Merger with SAS
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Thanks for the replies guys! Allthough this thread has gone off in a direction not intended by me it's still interesting (but pherhaps not productive). I was originally seeking information about possible employers, but the seniority discussion is an interesting one, even if the chances of agreeing is minimal.
Having said that, I can't help but add a few more points myself. Comparing this situation to the hiring of SC pilots by the mother company is irrelevant. In the BU/SAS case we're talking about adding 33 planes and 380 pilot positions to SAS, not just hiring pilots. I get the impression the planes and the jobs are welcome, but the pilots that go with it are trouble. Why should the 175+ captains of BU not get to stay in the seats they're already in? After all, if this goes through, we're talking about expanding SAS by 15% - planes and pilots. Which means the promotion rate of current SAS FO's will not slow down.
As for the possibilities of maintaining an independant Braathens, I don't think this will happen. The 10% savings on salaries is far outweighed by the savings possible if merged. Just the flexibility of having ALL 737 pilots being able to fly ALL the 737's is significant. Not to mention the benefit of not having to maintain two separate training organizations.
But sadly, reading some of the replies, my fears seem real. The two groups of pilots in question may have trouble finding ways of a peacful coexistance. SAS has sworn time and time again not repeat the Linjeflyg "battle", but judging from the attitude reflected in some replies, that's exactly what is happening.
So speaking for myself, I'd rather fly out of Dublin or London than going to work in Oslo having to bring along a baseball bat.
Having said that, I can't help but add a few more points myself. Comparing this situation to the hiring of SC pilots by the mother company is irrelevant. In the BU/SAS case we're talking about adding 33 planes and 380 pilot positions to SAS, not just hiring pilots. I get the impression the planes and the jobs are welcome, but the pilots that go with it are trouble. Why should the 175+ captains of BU not get to stay in the seats they're already in? After all, if this goes through, we're talking about expanding SAS by 15% - planes and pilots. Which means the promotion rate of current SAS FO's will not slow down.
As for the possibilities of maintaining an independant Braathens, I don't think this will happen. The 10% savings on salaries is far outweighed by the savings possible if merged. Just the flexibility of having ALL 737 pilots being able to fly ALL the 737's is significant. Not to mention the benefit of not having to maintain two separate training organizations.
But sadly, reading some of the replies, my fears seem real. The two groups of pilots in question may have trouble finding ways of a peacful coexistance. SAS has sworn time and time again not repeat the Linjeflyg "battle", but judging from the attitude reflected in some replies, that's exactly what is happening.
So speaking for myself, I'd rather fly out of Dublin or London than going to work in Oslo having to bring along a baseball bat.
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Unable
Not disputing the numbers. But when a pilot leaves SC to join SAS he doesn't bring any jobs into his new company - just a new pilot. Hence not creating any new captain postitions for his new colleagues to upgrade into.
For that reson the situations can't be compared.
Not disputing the numbers. But when a pilot leaves SC to join SAS he doesn't bring any jobs into his new company - just a new pilot. Hence not creating any new captain postitions for his new colleagues to upgrade into.
For that reson the situations can't be compared.
Guest
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OK. I get your point, High.
A merger of the seniority lists will create unhappy pilots, no matter how it's done. And as much as I sympathize with the BU-pilots, I can tell that a SC-captain employed in '89 will go totally crazy if he gets bypassed at the list by a BU-pilot employed in, say, '95.
Could the following be a possible compromise for both "sides"? :
1. BU-pilots are added at the bottom of the seniority list.
2. BU-captains keep the left seat
3. BU-pilots enter the SAS-payscale with their original BU-seniority, thus getting a slightly higher pay.
A merger of the seniority lists will create unhappy pilots, no matter how it's done. And as much as I sympathize with the BU-pilots, I can tell that a SC-captain employed in '89 will go totally crazy if he gets bypassed at the list by a BU-pilot employed in, say, '95.
Could the following be a possible compromise for both "sides"? :
1. BU-pilots are added at the bottom of the seniority list.
2. BU-captains keep the left seat
3. BU-pilots enter the SAS-payscale with their original BU-seniority, thus getting a slightly higher pay.
Guest
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Great postings, all of them.
My cardinal thought here is that BU will live in peacefull coexcistance with was, that is if you are a pilot. Obviously the ground crew are more at risk.
Nick - I wrote my mail looking at the SAS/SC angle, with respect to the way you read my pasus on " great deal for both companies..".
SC gets a lot of unexperienced FO's, who will get some experience under their belts before going to Airline. So the advantage for airline is that they get pilots already well into SAS procedures. The advantage for SC is a flow of pilots keeping salaries down (hmm and training costs up..).
We will not see BU FC's dumped in the right seat on SAS aircraft. Unless there would be some bidding deal. i.e. to fly A340 voluntarily.
The LIN/SAS issue is not really an issue anymore. Nobody speaks about it anymore and we don't know who´s who.
Personally I got shafted on that deal and lost 230 slots on the list, but thats life,
it makes no difference complaining about it.
HIGH - in response to wil statement "why shouldn't the BU FC's stay in their seats. By all means, do stay. But when it comes to puting you on the bottom of the SAS FC list,
I would strongly object to. If the market stalls it could delay my upgrade, and without a doubt destroy a lot of senior FC's chances for a longhaul command.
Be safe out there..
[This message has been edited by Nite_Flite (edited 14 June 2001).]
My cardinal thought here is that BU will live in peacefull coexcistance with was, that is if you are a pilot. Obviously the ground crew are more at risk.
Nick - I wrote my mail looking at the SAS/SC angle, with respect to the way you read my pasus on " great deal for both companies..".
SC gets a lot of unexperienced FO's, who will get some experience under their belts before going to Airline. So the advantage for airline is that they get pilots already well into SAS procedures. The advantage for SC is a flow of pilots keeping salaries down (hmm and training costs up..).
We will not see BU FC's dumped in the right seat on SAS aircraft. Unless there would be some bidding deal. i.e. to fly A340 voluntarily.
The LIN/SAS issue is not really an issue anymore. Nobody speaks about it anymore and we don't know who´s who.
Personally I got shafted on that deal and lost 230 slots on the list, but thats life,
it makes no difference complaining about it.
HIGH - in response to wil statement "why shouldn't the BU FC's stay in their seats. By all means, do stay. But when it comes to puting you on the bottom of the SAS FC list,
I would strongly object to. If the market stalls it could delay my upgrade, and without a doubt destroy a lot of senior FC's chances for a longhaul command.
Be safe out there..
[This message has been edited by Nite_Flite (edited 14 June 2001).]
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Nick Fig and High, I agree with you.
If they start merging eniority lists again, they´ll pee off a lot of people again. No way around it. Judging from the past they have a hard time learning from their own mistakes. One thing you can bet on: The guys doing the merging will make sure they themselves don´t get hosed. Too bad about the other guys.
If they start merging eniority lists again, they´ll pee off a lot of people again. No way around it. Judging from the past they have a hard time learning from their own mistakes. One thing you can bet on: The guys doing the merging will make sure they themselves don´t get hosed. Too bad about the other guys.
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Why is it so important for some of you guys to point out "it is not a merger it´s a takeover"? That is a fact but what does it have to do with senioritylists? It is truly irrelevant! What the SAS board of directors have decided on gives no right to the employees to disregard common sense, decency or labour law-jobsecurity. I smell greed, protectionism and illfounded fear of competition over jobs in some of the postings. There are recommendations given by IFALPA concerning situations like this and it would be an appropriate time for the SAS-unions to adhere to them and make up for all the greedy bad in the past.
I´m also asking myself who would lose on a mixing of lists at this time? I think nobody, but perhaps some overpompous FC:s pride.
And why is it so clear that bu will be an appendix to sk? Explain that please!
I´m also asking myself who would lose on a mixing of lists at this time? I think nobody, but perhaps some overpompous FC:s pride.
And why is it so clear that bu will be an appendix to sk? Explain that please!
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I have a dream.
My dream will never come true ; but you can't stop me from dreaming.
In my recurrent dream SAS is bought by a company called X Airlines. The pilots in X Airlines are not happy at all. They summon the most intelligent pilots among their ranks and the ones known for their skills in logical thinking to a meeting. It does not take long for these good men (and women) to reach their verdict.
# SAS is bought by X Airlines and therefore we, as EMPLOYEES can deal with the scandi-pilots the way we feel fit.
At first all the Vikings were a bit upset but it didn't take long for them to come to their senses (Vikings also being known for their abilities in logical thinking) and they all happily accepted the deal proposed (imposed) by their new "colleagues".
(Apologies for all misspellings)
Best regards all BU-pilots
Malte Blaxhed
My dream will never come true ; but you can't stop me from dreaming.
In my recurrent dream SAS is bought by a company called X Airlines. The pilots in X Airlines are not happy at all. They summon the most intelligent pilots among their ranks and the ones known for their skills in logical thinking to a meeting. It does not take long for these good men (and women) to reach their verdict.
# SAS is bought by X Airlines and therefore we, as EMPLOYEES can deal with the scandi-pilots the way we feel fit.
At first all the Vikings were a bit upset but it didn't take long for them to come to their senses (Vikings also being known for their abilities in logical thinking) and they all happily accepted the deal proposed (imposed) by their new "colleagues".
(Apologies for all misspellings)
Best regards all BU-pilots
Malte Blaxhed
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Good one! 
But I guess, to most SAS employees, the difference between your story and the SAS/BRA story is that BRA is on a steady course towards the abyss, facing severe cuts or certain bancruptcy if SAS doesn't buy it. Hence the vikings are the "saviours" this time.
Actually, the SAS pilots' unions are officially against the takeover, one of the reasons being the very issue we are discussing in this topic.
Nick.
------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
But I guess, to most SAS employees, the difference between your story and the SAS/BRA story is that BRA is on a steady course towards the abyss, facing severe cuts or certain bancruptcy if SAS doesn't buy it. Hence the vikings are the "saviours" this time.
Actually, the SAS pilots' unions are officially against the takeover, one of the reasons being the very issue we are discussing in this topic.
Nick.
------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
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Laminar and Malte,
You guys are already trying to stirr up, and complain about some things....and complain about your, maybe, future colleagues.....before anyone knows anything about whats going to happen.
Funny how some already are attacking pilots at SAS, for saying the exact same thing, as the management has said.
You are on the attack here. Nobody is trying to "impose" anything on you here. But if you feel that your seniority at BU should follow you into SAS, you can´t blame SAS pilots for trying to protect their seniority... Please read Nite_Flites last post again.
Let me turn the question around. Why is it so important for you guys to merge lists???
To High, very sensible posts. You sound like a guy, that I would be proud to be a colleague of. I hope that you won´t feel the need to go elsewhere.
In my humble opinion, BU captains should stay in the left seat on 737, if lists are merged. They bring jobs, airplanes and loyal pax and staff. BU will be a great asset to SAS.
You guys are already trying to stirr up, and complain about some things....and complain about your, maybe, future colleagues.....before anyone knows anything about whats going to happen.
Funny how some already are attacking pilots at SAS, for saying the exact same thing, as the management has said.
You are on the attack here. Nobody is trying to "impose" anything on you here. But if you feel that your seniority at BU should follow you into SAS, you can´t blame SAS pilots for trying to protect their seniority... Please read Nite_Flites last post again.
Let me turn the question around. Why is it so important for you guys to merge lists???
To High, very sensible posts. You sound like a guy, that I would be proud to be a colleague of. I hope that you won´t feel the need to go elsewhere.
In my humble opinion, BU captains should stay in the left seat on 737, if lists are merged. They bring jobs, airplanes and loyal pax and staff. BU will be a great asset to SAS.
Guest
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Well Malte,
You sign off with : "Regards all BU pilots".
For most people, that means that you are speaking on behalf of most BU pilots. Then again, I think not.
But if that dream of yours is a good dream that unfortunately never will come true, then how in the world can you blame SAS pilots for dreaming the opposite, in trying to protect their place on the list.
Not saying that that is my dream though.
So far on this thread, the only people here that have actually come forward with opinions and suggestions on how to solve a possible merger of lists, are SAS folks. Most other posts, have just had the goal of blaming SAS pilots for perceived protectionism.
Please, Malte and Laminar, answer my question: What would you do? How would you merge the lists, to everybody (or most peoples) satisfaction. Suggestions please. Constructive posts please. Everything else only turns into a mud slinging match.
Now you´ve seen some suggestions from SAS pilots. We´d like to see yours.
You sign off with : "Regards all BU pilots".
For most people, that means that you are speaking on behalf of most BU pilots. Then again, I think not.
But if that dream of yours is a good dream that unfortunately never will come true, then how in the world can you blame SAS pilots for dreaming the opposite, in trying to protect their place on the list.
Not saying that that is my dream though.
So far on this thread, the only people here that have actually come forward with opinions and suggestions on how to solve a possible merger of lists, are SAS folks. Most other posts, have just had the goal of blaming SAS pilots for perceived protectionism.
Please, Malte and Laminar, answer my question: What would you do? How would you merge the lists, to everybody (or most peoples) satisfaction. Suggestions please. Constructive posts please. Everything else only turns into a mud slinging match.
Now you´ve seen some suggestions from SAS pilots. We´d like to see yours.
Guest
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Well said Hung Start. Lets just wait and see just what lies in store for our colleagues at BU.
Malte - I would not be one of those pilots in your dream. I'm not smart enough! I've real your post several times, and I still don't get it. You want SAS taken over by Airline X, and the X pilots being the good guyes (as opposed to us SAS pilots) would integrate us on equal terms. So what's the big deal here? Has SAS ever been in Airline X's place? I think not.
Let have "is i maven" as our northern cousins say, and let the future show.
Malte - I would not be one of those pilots in your dream. I'm not smart enough! I've real your post several times, and I still don't get it. You want SAS taken over by Airline X, and the X pilots being the good guyes (as opposed to us SAS pilots) would integrate us on equal terms. So what's the big deal here? Has SAS ever been in Airline X's place? I think not.
Let have "is i maven" as our northern cousins say, and let the future show.
Guest
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Hung start,
You are absolutely correct when you assume that I'm not speaking on behalf of the BU pilots ; I have no connection whatsoever with Braathens.
Believe me, I know these issues are very complicated indeed. What I would do, if I was involved, is to try and convince the SAS pilots that this is not only a problem, but more importantly a great OPPORTUNITY.
You have a golden chanse to show the aviation industry that it CAN be done, and by doing so earn the highest respect of colleagues all around the world. That kind of respect is, in my book, worth a LOT more than any number, up or down, on the seniority list.
As I see it, the key issue is that whatever agreement is made is reached by fair negotiation between the pilot groups. This may seem obvious to most of us, but judging from history not everyone agree.
The union representatives ON BOTH SIDES must be able to face their members and stand up for whatever deal is made.
A solution that is imposed onesidedly is destined to be a failiure.
If you succeed, you will set an example for future takeovers/mergers all around the world.
People will say : Let's use the SAS-BRA deal as a starting piont for these negotiations. Those guys had success where everyone else failed... They must truly be the best.
Malte
You are absolutely correct when you assume that I'm not speaking on behalf of the BU pilots ; I have no connection whatsoever with Braathens.
Believe me, I know these issues are very complicated indeed. What I would do, if I was involved, is to try and convince the SAS pilots that this is not only a problem, but more importantly a great OPPORTUNITY.
You have a golden chanse to show the aviation industry that it CAN be done, and by doing so earn the highest respect of colleagues all around the world. That kind of respect is, in my book, worth a LOT more than any number, up or down, on the seniority list.
As I see it, the key issue is that whatever agreement is made is reached by fair negotiation between the pilot groups. This may seem obvious to most of us, but judging from history not everyone agree.
The union representatives ON BOTH SIDES must be able to face their members and stand up for whatever deal is made.
A solution that is imposed onesidedly is destined to be a failiure.
If you succeed, you will set an example for future takeovers/mergers all around the world.
People will say : Let's use the SAS-BRA deal as a starting piont for these negotiations. Those guys had success where everyone else failed... They must truly be the best.
Malte
Guest
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Malteblaxed,
Well then we agree fully. I too would like to see a deal that all will be happy with. And I mean all. Should I lose some places on a list I wouldn´t mind at all, if it could mean that I could continue to enjoy spending my time at work with good colleagues, new or old.
So I choose to forget about your dream then...
Well then we agree fully. I too would like to see a deal that all will be happy with. And I mean all. Should I lose some places on a list I wouldn´t mind at all, if it could mean that I could continue to enjoy spending my time at work with good colleagues, new or old.
So I choose to forget about your dream then...
Guest
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HeavyDane - Agree, never a LIN solution again. Nobody who were involved walked away happy. You and I know that because we were there. Malte, thats another case, you are not BU you are not SAS. Just what kind of cat are you? You want to offer a solution to a problem that is not yet a problem, yet you are not employed on either side, and therefore not at risk. I'm sorry, but that doesn't count much in my book.
but that doesn't count much in my book.
Guest
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Nite_Flite
After reading Heavydanes post I decided not to participate in this any longer, but since you address me personaly, I will of course reply.
You ask why I want to offer a solution to a problem which does not affect me personaly.
The simple answer is that I was asked to by Hung start in one of his previous posts.
Secondly you want to know what "cat" ? I am.
As you probably already guessed I'm an ex LIN pilot who bailed out from SAS shortly after the SAS-LIN deal.
Today I'm happier than ever that I did.
Best regards all BU & SAS pilots except Heavydane
ps. and Nite_Flite I'm sorry if I don't count in your book ; you shurely count in mine.
[This message has been edited by malteblaxhed (edited 19 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by malteblaxhed (edited 19 June 2001).]
After reading Heavydanes post I decided not to participate in this any longer, but since you address me personaly, I will of course reply.
You ask why I want to offer a solution to a problem which does not affect me personaly.
The simple answer is that I was asked to by Hung start in one of his previous posts.
Secondly you want to know what "cat" ? I am.
As you probably already guessed I'm an ex LIN pilot who bailed out from SAS shortly after the SAS-LIN deal.
Today I'm happier than ever that I did.
Best regards all BU & SAS pilots except Heavydane
ps. and Nite_Flite I'm sorry if I don't count in your book ; you shurely count in mine.
[This message has been edited by malteblaxhed (edited 19 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by malteblaxhed (edited 19 June 2001).]