Merger with SAS
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So far, nobody has answered my question: How would you do it??. What would be a fair solution to a possible merger of lists, should someone decide to merge them. Malte, you said you were gonna do it, but didn´t. You´re only asking SAS folks to be sensible, but offering no concrete possible solutions.
From BU pilots and Malte, I only hear that " SAS pilots should be sensible and not greedy."
What does that mean?? Does it imply, that SAS pilots should just accept BU pilots bringing all of their seniority into SAS???
And just fiddle BU Captains and FO´s in on SAS seniority list? And seeing good folks like Nite_Flite get another 200 numbers kick away from an upgrade??
Answers and suggestions please!!
Mind you, I´m not advocating for "heavydanes" opinions. I find them embarresing. Going down your path heavydane, you´d have LIN times 10, with some mightily p***** of, demoted BU pilots.
Stick to our pay demands negotiations, that´s where we need somebody like you. NOT in dealing with (maybe) future colleagues....!
I stand to be corrected and ridiculed, but I´m thinking along Nite_Flites lines;
BU Captains stay in the left seat on 737. Period. ( Heavydane, we are talking people who, like you, have worked hard for years to get to where they are. With wifes and kids to take care of. With bills to pay.)
BU copilots stay in right seat of 737.
All get placed in bottom of the "kombi-list". (hard hat deployed). But here you have a lot of SC/SAS pilots that would be mightily pissed off, if anything else was to happen.
All BU pilots go in on the SAS pay scheme with the amount of years that they put into Braathens.
A 20 year Capt wit BU goes onto Year 20 on the SAS FC pay scheme.
A 2 year BU FO goes in on year 2 in SAS FO pay scheme.
This way, all BU pilots would see a payrise.
BU pilots wishing to switch A/C type, can do so, like everybody else in SAS. i.e according to seniority.( yes, it will take a while, but at BU there were no other types).
Pension, well thats a killer. That´s for smarter people than I to figure out. But let me add, that as of today, old SC pilots find it very expensive in loss of pension to switch to SAS.
What say you BU pilots. Am I waaaayy off the mark??
If nothing else, I´m glad to tell you that we are not all like heavydane!
From BU pilots and Malte, I only hear that " SAS pilots should be sensible and not greedy."
What does that mean?? Does it imply, that SAS pilots should just accept BU pilots bringing all of their seniority into SAS???
And just fiddle BU Captains and FO´s in on SAS seniority list? And seeing good folks like Nite_Flite get another 200 numbers kick away from an upgrade??
Answers and suggestions please!!
Mind you, I´m not advocating for "heavydanes" opinions. I find them embarresing. Going down your path heavydane, you´d have LIN times 10, with some mightily p***** of, demoted BU pilots.
Stick to our pay demands negotiations, that´s where we need somebody like you. NOT in dealing with (maybe) future colleagues....!
I stand to be corrected and ridiculed, but I´m thinking along Nite_Flites lines;
BU Captains stay in the left seat on 737. Period. ( Heavydane, we are talking people who, like you, have worked hard for years to get to where they are. With wifes and kids to take care of. With bills to pay.)
BU copilots stay in right seat of 737.
All get placed in bottom of the "kombi-list". (hard hat deployed). But here you have a lot of SC/SAS pilots that would be mightily pissed off, if anything else was to happen.
All BU pilots go in on the SAS pay scheme with the amount of years that they put into Braathens.
A 20 year Capt wit BU goes onto Year 20 on the SAS FC pay scheme.
A 2 year BU FO goes in on year 2 in SAS FO pay scheme.
This way, all BU pilots would see a payrise.
BU pilots wishing to switch A/C type, can do so, like everybody else in SAS. i.e according to seniority.( yes, it will take a while, but at BU there were no other types).
Pension, well thats a killer. That´s for smarter people than I to figure out. But let me add, that as of today, old SC pilots find it very expensive in loss of pension to switch to SAS.
What say you BU pilots. Am I waaaayy off the mark??
If nothing else, I´m glad to tell you that we are not all like heavydane!
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As an answer to "High"´s assertion earlier, that "current rate of promotion of SAS FO´s would not slow down", I disagree with High, and agree with Nite_Flites claim, that he would indeed have to wait longer:
SAS´s ambition is to grow 50% in 5 years. That is partly fulfilled with the acquisition of 22 A321. Now when another 33 Braathens 737´s are added to the fleet, we are getting very close to the advertised 50% expansion. At least in no. of aircraft.
If BU captains are placed in front of Nite_Flite on a merged list, with the expansion goal fulfilled, this would certainly slow down Nite_Flite´s (and many others) pace to a promotion, as compared to if SAS had not bought Braathens, and expanded inside of SAS.
So, bringing BU folks in on the list according to their date of hire in BU (as I can smell that you want), would be a pure winner for BU pilots, and a BIG looser for SAS pilots.
Is that what your drem is about Malte??
[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 20 June 2001).]
SAS´s ambition is to grow 50% in 5 years. That is partly fulfilled with the acquisition of 22 A321. Now when another 33 Braathens 737´s are added to the fleet, we are getting very close to the advertised 50% expansion. At least in no. of aircraft.
If BU captains are placed in front of Nite_Flite on a merged list, with the expansion goal fulfilled, this would certainly slow down Nite_Flite´s (and many others) pace to a promotion, as compared to if SAS had not bought Braathens, and expanded inside of SAS.
So, bringing BU folks in on the list according to their date of hire in BU (as I can smell that you want), would be a pure winner for BU pilots, and a BIG looser for SAS pilots.
Is that what your drem is about Malte??
[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 20 June 2001).]
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If such a take-over will happen; are the pilot unions free to decide how this should be done with regards to pay seniority and pensions? Or does the company have a say in the matter too?
[This message has been edited by PropsAreForBoats (edited 20 June 2001).]
[This message has been edited by PropsAreForBoats (edited 20 June 2001).]
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High,
I prey these words will hold true:
SAS' visekonsernsjef mener å ha et trøstens ord til dem som frykter at Braathens skal inkorporeres i SAS:
- Vi har ingen tanker om å integrere Braathens i SAS. Braathens skal forbli Braathens så langt vi kan skue inn i fremtiden. Braathens har et godt produktnavn som det vil være meningsløst å se bort fra, sier han.
To all of you non norwegian speaking people (both of you), the above quote is from the SAS boss saying there will be no merging between the two companies.
However, High, I do wonder where the ex Transwede, and not to forget, the Busy Bee pilots were put on your seniority list?
I prey these words will hold true:
SAS' visekonsernsjef mener å ha et trøstens ord til dem som frykter at Braathens skal inkorporeres i SAS:
- Vi har ingen tanker om å integrere Braathens i SAS. Braathens skal forbli Braathens så langt vi kan skue inn i fremtiden. Braathens har et godt produktnavn som det vil være meningsløst å se bort fra, sier han.
To all of you non norwegian speaking people (both of you), the above quote is from the SAS boss saying there will be no merging between the two companies.
However, High, I do wonder where the ex Transwede, and not to forget, the Busy Bee pilots were put on your seniority list?
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I must, once again, express my respect towards Hung and his "reasonable reasoning." I think there should be room for a little bit of "broad-mindedness" in this matter.
Scando: I have also registered what the CEO/SAS management has said, but there is a catch to it:
In english (My own translation):
How far can the SAS management look into the future? 
SAS have guaranteed for the BRA employees for two years. I think after two or three years, Braathens' future as a separate company will be much more uncertain.
Heavydane: Seeing posts like yours always make me wonder if the originator uses the same kind of uncompromising judgement in other aspects of life. How's the CRM of a guy like this? How does he bring up his kids? What's his view on people from other cultures? Does he always walk around with water-combed hair wearing a brown shirt and a bandolier?
Nice slogan. I think most SAS pilots will agree with you on that, Including myself. As I see it, the biggest problem with the Linjeflyg-affair was the unpleasant working environment that resulted from it.
The question is therefore: How do we avoid that in this case?
Your solution will most certainly destroy not just the working environment for BRA pilots, but the whole working environment for all pilots in our beloved company.
I don't know about you guys, but I look forward to every day at work. Which is mostly due to the motivated and inspiring colleagues I meet every day. I would gladly sacrifice a few places on the list to keep it that way. And I am cinvinced that the BRA pilots are just as motivated and inspiring as the SAS pilots are.
In my view, the size of the paycheck is slightly subordinated compared to the joy (or absence of joy) of going to work.
The "Hung-model" (or a similar one) should by far take care of this. And then it is just up to the BRA pilots if they want to "play the game" or not.
Just a tiny amount of sound judgement, and ability to see things from the other side, would be for the better for all of us!
Nick.
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"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
Scando: I have also registered what the CEO/SAS management has said, but there is a catch to it:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Braathens skal forbli Braathens så langt vi kan skue inn i fremtiden.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Braathens shall continue to be Braathens as far as we can look into the future.</font>
SAS have guaranteed for the BRA employees for two years. I think after two or three years, Braathens' future as a separate company will be much more uncertain.Heavydane: Seeing posts like yours always make me wonder if the originator uses the same kind of uncompromising judgement in other aspects of life. How's the CRM of a guy like this? How does he bring up his kids? What's his view on people from other cultures? Does he always walk around with water-combed hair wearing a brown shirt and a bandolier?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">"Never Linjeflyg again"</font>
The question is therefore: How do we avoid that in this case?
Your solution will most certainly destroy not just the working environment for BRA pilots, but the whole working environment for all pilots in our beloved company.
I don't know about you guys, but I look forward to every day at work. Which is mostly due to the motivated and inspiring colleagues I meet every day. I would gladly sacrifice a few places on the list to keep it that way. And I am cinvinced that the BRA pilots are just as motivated and inspiring as the SAS pilots are.
In my view, the size of the paycheck is slightly subordinated compared to the joy (or absence of joy) of going to work.
The "Hung-model" (or a similar one) should by far take care of this. And then it is just up to the BRA pilots if they want to "play the game" or not.
Just a tiny amount of sound judgement, and ability to see things from the other side, would be for the better for all of us!
Nick.
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"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
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Malte - I ment no disrespect towards you personally in my post. If percieved this way I appologize.
Guyes, lets acknowledge it a situation with many solutions and feelings involved
My opinion is no more worth that a BU FO, but I will ofcause resist loosing slots on the list if they should merge. I'm too old to be shafted again.
Where did you go after LIN, malte?
Guyes, lets acknowledge it a situation with many solutions and feelings involved
My opinion is no more worth that a BU FO, but I will ofcause resist loosing slots on the list if they should merge. I'm too old to be shafted again.
Where did you go after LIN, malte?
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Ahem. From an SAS jocks p.o.v. wouldn´t it be an advantage to get the BU guys incorporated into the list/company? Otherwise they´d just be yet another low(er) cost airline siphoning off business from mainline like Air Botnia, Skyways, Cimber, Maersk, etc.
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Hmmm, Tcas climb has a point. I never saw anyone calling Braathens take over of Transswede and later Malmö Aviation, a "merger". We flew around on BU numbers calling ourselves 'Braathens Sverige' and 'Braathens Malmö Aviation' with operational control in Norway, and nowhere were BU pilots with open arms welcoming us to the company AND seniority list. Even after Braathens ruined it all and made sure that over 70 pilots were fired(myself included), we still had to do an interview with Braathens 'Mainline' and their union rep:s, should we want to go there. A few tried that option but far from everyone was accepted. What made ex-Malmö and ex-Transwede pilots not worthy direct access to Braathens and what makes BU pilots worthy (in that case) direct entry to SAS?
I see no BU pilots urging for an interview now to go to SAS, only talk of seniority. It is very EASY when you are on the other side of the fence......
I'm NOT saying that is how things should be, all I'm saying is: how do BU pilots JUSTIFY it compared to the Malmö Aviation situation???
I see no BU pilots urging for an interview now to go to SAS, only talk of seniority. It is very EASY when you are on the other side of the fence......
I'm NOT saying that is how things should be, all I'm saying is: how do BU pilots JUSTIFY it compared to the Malmö Aviation situation???
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As I see it Hung`s suggestion could have some merrit, it might though create some problems in the FC department because that was the expansion.
Nick: no brown shirt here at least not on my own time! The problem as I see it, is no matter how You slice it, a lot of guys will feel screwed(again!!). Linjefly got a very sweet deal and still the working enviroment went sour.
That`s why: never Linjefly again.
Heavydane
Nick: no brown shirt here at least not on my own time! The problem as I see it, is no matter how You slice it, a lot of guys will feel screwed(again!!). Linjefly got a very sweet deal and still the working enviroment went sour.
That`s why: never Linjefly again.
Heavydane
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Scando, the owners of SAS want to make as much money as possible on their investment and how is that done? By keeping to separate administrations doing the same job? No of course not! A merger will happen, the only question is, when?
Hung-start, I´m not trying to stir up anything I´m simply interested in the opinions of other fellow pilots in this matter. It seems many of the replies are eager to point out that the deal is not a merger and thereby implying they would have the absolute right to treat the future collegues from Braathens any way they want. The same mentality was present at the time of the LIN-deal and was in my opninion one of the main reasons why it became so sour. It is very interesting and somewhat surprising to find the same attitude now!
Why is it important to merge lists? See my first reply!
The only way to merge lists as I see it (as well as IFALPA) is simply that everyone keeps their seniority. It is possible that some restrictions regarding bidding for base, type and so on would have to be introduced for a transitionperiod.
Swedish law is also supporting this. If a company has to lay off personnel it is their time employed that counts not their position on a "seniority list" that has taken into account who is buying who.
Hung-start, I´m not trying to stir up anything I´m simply interested in the opinions of other fellow pilots in this matter. It seems many of the replies are eager to point out that the deal is not a merger and thereby implying they would have the absolute right to treat the future collegues from Braathens any way they want. The same mentality was present at the time of the LIN-deal and was in my opninion one of the main reasons why it became so sour. It is very interesting and somewhat surprising to find the same attitude now!
Why is it important to merge lists? See my first reply!
The only way to merge lists as I see it (as well as IFALPA) is simply that everyone keeps their seniority. It is possible that some restrictions regarding bidding for base, type and so on would have to be introduced for a transitionperiod.
Swedish law is also supporting this. If a company has to lay off personnel it is their time employed that counts not their position on a "seniority list" that has taken into account who is buying who.
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Heavydane: For my "inner eye" you just changed! The shirt is off, your hair is fuzzy, your kids are running around screaming in the garden. You are "back" among my motivated, inspiring colleagues, who is worrying about what impact this BRA-deal will have on our working environment .
I guess we all agree on the goal, then, but not quite by which means to reach it.
Laminar has an interesting point: You will always keep your "employment seniority" (oppsigelsessenioritet) no matter what kind of deal the unions make. The same applies to Norwegian work laws too, which, I believe, will be used if SAS buys BRA.
This brings us to PropsAreForBoats' question: Apart from the "employment seniority" (what's the english word???) the seniority lists (regulating bidding, FC upgrade, wages etc.) is considered the unions "property." In the LIN case the SAS management tossed the monkey into the unions' arms and said: "Merge the seniority lists." But just how was up to the unions. -In effect: The SAS unions.
I hope I got this all right, but correct me if I'm wrong, you guys who "were there." (...as if I have to ask for that!)
Nick.
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"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
.I guess we all agree on the goal, then, but not quite by which means to reach it.
Laminar has an interesting point: You will always keep your "employment seniority" (oppsigelsessenioritet) no matter what kind of deal the unions make. The same applies to Norwegian work laws too, which, I believe, will be used if SAS buys BRA.
This brings us to PropsAreForBoats' question: Apart from the "employment seniority" (what's the english word???) the seniority lists (regulating bidding, FC upgrade, wages etc.) is considered the unions "property." In the LIN case the SAS management tossed the monkey into the unions' arms and said: "Merge the seniority lists." But just how was up to the unions. -In effect: The SAS unions.
I hope I got this all right, but correct me if I'm wrong, you guys who "were there." (...as if I have to ask for that!
)Nick.
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"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
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Going through all the postings I would like to add two comments:
First I find the discussion about a common senority list premature as we do not know the complete strategy behind SAS' buy of BRATHENS. We can only guess. I would think that the motivation behind the takeover, is to keep competitors away from a very lucrative norwegian market. Furthermore, I think that SAS would like to keep BRA under its own flag, thus keeping very loyal customers and maintaining (or pretending) a non monopaly role in the market.
Secondly, SAS has a tradition of investing heavily in other companies like Spanair, British Midland, Air Botnia etc. Its a simple business investment which you develope and perhaps sell for strategic reasons (like 20% stake in BM to Lufthansa for slot reasons). None of these companies are on the senority list and neither will BRA be. The market in Norway needs more than one major company and BRA are the perfect company to play the second role.
The benefits for SAS is to cut all mirroed
jobs ex. ground staff, sales & marketing, administration etc. All jobs to execute the flying will still be needed, so there is no need to worry - so far.
In my opinion, the BRA pilots should focus more on the oppotunities they are been giving by SAS, to develope BRA further into the future.
First I find the discussion about a common senority list premature as we do not know the complete strategy behind SAS' buy of BRATHENS. We can only guess. I would think that the motivation behind the takeover, is to keep competitors away from a very lucrative norwegian market. Furthermore, I think that SAS would like to keep BRA under its own flag, thus keeping very loyal customers and maintaining (or pretending) a non monopaly role in the market.
Secondly, SAS has a tradition of investing heavily in other companies like Spanair, British Midland, Air Botnia etc. Its a simple business investment which you develope and perhaps sell for strategic reasons (like 20% stake in BM to Lufthansa for slot reasons). None of these companies are on the senority list and neither will BRA be. The market in Norway needs more than one major company and BRA are the perfect company to play the second role.
The benefits for SAS is to cut all mirroed
jobs ex. ground staff, sales & marketing, administration etc. All jobs to execute the flying will still be needed, so there is no need to worry - so far.
In my opinion, the BRA pilots should focus more on the oppotunities they are been giving by SAS, to develope BRA further into the future.
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heavydane, hats off..much better this time
Laminar,
This was the one that I didn´t like. Again, why is it your "angle of attack", that solely the SAS pilots must show decency and fairness. It is darn easy for you to say, to guys like Nite_Flite and heavydane, who lost hundreds of places in the LIN deal, to just be "fair and not greedy", when they stand the risk of it all happening all over again.
I agree with heavydane; the LIN folks got a VERY sweet deal, and (some, not all) still don´t know to appreciate it.
You and I( together with most other SAS folks) obviously have major differences in how we view the LIN deal.
But hats off to you for a serious and constructive answer. Seriously.
Flap Sup, correct, but latest RUMOUR on base is, that the 10 options have been converted to orders..RUMOUR, I say!
Crewcut, In my opinion I believe that you are absolutely correct, and hope that the higher powers see things the same way.
Laminar,
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I smell greed, protectionism and illfounded fear of competition over jobs in some of the postings. There are recommendations given by IFALPA concerning situations like this and it would be an appropriate time for the SAS-unions to adhere to them and make up for all the greedy bad in the past.</font>
I agree with heavydane; the LIN folks got a VERY sweet deal, and (some, not all) still don´t know to appreciate it.
You and I( together with most other SAS folks) obviously have major differences in how we view the LIN deal.
But hats off to you for a serious and constructive answer. Seriously.
Flap Sup, correct, but latest RUMOUR on base is, that the 10 options have been converted to orders..RUMOUR, I say!
Crewcut, In my opinion I believe that you are absolutely correct, and hope that the higher powers see things the same way.
Guest
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Laminar, one more thing.
If I imply that the deal is not a merger, it is not meant in a way that "we buy ´em, so we can screw ´em" Not at all. I meant to say, that SAS bosses have all said (so far) that they won´t merge the two companies. i.e. they´ll continue to fly seperately, and as such, there´s no reason to even discuss a merger of senioritylists.
If I imply that the deal is not a merger, it is not meant in a way that "we buy ´em, so we can screw ´em" Not at all. I meant to say, that SAS bosses have all said (so far) that they won´t merge the two companies. i.e. they´ll continue to fly seperately, and as such, there´s no reason to even discuss a merger of senioritylists.
