Korean Air Pay Cuts Looming
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Korean Air Pay Cuts Looming
All foreign pilots with Korean Air were informed over the airline's "CREWLINK" system that with effect from January 1st 2002, all foreign captains will have to take a 10% pay cut and that this would last for 12 months! Also, no more credit for deadheading will be given to foreign captains.
This is not acceptable as the foreign captains haven't been given an opportunity to discuss these drastic measures with senior management, and none of the contractors have been notified of these cuts.
This is so typical of Korean Air's management, and they should all be terminated as they are all merely "puppets on a string", "yes men" and window dressing to the outside world, which include the assistant chief pilots . Strange that the majority of assistant chief pilots are all Canadians?
The assistant chief pilots do absolutly nothing for their crews as none of them "wish to rock the boat"! The B744 assistant chief pilot has even issued orders to his crews not to submit captain's reports!
Recently a new VP Training was appointed, and his assistant is a former BA B744 captain, new to Korean Air and doesn't even hold a Korean instructor or checker position. Why this guy, probably because he's just another puppet!
Another department, QA (Quality Assurance) is being run by an inexperienced, fairly young Korean VP, who's command of the English language is less than satisfactory, and under him are a team of foreign and Korean pilots who like the assistant chief pilots, are totally useless. The pilot in charge is an Aussie and guess what, his "buddies" are slowly but surely being drafted in to his department.
There are approximately 275 foreign captains in Korean Air, and a mere 650 Korean captains, so management take note, the foreign captains will not stand still this time!
Is this a threat, no, just a statement of fact.
[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
This is not acceptable as the foreign captains haven't been given an opportunity to discuss these drastic measures with senior management, and none of the contractors have been notified of these cuts.
This is so typical of Korean Air's management, and they should all be terminated as they are all merely "puppets on a string", "yes men" and window dressing to the outside world, which include the assistant chief pilots . Strange that the majority of assistant chief pilots are all Canadians?
The assistant chief pilots do absolutly nothing for their crews as none of them "wish to rock the boat"! The B744 assistant chief pilot has even issued orders to his crews not to submit captain's reports!
Recently a new VP Training was appointed, and his assistant is a former BA B744 captain, new to Korean Air and doesn't even hold a Korean instructor or checker position. Why this guy, probably because he's just another puppet!
Another department, QA (Quality Assurance) is being run by an inexperienced, fairly young Korean VP, who's command of the English language is less than satisfactory, and under him are a team of foreign and Korean pilots who like the assistant chief pilots, are totally useless. The pilot in charge is an Aussie and guess what, his "buddies" are slowly but surely being drafted in to his department.
There are approximately 275 foreign captains in Korean Air, and a mere 650 Korean captains, so management take note, the foreign captains will not stand still this time!
Is this a threat, no, just a statement of fact.
[ 11 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
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I recently had the pleasure of flying Korean Airlines form JFK to Seoul then on to Bangkok. It was a great flight and great value for money. I will definitely fly Korean again and bypass Singapore Airlines, which I think is totally overated.
Keep up the good work Korean and hope all the negative publicity gets left behind. I also really like Incheon International Airport in Seoul. The whole experience was unforgettable.
Thanks Korean.
I posted this earlier!
When I read threads like this it makes me sick. If you guys don't like Korean then leave and go somewhere else. Go to Singapore Airlines or better yet go fly for Ryan Air!
Keep up the good work Korean and hope all the negative publicity gets left behind. I also really like Incheon International Airport in Seoul. The whole experience was unforgettable.
Thanks Korean.
I posted this earlier!
When I read threads like this it makes me sick. If you guys don't like Korean then leave and go somewhere else. Go to Singapore Airlines or better yet go fly for Ryan Air!
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Not all that unusual to find that the expat guys are notched down a step...if they don't like it they can always....ah, leave.
As in "bye-bye"
Of course this can backfire on the company as well....SV tried this in 1986 and found that they could not crew all of their flights, and had to put the pay back up.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
As in "bye-bye"
Of course this can backfire on the company as well....SV tried this in 1986 and found that they could not crew all of their flights, and had to put the pay back up.
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]
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Allianceair - from other threads it would seem that you are very upset by the fact that SIA would not give you air-miles on a heavily discounted ticket whereas KAL did?
Many other airlines don't give air miles for their discounted tickets, any more than many hotels, hire-car companies, etc. will give you airmiles/flybuys/etc. if you are seeking a discount. Did you know that?
I have many good friends working with KAL as pilots, so, perhaps for their and my benefit you could explain why, when making a legitimate complaint about a blatant abuse of their contract, you would suggest that they should chuck their hand in and go work elsewhere? They are, after all, on a legal and binding contract, are they not?
Regarding the SIA uniform, for those periods of flight where an evacuation is possible, since the Taipei accident, they now wear sensible footware to cope with an evacuation.
411a - nice edit!
Many other airlines don't give air miles for their discounted tickets, any more than many hotels, hire-car companies, etc. will give you airmiles/flybuys/etc. if you are seeking a discount. Did you know that?
I have many good friends working with KAL as pilots, so, perhaps for their and my benefit you could explain why, when making a legitimate complaint about a blatant abuse of their contract, you would suggest that they should chuck their hand in and go work elsewhere? They are, after all, on a legal and binding contract, are they not?
Regarding the SIA uniform, for those periods of flight where an evacuation is possible, since the Taipei accident, they now wear sensible footware to cope with an evacuation.
411a - nice edit!
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Khan
Yes not getting the Air Miles was upsetting,
but Singapore did not live up to my expectations about great inflight service. I have used them three times. I sensed arrogance all around. :o
I went to KAL with low expectations and I was pleasantly suprised.
As far as expats working for Korean and being made puppets, that is a risk of working in other countries.
I have dealt with expats in other industries. I have noticed they live like kings with all amenities in third world countries
, while the local qualified managers who probably know more than the expats live like paupers.
If the expats at Korean do not like the conditions of the contract then they can pack up and leave and let Korean face the consequences.
Anyways what gives the right for Korean Management to mess around with the contract of expats? Aren't there laws against this?
Yes not getting the Air Miles was upsetting,
but Singapore did not live up to my expectations about great inflight service. I have used them three times. I sensed arrogance all around. :o I went to KAL with low expectations and I was pleasantly suprised.
As far as expats working for Korean and being made puppets, that is a risk of working in other countries.
I have dealt with expats in other industries. I have noticed they live like kings with all amenities in third world countries
, while the local qualified managers who probably know more than the expats live like paupers. If the expats at Korean do not like the conditions of the contract then they can pack up and leave and let Korean face the consequences.
Anyways what gives the right for Korean Management to mess around with the contract of expats? Aren't there laws against this?
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Kimchikal ....
I'm as unhappy about the 10% haircut as you are, but your remarks about the role of the assistant chief pilots are way out of line.
I know 3 of these guys quite well, and from that knowledge I do know that they were given little if no warning that this decision had been made. And, despite the lack of requested input from management, I also know that they were active in trying to build a case for other crewing efficiencies as remedy to prevent a paycut for the expat captains. That they were ignored by the Korean's was neither surprising nor due to any lack of effort on their part.
You owe them an apology. If you have any grace at all you'll do it here on this thread.
And while I'm at it, the inference that some of them being Canadian is somehow linked to any of this is an insult I take personally.
For the record only 2 of the assistant chief pilots are Canadian. Two others are American and one is Australian. I'm not sure if the B737-800 has an ACP but I'm sure that there are no Canucks on that fleet.
In any event your slur against Canadians is totally unacceptable. I suggest you either retract it or name the time at which we can meet on the 8th floor at OC and have a little warm discussion on the nature of your personal national biases.
Is any of the above anything less than perfectly clear?
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: ELAC ]
I'm as unhappy about the 10% haircut as you are, but your remarks about the role of the assistant chief pilots are way out of line.
I know 3 of these guys quite well, and from that knowledge I do know that they were given little if no warning that this decision had been made. And, despite the lack of requested input from management, I also know that they were active in trying to build a case for other crewing efficiencies as remedy to prevent a paycut for the expat captains. That they were ignored by the Korean's was neither surprising nor due to any lack of effort on their part.
You owe them an apology. If you have any grace at all you'll do it here on this thread.
And while I'm at it, the inference that some of them being Canadian is somehow linked to any of this is an insult I take personally.
For the record only 2 of the assistant chief pilots are Canadian. Two others are American and one is Australian. I'm not sure if the B737-800 has an ACP but I'm sure that there are no Canucks on that fleet.
In any event your slur against Canadians is totally unacceptable. I suggest you either retract it or name the time at which we can meet on the 8th floor at OC and have a little warm discussion on the nature of your personal national biases.
Is any of the above anything less than perfectly clear?
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: ELAC ]
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ELAC
I totally disagree with your comments.
kimchikal is right and many foreign pilots within KE support his feelings.
The ACP's have done nothing to help their crews and their standard response to any query or question is: "I'll look into that", so perhaps all the ACP.s should be called: Captain Mirror's.
I totally disagree with your comments.
kimchikal is right and many foreign pilots within KE support his feelings.
The ACP's have done nothing to help their crews and their standard response to any query or question is: "I'll look into that", so perhaps all the ACP.s should be called: Captain Mirror's.
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Not with KAL (Yet) but been in the same boat as ex-pat with 2 other airlines.
If they are enforcing a paycut, they should at least negotiate, or give advance notice or sweeten the deal: (Sorry guys, we need to cut cost and have no choice, but if you hang in there and stay loyal, we will make it up to you once we return to profitability.)
Any of you KAL guys ex- Evergreen from late 80s, early 90s, B-747?
If so, my e-mail: [email protected]
If they are enforcing a paycut, they should at least negotiate, or give advance notice or sweeten the deal: (Sorry guys, we need to cut cost and have no choice, but if you hang in there and stay loyal, we will make it up to you once we return to profitability.)
Any of you KAL guys ex- Evergreen from late 80s, early 90s, B-747?
If so, my e-mail: [email protected]
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KimchiKal and followers...
Please, please, please. Some of us earn our living by trying to be part of the solution to our employers needs (occasionally flawed though those employers might sometimes be..like all airlines). If you aren't part of our side of the fence then you must be, by definition, part of the problem.
And lecturing someone on English by using the word "who's" instead of the correct "whose" does little for your credibility. There are plenty of on-line guides to the correct use of the Queen's English and I suggest that since you are cyber-literate enough to author venomous posts you could usefully let your fingers do the walking to a little electronic education. Look up www.how tobeamoresensitivexpat.com while you're at it.
There's probably not another airline in the world that has more aggressively approached the task of re-inventing itself over the last 5 years. It would have achieved more if not for the dead-weight of hateful attitudes such as yours. Please lighten up the load on us all and go someplace else!
Sherm
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Sherm Boy ]
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Sherm Boy ]
Please, please, please. Some of us earn our living by trying to be part of the solution to our employers needs (occasionally flawed though those employers might sometimes be..like all airlines). If you aren't part of our side of the fence then you must be, by definition, part of the problem.
And lecturing someone on English by using the word "who's" instead of the correct "whose" does little for your credibility. There are plenty of on-line guides to the correct use of the Queen's English and I suggest that since you are cyber-literate enough to author venomous posts you could usefully let your fingers do the walking to a little electronic education. Look up www.how tobeamoresensitivexpat.com while you're at it.
There's probably not another airline in the world that has more aggressively approached the task of re-inventing itself over the last 5 years. It would have achieved more if not for the dead-weight of hateful attitudes such as yours. Please lighten up the load on us all and go someplace else!
Sherm
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Sherm Boy ]
[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Sherm Boy ]
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I think it is most unfair to blame Canadian
or any other expat pilots for not doing something about the pay cuts.
Any expat pilot who makes a suggestion to change or modify something will be given a polite lecture on Korean culture and how perfect it is and there ends the matter.
Expats are in Korea to serve a purpose,and whether you are an instructor or a line captain there is nothing you can do to change
the situation.
If you persist then you will end up without a job and in todays market I don't think anyone wants that,so give these guys a break.
or any other expat pilots for not doing something about the pay cuts.
Any expat pilot who makes a suggestion to change or modify something will be given a polite lecture on Korean culture and how perfect it is and there ends the matter.
Expats are in Korea to serve a purpose,and whether you are an instructor or a line captain there is nothing you can do to change
the situation.
If you persist then you will end up without a job and in todays market I don't think anyone wants that,so give these guys a break.
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KALPilot ...
You're entitled to your opinion, however, I think you are placing the blame in the wrong place. I'd feel quite safe in betting that if you were doing the job that you'd have got no further along than any of these guys have.
As far as effort goes, I can personally vouch for the amount of time that the ACP on my fleet has put in on issues affecting me and my colleagues, up to and including dealings with Greenberg. That he hasn't always been successful has never been for a lack of trying and the frustration he has had on those occasions has been obvious to all of us who know the guy.
You're entitled to your opinion, however, I think you are placing the blame in the wrong place. I'd feel quite safe in betting that if you were doing the job that you'd have got no further along than any of these guys have.
As far as effort goes, I can personally vouch for the amount of time that the ACP on my fleet has put in on issues affecting me and my colleagues, up to and including dealings with Greenberg. That he hasn't always been successful has never been for a lack of trying and the frustration he has had on those occasions has been obvious to all of us who know the guy.
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So all the pilots should just be obsequious little sycophants and be grateful for the shafting.
Take it or leave it!!
Now there is an original, helpful thought, usually expressed by those with a healthy dose of jealousy and failure within themselves.
Always nice to know your management will go to the firewall for you when things start getting tough.
Well Whatever............
Take it or leave it!!
Now there is an original, helpful thought, usually expressed by those with a healthy dose of jealousy and failure within themselves.
Always nice to know your management will go to the firewall for you when things start getting tough.
Well Whatever............
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Gentlemen:
Korean Air's (Korean) Management in their wisdom has finally taken steps to rectify the terrible situation we have long suffered by terminating ALL the ACP's (assistant chief pilots) on December, 12th, 2001.
I believe the foreigners in Quality Assurance (QA) are now being looked at and we hope Management will make the same decision. Watch this space.......
Also, it's time that Korean Air reverted to having only Korean's in the training department and the sooner the foreign Line Check Pilots) LCP's and DLCP's are removed from these positions the better for us all.
Interesting times ahead and it is sincerely hoped that Greenberg and Snyder do not have their contracts renewed.
More breaking news to follow as and when it happens!
Korean Air's (Korean) Management in their wisdom has finally taken steps to rectify the terrible situation we have long suffered by terminating ALL the ACP's (assistant chief pilots) on December, 12th, 2001.
I believe the foreigners in Quality Assurance (QA) are now being looked at and we hope Management will make the same decision. Watch this space.......
Also, it's time that Korean Air reverted to having only Korean's in the training department and the sooner the foreign Line Check Pilots) LCP's and DLCP's are removed from these positions the better for us all.
Interesting times ahead and it is sincerely hoped that Greenberg and Snyder do not have their contracts renewed.
More breaking news to follow as and when it happens!
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In response to the arrogant Captain who decided to bite the hand thats feeds him and knock the QA KOREAN VP whose english is less than acceptable, I think I heard American Airlines was looking to hire him. You are in a foreign country flying their planes and taking their jobs and dont like their rules?In these times Any flying job should be relished.I may not like the paycut from my contract or the circumstances that it was administered but I sure as hell would not make condacending remarks about My foreign employers. Incidentally I fly in the US and know that non Americans or non residents cannot get a job here. The fact that I can go to another country,get a job that wasnt available at home, and live better than the natives and take their jobs would definitely make me try and understand and respect their culture...
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Hello Everyone -
I am very new to this site and since logging on I find contents interesting and very agreeable.
All foreign ACP's and all QA auditors are not wanted or respected or liked in Korean Airlines.
ACP's especially used there respected positions for their own immoral purposes in order to stay in Seoul for many days at a time and not be with families at home!
This is Korean airline, and Korean gentlemen can manage it very well.
Any new foreign captain who accepts senior or management post will be under our investigation and all dirty dealing will be opened to public.
Thank you for your time.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
I am very new to this site and since logging on I find contents interesting and very agreeable.
All foreign ACP's and all QA auditors are not wanted or respected or liked in Korean Airlines.
ACP's especially used there respected positions for their own immoral purposes in order to stay in Seoul for many days at a time and not be with families at home!
This is Korean airline, and Korean gentlemen can manage it very well.
Any new foreign captain who accepts senior or management post will be under our investigation and all dirty dealing will be opened to public.
Thank you for your time.
[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]
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KEiONU I fully agree with you, you hit it right on the head. Korean could be very well managed by the "Korean Gentlemen". But there is only one little problem KEiONU: Where can we find a Korean Gentleman!!!!