Merger with SAS
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Let's give them a break. This thread started out with a commander in BU being worried at the prospect of a RHS in SAS. Undertanderbly.
I'm sure the guyes here didn't call the shots when Malmö Aviation were merged. It's a valid point though. But its human nature to look after yourself, and your referencegroup first. BU did it and we will do it. I don't recall who made the decision to stack LIN into the SAS minus 5 years, but I do know it won't happen again.
Just talked to a buddy af mine flying for Emirates. Two ex-Malmö Aviation guyes started a couple of months ago - one was chief pilot - guess the didn't like the BU hospitality either.
I'm sure the guyes here didn't call the shots when Malmö Aviation were merged. It's a valid point though. But its human nature to look after yourself, and your referencegroup first. BU did it and we will do it. I don't recall who made the decision to stack LIN into the SAS minus 5 years, but I do know it won't happen again.
Just talked to a buddy af mine flying for Emirates. Two ex-Malmö Aviation guyes started a couple of months ago - one was chief pilot - guess the didn't like the BU hospitality either.
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Maybe these guys did call the shots but you are probably right Nite_flite, they probably didn't (but do remember as a member of a union you are part responsible for its actions). That's beside my point. The point being that it is interesting to hear by the BU pilots own words how they justify their standpoint on the issue compared to how Malmö Av./Transwede was handled by themselves. Again NOT saying that IS how they should or will be treated just curious to their own opinions...
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Back to the top,
I´d like to know too. Don´t know what went on, but we might learn what NOT to do???
Also, I´ve/we´ve been called greedy and protectionists for something we haven´t done yet (or won´t do), so I´d still like to hear how BU pilots would like to see this done!
I´d like to know too. Don´t know what went on, but we might learn what NOT to do???
Also, I´ve/we´ve been called greedy and protectionists for something we haven´t done yet (or won´t do), so I´d still like to hear how BU pilots would like to see this done!
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Tcas:
Same scenario as AA and TWA: The AA pilots keep saying: This is no merger, it is a take over and a rescue operation.
Therefore no "Date of Hire."
The AA boys says: We will be fair and square and give the TWA captains a left seat, but with a fence around it: If ya flew DC-9s with TWA, ya can not bid the 777 even if ya are on the AA list and could hold it based on original D.O.H.seniority.
The TWA folks on the other hand, want a "fair" deal and a proper number on the big list: "D.O.H."
They are howling over the AA pilots propsal the some 850 TWA captains keep their seat, but the remaining 1600 TWA pilots go to the bottom of the list, on the date after the signing. (March 9th meh thinks)
The good news is that all TWA pilots get pay seniority on AA's payscale as of next year.
Should make even the bottom TWA guy happy as he will get a healthy pay increase, and he will get paid more than AA pilots with higher AA seniority but with less "Pay" years under his belt.
Don't know if the above model would work in the SK/BU deal, but there is always something to be learned from people that have fought the same battle before you.
(Uh, by the way, the above is not agreed on yet, just proposals.)
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Men, this is no drill...
Same scenario as AA and TWA: The AA pilots keep saying: This is no merger, it is a take over and a rescue operation.
Therefore no "Date of Hire."
The AA boys says: We will be fair and square and give the TWA captains a left seat, but with a fence around it: If ya flew DC-9s with TWA, ya can not bid the 777 even if ya are on the AA list and could hold it based on original D.O.H.seniority.
The TWA folks on the other hand, want a "fair" deal and a proper number on the big list: "D.O.H."
They are howling over the AA pilots propsal the some 850 TWA captains keep their seat, but the remaining 1600 TWA pilots go to the bottom of the list, on the date after the signing. (March 9th meh thinks)
The good news is that all TWA pilots get pay seniority on AA's payscale as of next year.
Should make even the bottom TWA guy happy as he will get a healthy pay increase, and he will get paid more than AA pilots with higher AA seniority but with less "Pay" years under his belt.
Don't know if the above model would work in the SK/BU deal, but there is always something to be learned from people that have fought the same battle before you.
(Uh, by the way, the above is not agreed on yet, just proposals.)
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Men, this is no drill...
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Tcas:
No, I am not suggesting that you guys do it one way or the other, just wrote my piece to show how others are dealing with the same problems.
Is the SK and BU pilots members of the same union? Nordisk Flygerforbund or something?
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Men, this is no drill...
No, I am not suggesting that you guys do it one way or the other, just wrote my piece to show how others are dealing with the same problems.
Is the SK and BU pilots members of the same union? Nordisk Flygerforbund or something?
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Men, this is no drill...
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Yes, and I suppose this already have been discussed many times and will be in the near future. It will be very interesting to see how collegial the different groups will treat each other and what model will be decided on within the union.
TCAS, you are forgetting that there are others in the same situation as you but working at Braathens. What is the difference really between you and them?
And TCAS, yes the assets of a company are at the disposal of the owner, with some hard restrictions. But I cannot see how that would in any way authorize you as an employee to disregard common sense and decency unless, you are a shareholder and in that case your chance to influence decisions is at the annual shareholdersmeeting. I think you are confusing the collegial discussion with boardroomtalk.
TCAS, you are forgetting that there are others in the same situation as you but working at Braathens. What is the difference really between you and them?
And TCAS, yes the assets of a company are at the disposal of the owner, with some hard restrictions. But I cannot see how that would in any way authorize you as an employee to disregard common sense and decency unless, you are a shareholder and in that case your chance to influence decisions is at the annual shareholdersmeeting. I think you are confusing the collegial discussion with boardroomtalk.
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SAS is BUYING Braathens, NOT merging, which kind of answers Your last question Laminar.
The difference between SK & BU senioritylists is the fact, that the SK pilot-unions do not need, nor do they have to give any seniority to BU pilots on their kombi-list, IF they,(BU),are ever accepted on it! The fact that it is been brought up by BU pilots (not beeing the initial point on this topic though) seems a bit premature.
WELL CONNECTED WITH THE SAS and a SAS paint-scheme(with the Norwegian flag, being the flag-carrier)is probably the most likely solution for Braathens, even though operations are supposed to to match the SAS standards, closely supervised through auditions etc..
Bringing up "appendices" like Cimber Air, Air Botnia among others, it would be good to remember one thing. Of all the companies mentioned so far in previous postings, (kind of surprising that Air Baltic hasn´t been mentioned at all, being the cheapest to operate of all the companies SAS is a share-holder in) Air Botnia is the ONLY ONE owned by the SAS to 100%. The only way to tell the difference between SAS Finland and KF today is Flight Ops, the pilots and c/a´s being the ones effectively beeing kept outside the SAS organization = cheaper.
The fact that SAS (yes SAS) invested in 10 new a/c for the above mentioned company (5 brand new RJ85 & 5-7,so far 5, SB20) hardly means that KF is looked upon as an appendix by SAS,especially since the RJ contract is rumoured to be for four years only, after that look out for the new Dornier which is still on the production-line(read LH)!. Today KF is cheaper to operate than SC, but with a far better fleet, which should be a major concern especially to SC pilots, since SC is still regarded as an "appendix" and KF-pilots have a far worse (again cheaper) deal.
KF can provide the same services to SAS as SC but 25-35% cheaper, as soon as the KF pilot-union agrees to this (might take a while though...)-so far the SAS unions haven´t been bothered to comment or take stand...
For the SAS-unions BU aircraft might be welcome, but for BU pilots to demand a place on the kombi-list or expecting seniority based on what You had before the company was bought, would be naive. WHY, would any-one in SAS give BU pilots an advantage, when all that matters at the end of the day is your "bring home pay", and what you bring home, not to mention your advancement options(ie long-haul if you prefer it to s/h or m/h) is directly relative to fleet/ years in service?
The fact that You served x-years in a company before Your management sold you out doesn´t entitle you to ANYTHING on the BUYERS senioritylist.
I´d also like to hear comments from Malmoe-guys/ex. Malmoe-guys who were asked to find emplyment elsewhere with the Braathens take-over (BUYING, NOT MERGING!)
The above, on some points even harsh, writing is not meant to be offensive to anyone (I`m just curious, as I suspect many others both on&off this forum to be), and I´d like to extend my apologies to anyone who might have taken offence.
The topic is sensitive to many Scandi-land pilots (including me), so further CONSTRUCTIVE discussion would be most welcome!
With regards,
A/M
The difference between SK & BU senioritylists is the fact, that the SK pilot-unions do not need, nor do they have to give any seniority to BU pilots on their kombi-list, IF they,(BU),are ever accepted on it! The fact that it is been brought up by BU pilots (not beeing the initial point on this topic though) seems a bit premature.
WELL CONNECTED WITH THE SAS and a SAS paint-scheme(with the Norwegian flag, being the flag-carrier)is probably the most likely solution for Braathens, even though operations are supposed to to match the SAS standards, closely supervised through auditions etc..
Bringing up "appendices" like Cimber Air, Air Botnia among others, it would be good to remember one thing. Of all the companies mentioned so far in previous postings, (kind of surprising that Air Baltic hasn´t been mentioned at all, being the cheapest to operate of all the companies SAS is a share-holder in) Air Botnia is the ONLY ONE owned by the SAS to 100%. The only way to tell the difference between SAS Finland and KF today is Flight Ops, the pilots and c/a´s being the ones effectively beeing kept outside the SAS organization = cheaper.
The fact that SAS (yes SAS) invested in 10 new a/c for the above mentioned company (5 brand new RJ85 & 5-7,so far 5, SB20) hardly means that KF is looked upon as an appendix by SAS,especially since the RJ contract is rumoured to be for four years only, after that look out for the new Dornier which is still on the production-line(read LH)!. Today KF is cheaper to operate than SC, but with a far better fleet, which should be a major concern especially to SC pilots, since SC is still regarded as an "appendix" and KF-pilots have a far worse (again cheaper) deal.
KF can provide the same services to SAS as SC but 25-35% cheaper, as soon as the KF pilot-union agrees to this (might take a while though...)-so far the SAS unions haven´t been bothered to comment or take stand...
For the SAS-unions BU aircraft might be welcome, but for BU pilots to demand a place on the kombi-list or expecting seniority based on what You had before the company was bought, would be naive. WHY, would any-one in SAS give BU pilots an advantage, when all that matters at the end of the day is your "bring home pay", and what you bring home, not to mention your advancement options(ie long-haul if you prefer it to s/h or m/h) is directly relative to fleet/ years in service?
The fact that You served x-years in a company before Your management sold you out doesn´t entitle you to ANYTHING on the BUYERS senioritylist.
I´d also like to hear comments from Malmoe-guys/ex. Malmoe-guys who were asked to find emplyment elsewhere with the Braathens take-over (BUYING, NOT MERGING!)
The above, on some points even harsh, writing is not meant to be offensive to anyone (I`m just curious, as I suspect many others both on&off this forum to be), and I´d like to extend my apologies to anyone who might have taken offence.
The topic is sensitive to many Scandi-land pilots (including me), so further CONSTRUCTIVE discussion would be most welcome!
With regards,
A/M
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You are all so correct, SAS is BUYING BRA, it is NO MERGER, THANK GOD.
With the lowlife attitude you SAS pilots show on this topic we BRA pilot should count our blessings.
While you are sitting on your precious seniority list, we will operate as an independent airline in "competition" with SAS. Our operation costs are 20% below the mothercompany so you do not have to be a rocket scientist to figuer where the financial wizkids in Stocholm will let the coming expantion take place.
I have heard from a reliable source that BRA
already next year will start taking over SAS`s B-767 to fly long-range charters. BRA already has typerated B-767 crews for the first two aircraft. ENJOY!!!!
Regards, ten.
With the lowlife attitude you SAS pilots show on this topic we BRA pilot should count our blessings.
While you are sitting on your precious seniority list, we will operate as an independent airline in "competition" with SAS. Our operation costs are 20% below the mothercompany so you do not have to be a rocket scientist to figuer where the financial wizkids in Stocholm will let the coming expantion take place.
I have heard from a reliable source that BRA
already next year will start taking over SAS`s B-767 to fly long-range charters. BRA already has typerated B-767 crews for the first two aircraft. ENJOY!!!!
Regards, ten.
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Ten/four -
if your attitude is indeed for real, how do you explain BU:s treatment of Malmö Aviation and Transwede including the BRA-unions protectionistic treatment of the Malmö/T.swede pilots that was made redundant as a result of Braathens mis-management? Without sounding sarcastic; 'I would just love to hear a reaction and a comparison of the situation, from "your" point of view.....'
if your attitude is indeed for real, how do you explain BU:s treatment of Malmö Aviation and Transwede including the BRA-unions protectionistic treatment of the Malmö/T.swede pilots that was made redundant as a result of Braathens mis-management? Without sounding sarcastic; 'I would just love to hear a reaction and a comparison of the situation, from "your" point of view.....'
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Hi guys!
Took a short holiday and see the thread has developed.
Some of you ask us (BU pilots) questions about Busy Bee, Malmø Aviation and Transwede. I will try to answer to best of my knowledge.
The three companies in question were all owned by Braathens, but operated as independent airlines (Like we hope to stay). There were never any talks of merging lists or companies. I believe Braathens wanted to keep it that way since they operated at a lower cost than us (as we do compared to SAS). The difference being we will fly some of the same routes as SAS, whatever implication that will have.
When times got tough the mentioned companies were more or less shut down (like I believe SAS will to with us in a similar situation). The pilots who lost their jobs were given priority when BU needed new pilots, though they had to be accepted through interwievs. To my knowledge our union did not play a major part in this. Personally I think these pilots could have been treated more generously.
Took a short holiday and see the thread has developed.
Some of you ask us (BU pilots) questions about Busy Bee, Malmø Aviation and Transwede. I will try to answer to best of my knowledge.
The three companies in question were all owned by Braathens, but operated as independent airlines (Like we hope to stay). There were never any talks of merging lists or companies. I believe Braathens wanted to keep it that way since they operated at a lower cost than us (as we do compared to SAS). The difference being we will fly some of the same routes as SAS, whatever implication that will have.
When times got tough the mentioned companies were more or less shut down (like I believe SAS will to with us in a similar situation). The pilots who lost their jobs were given priority when BU needed new pilots, though they had to be accepted through interwievs. To my knowledge our union did not play a major part in this. Personally I think these pilots could have been treated more generously.
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Dear Hung : "wasn`t it"
Dear KADS : I have never known the merger of Malmø Aviation and BRA`s seniority list to ever have been a subject from either pilot union.
If it has and BRA pilot union knowingly has worked against it ( something I seriously doubt ) I think it is highly objectionable.
What I know is that the laid off pilots from Malmø Aviation have first priority in BRA and their are pilots on training now.
When BRA hired laid off Colour Air pilots some time ago, the BRA pilots union strongly objected to this on behalf of our Swedish colleagues.
What I am trying to say in my last column is that 99% of us BRA pilots have no problem living with the working environment and terms we have today. With the expansion planed at 1 1/2 to 2 aircraft a year, up to a total of 50 a/c and with time to command at approx. 6 yr.
BUT CAN YOU????????
Regards, ten.
Dear KADS : I have never known the merger of Malmø Aviation and BRA`s seniority list to ever have been a subject from either pilot union.
If it has and BRA pilot union knowingly has worked against it ( something I seriously doubt ) I think it is highly objectionable.
What I know is that the laid off pilots from Malmø Aviation have first priority in BRA and their are pilots on training now.
When BRA hired laid off Colour Air pilots some time ago, the BRA pilots union strongly objected to this on behalf of our Swedish colleagues.
What I am trying to say in my last column is that 99% of us BRA pilots have no problem living with the working environment and terms we have today. With the expansion planed at 1 1/2 to 2 aircraft a year, up to a total of 50 a/c and with time to command at approx. 6 yr.
BUT CAN YOU????????
Regards, ten.
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Although "ten/four"s rumour sounds RATHER unlikely, it raises an interesting point;
Will Braathens join the ranks of airlines with SAS ownership who have relatively cheap operating costs, and thus will deprive SAS/SC pilots and cabin crew of route sectors?
Is this where the expansion is to take place? I think the Air Botnia story speaks for itself. SAS buys a brand fleet of Avros for Botnia, while SAS Commuter still trudges around in turboprops. It will be interesting to watch how unions will react if the same thing happens with BRA.
Seen in this context, maybe it will be an advantage to merge the seniority lists after all... opinions?
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"what's it doing now...?"
Will Braathens join the ranks of airlines with SAS ownership who have relatively cheap operating costs, and thus will deprive SAS/SC pilots and cabin crew of route sectors?
Is this where the expansion is to take place? I think the Air Botnia story speaks for itself. SAS buys a brand fleet of Avros for Botnia, while SAS Commuter still trudges around in turboprops. It will be interesting to watch how unions will react if the same thing happens with BRA.
Seen in this context, maybe it will be an advantage to merge the seniority lists after all... opinions?
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"what's it doing now...?"
Guest
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High, quote:
"When times got tough the mentioned companies were more or less shut down (like I believe SAS will to with us in a similar situation)."
??
Have Braathens ever been in a tougher spot than now?
SAS is in fact agreeing to BUY Braathens, which is quite the opposite of shutting down, I must say...
"When times got tough the mentioned companies were more or less shut down (like I believe SAS will to with us in a similar situation)."
??
Have Braathens ever been in a tougher spot than now?
SAS is in fact agreeing to BUY Braathens, which is quite the opposite of shutting down, I must say...
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Dear PropsAreForBoats and the rest of you.
This is a RUMOURS network and my claim that BRA is inheriting SAS`s B-767 is of course NOT true. But you(P.A.F.B) got my message. Spinn on this one!! A strong and independent BRA is not necessary "good news" for you.
Regards, ten
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
This is a RUMOURS network and my claim that BRA is inheriting SAS`s B-767 is of course NOT true. But you(P.A.F.B) got my message. Spinn on this one!! A strong and independent BRA is not necessary "good news" for you.
Regards, ten
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
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ten/four,
The expansion up to 50 aircraft you´re talking about....tell me more! Is that something that Braathens have planned?? In that case, on the verge of bankrupcy, that is a pretty bold plan!! Sorry to sound ignorant, but I haven´t heard of such plans.
The expansion is already moving on at a hefty pace in SAS with Airbuses starting to arrive, and to be flown by SAS folks. So please enlighten me!!
Your rumour about 767, yes I heard that we are keeping 2 longer than planned, but not for BU!!!
Lets see if the deal goes ahead. If it does, the official plan is still to let BU operate as an independant. And that I hope, together with you and High, that it will.
If not, and BU is incorporated into SAS, then and only then, is it of interest to talk merging senioritylists. If you´ve read my opinion on that, and think that my attitude on that subject is lousy, then so be it. But I hope that we stay seperate, if for nothing else, then to avoid all the bad stuff that we see will occur!!
Now, where is the advantage in giving BU two 767´s to fly charter in, when SAS has plenty of crews trained and current.
The expansion up to 50 aircraft you´re talking about....tell me more! Is that something that Braathens have planned?? In that case, on the verge of bankrupcy, that is a pretty bold plan!! Sorry to sound ignorant, but I haven´t heard of such plans.
The expansion is already moving on at a hefty pace in SAS with Airbuses starting to arrive, and to be flown by SAS folks. So please enlighten me!!
Your rumour about 767, yes I heard that we are keeping 2 longer than planned, but not for BU!!!
Lets see if the deal goes ahead. If it does, the official plan is still to let BU operate as an independant. And that I hope, together with you and High, that it will.
If not, and BU is incorporated into SAS, then and only then, is it of interest to talk merging senioritylists. If you´ve read my opinion on that, and think that my attitude on that subject is lousy, then so be it. But I hope that we stay seperate, if for nothing else, then to avoid all the bad stuff that we see will occur!!
Now, where is the advantage in giving BU two 767´s to fly charter in, when SAS has plenty of crews trained and current.
Guest
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Dear Hung start.
As for the B-767 claim see my post above.
As for the BRA`s expantion up to 50 aircraft was a rough planed estimates from SAS given to us by our Dir.Flt.Ops. in a briefing the day the plans for a takeover was announced.
I agry with you, I realy hope BRA can stay an independent company.
As for you suggestion of a prospective merger to our two senority list.
If this should become a realistic subject I
am confident the norwegian (scandinavian) courts can and will settle this matter.
I must say after reading some of the postes on this topic, with all due respect that I am pleased and confident that it will not be a desition made by your colleagues.
Thank you for keeping this discussion at a courteous level.
Regards, ten.
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
As for the B-767 claim see my post above.
As for the BRA`s expantion up to 50 aircraft was a rough planed estimates from SAS given to us by our Dir.Flt.Ops. in a briefing the day the plans for a takeover was announced.
I agry with you, I realy hope BRA can stay an independent company.
As for you suggestion of a prospective merger to our two senority list.
If this should become a realistic subject I
am confident the norwegian (scandinavian) courts can and will settle this matter.
I must say after reading some of the postes on this topic, with all due respect that I am pleased and confident that it will not be a desition made by your colleagues.
Thank you for keeping this discussion at a courteous level.
Regards, ten.
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]
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Possibly a bit off subject, but.......
As correctly mentioned, this is a rumours networtk. It is stated here time and time again that Braathens is bankrupt. This is NOT the case. Truly we have lost a lot of money the last few years, mainly through our swedish opertations. As for the situation right now, it does not look so bad. The results from the first 3 months of 2001 showed a loss that appeared surprisingly large to a lot of people. Many believe this was generated by creative bookkeeping. Why? It is also believed a major shareholder in BU realized there is little money to be made in this business and decided to cash in his chips. To get a good price SAS was the only alternative as a buyer. No other investor/airline would profit like SAS with Braathen in their pocket. And as mention previously, to get political accept an approaching bankrupcy had to be made believable.
As correctly mentioned, this is a rumours networtk. It is stated here time and time again that Braathens is bankrupt. This is NOT the case. Truly we have lost a lot of money the last few years, mainly through our swedish opertations. As for the situation right now, it does not look so bad. The results from the first 3 months of 2001 showed a loss that appeared surprisingly large to a lot of people. Many believe this was generated by creative bookkeeping. Why? It is also believed a major shareholder in BU realized there is little money to be made in this business and decided to cash in his chips. To get a good price SAS was the only alternative as a buyer. No other investor/airline would profit like SAS with Braathen in their pocket. And as mention previously, to get political accept an approaching bankrupcy had to be made believable.
Guest
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Hasn't this gone far enough now....although it is amusing reading I admit.
Fact is we are all speculating on the future.
HIGH - you make a lot of sense. Your views are clear and not full of contmpt like your colleage Ten/Four.
Ten/Four - This is a rumour network, therefor telling lies (B767) will only backfire on your credibility, once you have calmed down and want to be serious.
...let the future begin.......
Fact is we are all speculating on the future.
HIGH - you make a lot of sense. Your views are clear and not full of contmpt like your colleage Ten/Four.
Ten/Four - This is a rumour network, therefor telling lies (B767) will only backfire on your credibility, once you have calmed down and want to be serious.
...let the future begin.......
Guest
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Nite_Flite.
Our future is formed today. Where would we be without a free and open discussion?
About me "lying" regarding the B767, o.k only trying to show a nother and real side to this discussion and hoped for some reaction,which I got. I also withdrew the B767 "lie" or rumour as I choose to call it 3 hour later.
As to contempt, I am actualy very relaxed to this hole story and have no reason for contempt.
Regards, ten.
Our future is formed today. Where would we be without a free and open discussion?
About me "lying" regarding the B767, o.k only trying to show a nother and real side to this discussion and hoped for some reaction,which I got. I also withdrew the B767 "lie" or rumour as I choose to call it 3 hour later.
As to contempt, I am actualy very relaxed to this hole story and have no reason for contempt.
Regards, ten.