice review” status for two years. FAA reassigned the facility quality assurance manager and selected a replacement. The facility manager, operations managers and supervisors were placed on Opportunity to Demonstrate Performance (ODP) status for failing to abide by FAA national policy on operational errors. Individual controllers were given training and placed on ODPs for failing to self-report errors, and one controller was decertified for committing a previously unreported operational error.

The Special Counsel determined that the agency’s report contains all the information required by statute and the agency’s findings appear to be reasonable.

Special Counsel Scott J. Bloch said, “It may be hard for the public to appreciate how difficult it is for whistleblowers to report wrongdoing in the government. Ms. Whiteman should be commended for bringing to light these serious operational errors that threaten our very air safety and security. Indeed, the system that protects our air service depends on the reporting of operational errors. There may have been incentives at FAA to underreport these errors, and now as a result of this disclosure, we hope those incentives have been or will be eliminated nationwide.”



OSC Analysis of DOT OIG Report

OSC Transmittal Letter to the President

[jewitts]

OK I take back the second paragraph. Sorry for wasting time and diverting attention! Clearly the safety implications are more important than an "us & them" discussion.

[AMF]

Well, for a supposedly "dangerous and outdated" ATC system...supposedly inferior to even the Italians'....it certainly moves a lot of aircraft without mating any two. More aircraft then the rest of the world combined I might add, and in routine severe weather conditions that would bring other, meteorlogically placid places to a screeching halt when the first echo appears or the airway might become mildly congested. This is not supposition, I watch it happen. The Eurocontrol system is designed to keep people on the ground.

The U.S. ATC system is based on a structure designed for flexibility, especially from the Rocky Mountains eastward because the frequency of convective weather patterns necessitate it if any amount of aircraft are going to fly. The TRACONS deal with the same issues and concentrated traffic, with less airspace. NY TRACON not only deals with EWR, JFK, and LGA, but also HPN, TEB, and sits in the middle of the Northeast Corridor. On a good day, it's busier than anywhere else on earth. On a bad weather day, perhaps with lines of CBs bearing down from the West as they do every few days or so for half the year, they adjust, because everyone from Wash DC to BOS is having to do the same.

For those supposed "experts" on the other side of the pond who think you could impose the UK/Eurocontrol system in that environment and have it work, then you've obviously never sat in an ATC facility and watched your own, let alone any in the U.S.

But when it does breach it's own criteria for safety and loss of seperation as in the BOS incident, through self-reporting, whistleblowing, and constant review by the FAA, NTSB, and OIG, the U.S. ATC system airs it's dirty laundry...even to the public.. and tries to self-correct. Non-reporting in other countries' systems does NOT equate to being "Safer" or that events don't occur.

Having flown extensively in the UK ATC system, please don't try and tell me that the ATC mistakes I've experienced never happened. They have, and I expect they will again. I just don't indict the entire system for a lapse in human performance when otherwise it works for the UKs/Europe's semi-busy, but placid environment.

[RRAAMJET]

Jewitt, don't be so hard on yourself even though you were only slightly off topic. Greater fouls have been committed in the past.

There is more than a shred of truth about your observations, and I worry how the US industry is ever going to crawl out its funk. Money that should have been earmarked for aviation improvements has been spent elsewhere over successive Administrations, notably the Aviation Improvement Fund dating back many years. The FAA generally do a commendable job despite this.

Indeed, much of the infrastructure and equipment is elderly and crumbling, (myself included!). All the junior personnel have been furloughed; there are precious few orders for new aircraft and the US pax fleet is ageing, with only a couple of airline exceptions adding up to perhaps 20% of the fleet. Taxi down the taxiways at Newark, LGA, JFK, DFW, LAX, DET and try avoiding all the potholes, metal planking, inop. blue lights, etc.

It can't go on, but "W" would rather continue spending on his Holy Wars than look to looming domestic issues.

[Spitoon]

It's rather sad to see how this thread is progressing.

I speak as a mere controller. I've only worked in the UK. But every airport is different. They each have problems / challenges for controllers just as they do for pilots - I have no doubt this ois the case the world over. Some airports are busier than others. Some have more passengers than others. Some have more parking stands than others. So what?

The pilot of an aeroplane doesn't care about the x thousand other flights that go through the airport each year. The passengers don't care about the millions of pax that are handled. They only care about the one flight they're on. And their main care is that it's safe.

So it doesn't matter which airport we're talking about or which side of the Atlantic (or Pacific or whatever) it is. It doesn't matter what size or type of aircraft it is. The procedures that are applied by ATC (or in other examples, by the pilots) are what matters.

On the basis of what is currently known about this incident, there appears to be a hazard that would be obvious to anyone doing a hazard analysis on the procedures. How the hazard is managed properly is what is important - and who it is or where it is is more or less irrelevant.

What we should be concentrating on is how to stop it happening again - ever.

For everyone's sake.